how to kill a big bug list?

[Saxxon the Dragoon]

me and a good friend play fairly often, me my own space marine chapter : The Emperor's Dragoons, and my friend, tyranids. i have played him probably 20 or so times, and i have NEVER beaten him. here is my dilemma:

 

the usual game we play is about 1.5k to 2k in points, and heres his usual choices.

 

1 hive tyrant (with wings)

2 carnifexes (one of them having 5 wounds and initiative 2 among other things)

1 zoanthrope

2-3 squads of genestealers

 

(of course this wont all fit into a 1.5k list, but you get the gist)

 

and i have tried many different combinations of troops and armor to try and beat him, but i can never seem to do it. (my marines not being able to hit the broad side of a barn doesnt help much either) usually i can kill all the genestealers and maybe 1 of the carnifexes or hive tyrant, but i always run out of men before they run out of wounds. so can anyone help? (and if your going to tell me to get a libby into the fray, your getting a bolter shell inbetween your eyes, because he is one of the reasons i am able to fell a big bug every game. and i bring on every game)

[the jeske]

well being a nid player I say thats a pretty weak nids army [also whats 2/3 genestealers squads , because either he take more units then 3 or those units are bigger then 6 man , what is not optimal].

a normal sm army with lots of minimax and rending assault canons should have a good check against this lists . If you really worry about nids you can always take 2 dread in drop pods with hvy flamers and AC , more then enough to kill those counter genestealers .

 

Also this is not a big bugs lists . Those start from 4MC.

 

PS:tell your friend to switch the hth fex for shoty ones . a good player may move his army in a such a way , that the hth fexs will never get in to hth.

[Sigismund Himself]

Your search-fu is weak :wallbash:

 

Linky.

Linky 2

Linky 3

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

flamers flamers flamers....

hvy bolters and AC also work pretty good.

if u have a whirly i'd use castellan missiles force him into fire lanes for said flamers.

[Ju'kosian]

Whirlwinds and Dev squads with HB are deadly against Genestealers.

 

Combat carnifexes are slow and you can ignore them a while untill they get real close. Double tap them with plasma.

If he only has one tyrant and one zoanthrope he has little synapse in his army.

Carnifexes do have to take a test when out of synapse range, I can't recall if the same goes for genestelaers.

[moranimal]

Personally, I like Land Speeders tornadoes in this situation against Tyranids. AC or heavy flamers can do a number on the Genestealers. Certainly the AC will potentially put a world of hurt on the monstrous creatures. If you're using terrain, you can use it to your advantage as well.

[Roultox]

A flurry of bolters and powerfist sergeants with a good line of bodies to outnumber him badly would be a good choice. Scouts are a good choice here, as armor wont matter much in close combat unless he packs a lot of firepower on those bugs then maybe power armour would be better.

 

I prefer numbers, but thats me. If he packs a lot of 2+ save big bugs then some plasma might help you out there.

 

Trick for bearing down on genestealers. Scuttling or not, dont deploy on the line. deploy about 6" behind your deployment, this prevents him getting beyond 18" before your first shot with bolters, and it ensures you fire at least once, then the following turn you move forward and rapid-fire for a grand total of 3 shots per marine before melee. Enough firepower to wipe a genestealer squad 1 marine per stealer if he didnt buy carapace, and if he didnt get scuttle then you can stay still possibly to get one more shot in before moving in for rapid fire. If he bought both upgrades on that spendy 24 point model, then point per point marines still win out with this tactic. I use it and abuse it, nobody likes using genestealers against me. Even with a hormagaunt/gargoyle wall.

 

Marines are made to take on all situations, if you equip them properly, they can do just that. Without taking a bunch of vehicles and special troopers, you can take lots of marines. If you can take lots of marines that can do anything, then you have the odds in your favor. If they outgun you, terrain and narrow line of sight is your best friend. (Practice how to set up and pay attention to firing lanes)

 

If you can do all that properly with numbers of the all-powerful marines, you will always have the odds in your favor. Not that the dice will agree with you all the time. (point for point marines really should cost 19 points per model compared to other codexes basic troopers, some codexes some marines should cost 23 points! ~ but they only cost 15)

[I am Legion]

Ok as an old tyranid player who sold his army to his friend and now it's the main oppostion for me, let me explain a couple tactics that I use.

