Warrior Of Ultramar Posted April 10, 2008 Share Posted April 10, 2008 Something thats been bugging me these last few days: In Horus Rising, It is stated that the Emperor told Horus that his 20 sons all embodied one of the 20 Zodiac signs. When looking at this more closely, i came across an obvious flaw: there are only 12 Zodiac signs; Aquarius, Pisces, Aries, Taurus, Gemini, Cancer, Leo, Virgo, Libra, Scorpio, Sagittarius, and Capricorn. Admittedly, this was the 31st millenium, and so it is entirely probable that humanity had found a few more signs in the sky. The question i pose is: What emotions do our 12 signs embody? Which of the Primarchs is best fitted to which sign? and what of the 'missing' 8? Are there even 20 human emotions? more? less? Thoughts? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/133892-the-primarchs-what-emotions-did-they-embody/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord_Caerolion Posted April 11, 2008 Share Posted April 11, 2008 I've seen a good post linking the Primarchs to the Tarot cards of the Major Arcana, its a scarily precise match. 20 of them, and the relationships between the cards match precisely the relationships between the corresponding Primarchs. However, I think that linking the Primarchs to "emotions" is a bit too vague to get definite links, as no-one would be able to come up with a complete list of emotions. What would be classed as a separate emotion by you might not necessarily be me, etc. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/133892-the-primarchs-what-emotions-did-they-embody/#findComment-1541235 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ubermensch Commander Posted April 11, 2008 Share Posted April 11, 2008 I agree w/ Lord Caerolin that emotions is a bit too vague to narrow down. As for 20 emotions, i would say more...especially when you have gradations of it. example: irritation, anger, HATE, RAGE. Closely related.....but seperate? not seperate? blah anyway. I think trying to line the Primarchs up to the Zodiac would be quite interesting, although we would have to allow for missing signs. i dont have a ready solution to that, except perhaps to accept that some primarchs would be left out. This might lead to discussion over "which ones fit best" *shrug* i am hesistant to "make up" new ones...i think they might end up a bit tailored to specific Primarchs Going with Lord of the Night's interpretation of Night Haunter, i would be tempted to say that Night Haunter may be pisces, with to the two ends of himself tugging in not so harmonious counter balance. Though frankly...im stumped...which one of the primarchs would be Libra or Virgo? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/133892-the-primarchs-what-emotions-did-they-embody/#findComment-1541267 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warmaster Phthisis Posted April 11, 2008 Share Posted April 11, 2008 I'd be interested in finding out which primarch is Scorpio? The lazy answer would be Angron, but I'd say Angron is more of a Taurus. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/133892-the-primarchs-what-emotions-did-they-embody/#findComment-1541295 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ubermensch Commander Posted April 11, 2008 Share Posted April 11, 2008 I'd be interested in finding out which primarch is Scorpio? The lazy answer would be Angron, but I'd say Angron is more of a Taurus. Dude, dont forget about Aries! Angron would be a goat headed God o War :D Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/133892-the-primarchs-what-emotions-did-they-embody/#findComment-1541297 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weiss Posted April 11, 2008 Share Posted April 11, 2008 Well, Alpharius would be Gemini... ;) Lion El'Johnson would be Leo (not because of his name, but his courage, etc... Though Russ could fit that sign too. Saggitarius is Horus Virgo for Sanguinius? Taurus, I would say, would be either Ferrus Manus, Rogal Dorn or Perturabo. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/133892-the-primarchs-what-emotions-did-they-embody/#findComment-1541463 Share on other sites More sharing options...