 

Firstly, it IS too hard to kill nids ( I play Blood Angels but that's besides the point). Nids drop like flies to two heavy vehicles: Take one whirlwind, one vindicator, and one all las predator. Now fill in the rest with tactical marines and a razorback for support (HB). I'm sure you'll have a few points left over (I'm used to playing him at 2000 points, which makes them near impossible to kill. Now with vanilla marines you'll have way more points left over then I do with BA. OH YEAH, make sure you take at least one dread with a droppod to kill those biovores that he's sure to use. also if he's not using 3 zoanthroapes then he doesn't know what he's doing. THOSE ARE your MAIN prioritys. that's good for now. tell me what you think. I'll try to post something with points. I'm interested in this kind of thread, because nids are a tough opponent. I don't think I'm bad at this game, but really that army is really powerful, and if I use them, I can really make a dirty list. When I used to play them in third out of close to a hundred games, I lost about a handful. It's just too much.

[Leethal]

Honor your Wagear. 24 Lascannon Devastators. By Turn 3, everything he owns will be down to one wound, or dead. And then you add 2 crappy scout squads, and a Bare bones Libby, with...a Jump pack? maybe a bike...but yea.

 

That list can take on alot of things. Powergaming lists, horde lists, MEQ's, Mechanized, Titans, etc.

 

Beardy? Yes

Cheesey? Yes

Should I be condemned to the fires of hell for thinking of this? Yes

Should I be burned for actually using this list on occasion, espcially against Iron Warriors and Godzilla lists? Perhaps.

Has a part of my soul died for doing this? Perhaps, but then Khorne already has my soul :)

[Brother SRM]

Take my Take All Comers Devvie Squad

2 heavy bolters

2 rocket launchers

The heavy bolters should work against the genestealers and maybe have a chance against the big guys, while the rocket launchers work either way. Alternatively, one squad of heavy bolters and one of rocket launchers. Best part is that the squads are pretty loving cheap.

[IamJacksUserName]

The answer to big bugs, is my answer to everything in 40k: LASCANNONS!

Take Lascannons in everything but your troops. In your troops choices take plasma and HB. Bolters and HB's mulch little bugs and plasma is there if the big ones get too close.

[Leethal]

The answer to big bugs, is my answer to everything in 40k: LASCANNONS!

Take Lascannons in everything but your troops. In your troops choices take plasma and HB. Bolters and HB's mulch little bugs and plasma is there if the big ones get too close.

 

I concur.

 

We need a Lascannon fan club.

[Wildfire]

moving to Tactics

[Gree]

That's funny, thetre is a guy at my clyu who takes three gaunt broods, a carnifex, two hive tyrants, two zoeanthrops, two genestealter squds, a squad of gargoyles, a squad of biovore. Can you possibly fit hat into a list?

[Primarch]

Backing 6inches off the line, firing once, then moving up and double tapping bolters should be good for alot of Genestealer killing. Take a couple(4-5) Lascannons to blow holes in the line if he hides them behind the big bugs, possibly a Dread with a heavy flamer, that will do nicely. Then put some powerfists in your tac squads. When the hth Carnies get there, just PF the crap outta him.

 

 

With Wolves, its gravy.

 

 

Also, we used a Drop Pod marine list all of last year, and at Adepticon, and never lost to a bug list. A few snipers, or Assault cannons help a bunch as well, at least in the current edition.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Clay

[I am Legion]

I just finished a game vs nids at 2000 points.

I play blood angels, so my strategies are a little different. A large enough Death Company will hold back 20 warriors armed to the teeth. my VAS can take 3 PF into each squad, which kills hive tyrants, and carnifexs the turn they charge, or are charged. stick a chaplain in there, and on the charge, they reroll to hits.

For normal marines though, It can be a bit harder, as you would rely on shooting. 2 whirlwinds are a must. An autocannon predator will also help. In the last game I used MM attack bikes to hunt down the 3 zoanthroapes, and 3 biovores. I also had 2 tornado land speeders, which just ruin hormaguants and warriors.

[Sully_32]

I also play blood angels and i recommend ACs... two baal preds can easily kill a single fex in one turn (well maybe two)

rending does it better than lascannons as you can get more shots which work well on the stealers too,

 

Currently in 4th ed you can't go wrong with rending so abuse it while you still can :nuke:

[Gothikhellfire]

hes a big bug genestealer army? simple just take 1 or 2 vindicators and problem solved. you could also drop a couple hvy flamer assault cannon dreads behind their forces.

[HotSoup]

Terminators. A biggish squad of assault termies can rip apart Fex army's. With furious charge, a chap to guide them(works great with BT....) you can slaughter all of the fex's. My 10 man thunder hammer squad+Chap killed 7 fex's. They only lost 3 of 240 saved from the firepower thrown at me, so that probably had something to do at it, but eh.

 

Since he has stealers as well, Id say a smallish Assault terminator squad with your librarian, and then some dakka. Predator destructors+heavy bolters, things like that. Land Speeders are good because they can kill fex's and the small fry.

[Gideon Bane]

That's funny, thetre is a guy at my clyu who takes three gaunt broods, a carnifex, two hive tyrants, two zoeanthrops, two genestealter squds, a squad of gargoyles, a squad of biovore. Can you possibly fit hat into a list?

 

That's 2 HQs, 5 Troops, 1 Fast Attack, and 3 Heavy Support. Loads of points to be sure but not straining the Force Organization to its limits.

[IronFather Tim]

Bug hunt,

 

6 5 man tac squads, vet sgt, 1/2 with missle launchers, and half with melts rifles,

 

3 vindicators power of the mech spirit reinforced armor and smoke

 

 

Landraider promethous and Comand squad terminators furous charge

terminator (2 assult cannons furous charge) squad and land raider crusader,

 

asult squad 5 man 3 plasma pistols

tech marine servo harnes 3 repair servitors and 1 plasma cannon

 

 

Iron father Tim

[Big J]

HEY THIS IS A MUST[u] DREADNOUGHT[/u]

 

 

He should be able to block your troops from any warriors

and also be a chalenge for any carnifexes or hive tyrants

as long as you can get your dreadnought to strike first and

the enemy has no more then 2 wounds

and the assault cannon is completly awesome against heavy units

(i.e carnifex and hive tyrant)

Also snipers also wound on a 4+ all the time so 8 shots for example they have to take at least one save

[Snugsmike]

Most of this advice is laughable at best.

 

There is some very useful tidbits of wisdom located in these posts, but usually it is all spoiled by the "simply use this! it mulches them! I am so awesome! I never lose to them!" attitude that totally invalidates anything said in the post. You'd think by reading these posts that NidZilla NEVER wins 40k tourneys, which is routinely does. You'd think Space Marines completely destroyed them everytime.

 

I'm suprised no one has said to get "Tyranid War Veterens," or the Bug Killer shells or whatever they are called. The point is is OF COURSE you can beat an army if you stack an army to beat it. Why would you ever get a lascannon against a little swarmy army? Why would you every get melta bombs against an army with no vehicles? Why would you get a flamer against a list with barely any units with a toughness less than 6??? In a tourney, you can't count on ANY OF THOSE THINGS! You have to be ready for everything, and in turn have to build a well rounded army list. This "I can't beat tyranid" thread has completely the wrong focus.

OF COURSE RENDING IS GOOD VERSUS CARNIFEXES!

OF COURSE HEAVY FLAMERS AND HEAVY BOLTERS ARE GOOD AGAINST GENESTEALERS!

Going by this, all you need to do is get those models and put them in your army and you'll beat Tyranids! Duh!

WRONG!

Oh crap, I forgot that AC only shoots 24" and that the shooty fex shoots 36"... and my dread just got owned because of it! Shucks! It's funny how two strength 10 and a strength 8 large blast totally demolishes a 12 armored walker when it's outranged by a foot. Or your 10 armored skimmers.

Oh crap, I forgot that those genestealers fleet and just ran over a foot to charge me. It sucks that my flamer never did a thing. Oh and that they just had 20+ rending attacks against those termies. With 2 better initative.

Oh crap, I forgot that that hive tyrant just flew into range of his 2 TL Devs and actually wounded 11 of my marines in one round of firing. Or I just got owned by acid mines. Or my assault guys are having a hard time assaulting because someone is scarily screaming in their ears. Or that rear end of your indirect firing tank just got smashed by a lictor.

Simply getting specific models does nothing. Getting specific guns does nothing. Zip. Zero. Zilch.

The bit about keeping your Marines off of the front line, dropping em back 6" to get a turn firing, then getting a rapid fire next turn, now THAT is something that's useful! It's something that can help you handle Genestealers when they are salivating and running at your little men, other than hoping simply getting a more heavy bolters than normal or "drop podding DREADNAUGHTS!" will save them.

 

SO what do I have to add?