IhateSpaceMarines Posted April 11, 2008 Share Posted April 11, 2008 Whos the Capricon then ? Lorgar ? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/133892-the-primarchs-what-emotions-did-they-embody/#findComment-1541466 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pulse Posted April 11, 2008 Share Posted April 11, 2008 Lion El'Johnson would be Leo (not because of his name, but his courage, etc... Though Russ could fit that sign too. So could Dorn though. :P Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/133892-the-primarchs-what-emotions-did-they-embody/#findComment-1541520 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Kardon Posted April 11, 2008 Share Posted April 11, 2008 anyone ever thought that you myt be reading too deap into the primarchs? are you shaw gw even thought this far about them? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/133892-the-primarchs-what-emotions-did-they-embody/#findComment-1541546 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eiric Hakon Posted April 11, 2008 Share Posted April 11, 2008 anyone ever thought that you myt be reading too deap into the primarchs? ^_^ but IMHO it's an interesting thing to do... My take on the Primarch-Zodiac link is: Fulgrim: Virgo Russ: Leo Rogal Dorn: Capricorn? Sanguinius: Sagittarius ^_^ Angron: Aries Mortarion: Capricorn? Magnus: Scorpio Horus: Gemini? I find that some fit and others don't, but it's realy down to the individual... links to Tarot cards? could someone elaborate please? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/133892-the-primarchs-what-emotions-did-they-embody/#findComment-1541615 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Angelwinged Posted April 11, 2008 Share Posted April 11, 2008 I dont know if the wording is correct. Does it specifically say there are 20 zodiac signs? There are not obviously. So maybe they meant that the 20 primarchs each embodied one of the 12 signs...so maybe multiple scorpios' virgo's ect ect. It sounds odd that GW would screw something up like that. There are only really two human emotions, and all others come from them. Fear and Love. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/133892-the-primarchs-what-emotions-did-they-embody/#findComment-1541698 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warrior Of Ultramar Posted April 11, 2008 Author Share Posted April 11, 2008 One of my mates and myself have the following suggestion, following the idea of instead using the 21 Tarot cards of the 'Major Arcana' from Lord_Caerolion, which are: The Fool, The Magician, The High Priestess, The Empress, The Emperor, The Hierophant, The Lovers, The Chariot, Strength, The Hermit, Wheel of Fortune, Justice, The Hanged Man, Death, Temperance, The Devil, The Tower, The Star, The Moon, The Sun, Judgement, and The World. Lion'el Johnson - Strength EXPUNGED - Empress or Hermit Fulgrim - The Star Perturabo - Wheel of Fortune Jaghatai Khan - The Chariot Leman Russ - The World Rogal Dorn - The Tower Konrad Curze - The Moon Sanguinius - Temperance Ferrous Manus - EXPUNGED - Empress or Hermit Angron - The Devil Guilliman - Justice Mortarion - Death Magnus the Red - The Magician Horus - The Hanged Man Lorgar - The Hierophant Vulkan - Corax - Judgement Alpharious/Omegon - The Lovers The Emperor - The Emperor http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tarot These came from the Wikipedia entry on the 'Major Arcana', we were unable to find anything to match the Fool, The High Priestess, or the Sun, and conversely Ferrous Manus and Vulkan seem to not fit any of these remaining cards. To be honest, A lot of these don't fit very well, but they were the best fits we came up with. Thoughts? Your own interpretations? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/133892-the-primarchs-what-emotions-did-they-embody/#findComment-1541812 Share on other sites More sharing options...
War Angel Posted April 11, 2008 Share Posted April 11, 2008 in 38,000 years new stars would be born and current ones die. the sky as we see it on earth would likly have changed and the constilations that we have would possibly be frogotten and new ones made up. chances are good that thoes 20 zodiac sign's that the 20 primarch's are represenitive of dont even exsist at the moment. and tarot cards, will eather not exsist or probly have also changed. lots of information on tech that we have nowadays dosnt exsist in the future, its could very well be the same for these things. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/133892-the-primarchs-what-emotions-did-they-embody/#findComment-1541831 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beef Posted April 11, 2008 Share Posted April 11, 2008 Russ would have to be tuarus due to his stubborness me thinks or Leo due to his courage. Ok all the primarchs were courageous but Russ was just to damn courageous for his own good. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/133892-the-primarchs-what-emotions-did-they-embody/#findComment-1541861 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bigger-than-Jesus Posted April 12, 2008 Share Posted April 12, 2008 The old Zodiac had 20 symbols in it, not 12 Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/133892-the-primarchs-what-emotions-did-they-embody/#findComment-1542535 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord_Caerolion Posted April 14, 2008 Share Posted April 14, 2008 The links between Primarch and Tarot cards you gave, Warrior of Ultramar, some of them are correct, but I'll post the connections this guy put up. They way he did it, they all do fit their cards, and so do the relationships between them. By the way, the Fool is the Emperor, and the World is the Imperium. Magus=Magnus High Priestess=Unknown Empress=Fulgrim Emperor=Horus Hierophant=Lorgar Lovers=Alpharius Chariot=Roboute Guilliman Justice=Ferrus Manus Hermit=Lion El'Jonson Fortune=Unknown Strength=Vulkan The Hanged Man=Sanguinius Death=Mortarion Temperance=Jaghatai Khan The Devil=Perturabo The Tower=Angron The Star=Corax The Moon=Conrad Kurze The Sun=Rogal Dorn The Last Judgement=Leman Russ Here's the link, to see how the guy justified his decisions, and the links between the cards. You'll see what I mean about scarily precise matches. Whats even funnier is it seems that the Heresy might have been avoided if High Priestess-Primarch and Fortune-Primarch were there at the time. However, because they were missing, they weren't there to keep the other Primarchs from allowing their natures to influence them too much, and as such the Heresy occurred/Legions fell who wouldn't have/Ultramarines became too strict, etc. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/133892-the-primarchs-what-emotions-did-they-embody/#findComment-1543866 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warrior Of Ultramar Posted April 15, 2008 Author Share Posted April 15, 2008 very nice indeed! i would still query a few though, i mean, he's got the hanged man as sanginius, yet the wiki entry and other places has that card down as being the ultimate bad guy, the arch traitor. Which is why i chose horus. i guess its all down to personal opionions though. What about the rest of you? what do you, reading this, think? How would you match the cards to the primarchs? lets see some nice ideas!! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/133892-the-primarchs-what-emotions-did-they-embody/#findComment-1545480 Share on other sites More sharing options...
IhateSpaceMarines Posted April 16, 2008 Share Posted April 16, 2008 Wow that was a frighteningly accurate description of the cards and the primarsh :) he's got the hanged man as sanginius, yet the wiki entry and other places has that card down as being the ultimate bad guy Meh Wiki can mess somethings up, i think the main characteristic of the hangedman is that he follows his fate regardless of the consequence, along those lines. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/133892-the-primarchs-what-emotions-did-they-embody/#findComment-1545797 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord_Caerolion Posted April 16, 2008 Share Posted April 16, 2008 As his link states the Hanged Man is: Regardless of what is going on under the surface, the Hanged Man will appear accepting, calm and unperturbed. There may well be a mischevious streak to his nature, though it will only show through to people who know him well. The Hanged Man is permanently on the edge of the abyss and can call upon, or accidently fall into, both the inescapable revolutionary power of Death or the fatalistic gloom of the Moon. He will be particularly intense in personality, usually manifesting as absolute calm and poise but also affecting his darker moments. The Hanged Man will be extremely intelligent and intuitive, and possibly slightly psychic. This will not be something he has particular control over, at least early on. Rather it will manifest in his darkest times, and if he comes to rely too much on this aspect of himself he may consciously or unconsciously take to self-abuse to trigger it. It is quite possible that he will in some way combine the best qualities of the Chariot (valour), Death (power), the Moon (intuition) and the High Priestess (grace) without falling to their flaws (insecurity, morbidity, fatalism, and misdirection). On the flip side he is quite suseptable to all of these flaws. However as one of only two Primarchs representing pure elements (the other being the Last Judgement) he is more likely to transcend what in others would be fatal flaws. At best, calm, magnetic, influential, contemplative, and highly intuitive. At worst, fatalistic, morbid, self-abusive, insecure, hesitant, and makes unnecessary sacrifices. Seems like a perfect match to me. Calm, psychic, intuitive, and intelligent, as well as fatalistic, morbid and the making of unnecessary sacrifices. The other thing you have to look at is not only how each card matches the Primarch, but how the cards relate to each other. If you look at how the Hanged Man (Sunguinius) relates to the Emperor (Horus), you get: Complete opposites, they may equally come into conflict or appreciate the balance they can give each other. Also, lets look at how the Emperor relates to some of the others: The relationship would certainly curb the Empress's tendency towards self-satisfaction and idleness, but also bring out the potential to slide into excess. Ultimately the Emperor is in control here, and whatever things may look like on the surface he always gets the Empress going his way. Tension. Have differing plans they want to set in motion. The Emperor simply wants to rule, regardless of how or why, whereas the Chariot wants to establish certainty and security. May come to additional conflict over the Tower (Angron). The Emperor knows exactly