Well, being a tyranid and spacemarine player, along with playing against both armies often, I can offer this:

Avoid the charge at all costs. If he manages to get gaunts and stealers to your men, you need to use all of your careful calculating and guesstimation to make sure he doesn't get the charge on you, and if he does, that you get a counter charge with your hth dudes. Simple sounding, but if used, will lessen the impact of the little beasts.

If he is foolish enough to use big, expensive hand to hand carnifexes, simply stay away from them. This may mean he will plop it on a table quarter, or objective or whatever, but usually, it's a ridic overly expensive model that's functioning as a single scoring unit.

With that said, never spread shots out on Tyranid Monsterous Creatures. Focus fire. 5 TMCs with 3 wounds each is at the end of the game is the same as 5 TMCs with no wounds. But focus those on each one, and you have 3 dead carnifexes. Wounded TMC's count for NOTHING!

Utilize the Carnifexes slow speed, relatively short range (36" vs your lascannons), and large size against them. If you can give him some good targets (or what he thinks is a good target) that will lure one of the beasts out from behind his height 3 hiding spot so he can try to get in range of whatever he is trying to shoot at, you have a good chance of focus firing your heavy weapons on it and making a dead giant beasty. This is easier to do if you effectively spread his deployment out. If you get his sniperfexes in the corners of the map, he will be out of range of an awful lot of guys for most of the fight. Remember this when setting up your height three terrain at the beginning of the game. If you can keep it near the corners and not give him much to hide his shooty fexes behind, it will be that much easier later to focus on them in the open. Not to many places to hide those big goons.

Shooty fexes are horrid at hth combat. Powerfists with some bodies in front can be the bane of them. Getting them there is the trick. I usually find the drop pods to be not so fearsome because I can usually toss some str 8 pinning pie plates on them right when the climb out and they are all close together. Plus, I usually will hang some sort of hth guy near so I can help defend my shootys. What I fear is the powerfisted chaplin with a jetpack and assault squad, hopping behind LOS blocking cover, before landing and charging my beasts at full strength. *shutter*

Hive tyrants are better than carnifexes. You should be killing these first. Something about rerolling 12 str 5 shots and rerolling wounds seems to be a little awesome, effective at about 30".

Land speeders can be a huge nusiance, but only if kept very safe. Sniperfexes totally destroy these things... but they can put a hurt on a fex. It's like a mongoose and cobra relationship. It all depends on who uses their models more effectively. Keep out of range or LOS until you can swoop in with the squad and toss an absurd number of rending shots on the beast, hopefully killing it before it retaliates and kills your dudes.

Power armor is pretty awesome. Your troops should breathe easy knowing that they will almost ALWAYS be using their 3+ armor save. Your vehicles are not so lucky, there will be an abundance of glancing hits flying around... use your men as bait to draw the large monsters into firing lanes of your heavy weapons and vehicles. Focus fire!

When fighting genestealers, I find getting a transport vehicle between what he is trying to run at and charge can make a huge difference. Again, avoid the charge, get the counter charge at least.

Another thing I find useful is making them count on a good fleet roll. If you can get your opponent thinking that it's worth it to get his genestealers out in the open because if he rolls a 6 on his fleet roll he will get the charge, you will be made in the shade. If he's gambling on getting a 6 on one dice roll to get his guys into HtH, encourage him to make the gamble! It's a bad bet! Obviously, you will eat it hard 1 out of 6 times, but the other 5 times should involve a whole bunch of dead stealers. And you'll still have your genes.

Also, relatively cheap scouts can really do some damage to big targets with their sniper rifles. They can be that one or two last wounds you need! Keep them safe!

I hope this helps! <_<

[Big J]

yeah but no need to be like that

 

we're just trying to help

 

and by the way back peddeling is really basic I took it for granted that he was already doing that

[KhornnBezrkr]

the guy is right though... you can't build an army that is only one point focused. Your individual squads should without a doubt be focused and not try to do everything but your army in general should be well rounded.

To the actual question, i have found in my experience with the big guys is that heavy weapons like plasma guns will weaken while a squad of lightening claw termies will finish them off. This isn't as stupid as it sounds because i personally do consider points and try to get that perfect balance of toughness and point conservency. The squads with the two plasma guns can make short work of genestealers though his is better against big bugs and you should use a weapon like an AC on a dreadnaught or heavy bolter and the termies can float throughout the field picking off whoever. ( The guns I mentioned are multi useful and are a great idea to have in an army. They are all great against infantry from medium to heavy and the plasma and AC can be effective against light vehicles