how to use the Tower's abilities to best advantage, and doesn't hesitate to do so. Because of this the relationship is not as strained as it could easily become, both having considerable pride. A very strong pair, the Emperor establishing identity and the Sun maintaining it. The Sun is happy to work under the Emperor's direction, as long as it does not conflict with his own principles, and is a strong and valued advisor keeping the Emperor from overextending himself. So yeah, the Emperor is definitely Horus, as you can see by the relations between the cards. Sanguinius very much matches the personality, however the only link I know he really had was between himself and Horus, and as this says, it has both the potential for them to become best friends, or to destroy each other. And what do you know, thats what happens! The only one I'm not entirely sure with of his is the Strength=Vulkan link, but we basically know nothing about Vulkan, and he certainly matches none of the other cards, plus this one seems to fit him. Really though, the links between the Primarchs and Tarot make me think this is actually what they based the Primarchs on, and as again, what do you know? Two missing primarchs, two Tarot cards that bring balance to the rest, and stop them from becoming too unstable. So now we know why there are two missing Legions, if the tarot theory is true, because if they were there, the Heresy most likely wouldn't have taken place. Magnus would be told not to be so arrogant/uptight, the Night Haunter would learn how to deal with his visions, Lorgar wouldn't be so religious, and therefore not turn, and Horus would have the High Priestess as a more balanced advisor. However, it seems that Perturabo, Angron, Alpharius and Mortarion would have turned anyway, as these Primarchs don't stabilise them. Even so, 16 Legions against 4 isn't really all that big of a threat for the Imperium, so the Heresy probably wouldn't have occurred Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/133892-the-primarchs-what-emotions-did-they-embody/#findComment-1545846 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Antio Posted April 16, 2008 Share Posted April 16, 2008 If only the legions numbers matched up as well, then i'd just take it as canon strait away :) You say that the others would turn anyway since the 2 missing do not balance them, thats not entirely true. the two missing primarchs balance some, but by those being sorted they would not influence the others unjustly. being balanced allows them to balance the others. it only needs 1 to be missing for all the links to unravel. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/133892-the-primarchs-what-emotions-did-they-embody/#findComment-1545982 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warrior Of Ultramar Posted April 16, 2008 Author Share Posted April 16, 2008 It would be interesting to see what Jervis Johnson makes of all of this :D He'd probs natter something about 'reading too deep' ;) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/133892-the-primarchs-what-emotions-did-they-embody/#findComment-1546021 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord_Caerolion Posted April 16, 2008 Share Posted April 16, 2008 Well, they had to change it somehow, otherwise they're taking a bit too much. As for the "one missing brings them all down", it seems that yes, the Magus could balance the Lovers, nothing really balances Mortarion, he can only get on well with people, same with Perturabo, Mortarion can balance Angron, however Mortarions own lack of balancing Primarchs means that that is useless. And no, most of the relations aren't about balancing others, most of the relations are "will get on well" "may disagree over things", "may become rivals", that sort of stuff. The rarer relations are the "gives him more confidence", "teach the Moon how to handle his gifts", etc, and its both Fortune and the High Priestess that have the most of these "balancing" relations. The High Priestess balances the Magus, Empress, Emperor, Hierophant, and Moon. Fortune balances the Chariot, Justice, and Moon. Whats more is the fact that both these Primarchs seem to have almost "mediator" personalities. In both their relations to the Devil, it gives hints that they feel empathy towards their brothers, the Devil being suspicious of the High Priestess "advice and approach, wary of his motives in reaching out to him," whereas his relation to Fortune is strained because he cannot stand being pitied. It should also be noted that the High Priestess feels uncomfortable around the Devil, as it is the Primarch he has the most trouble reading, implying that the High Priestess has very strong "people skills", for want of a better word(s). The Priestess is described as being: able to give people a sense of belonging in the wider sceme of things. In dealing with people he give the impression of seeing everyone as if they were his closest, dearest companion, and can read them as if they were. He is always aware of everyone's hopes, doubts, secrets and hidden motives. Always willing to listen and lend advice, but rarely without being asked first. The High Priestess is ultimately the one who can communicate an understanding of the highest goals of the Fool to the rest of the system, individually and in ways they can each understand. At best, a being of pure divine grace, calm, guiding, illuminating, and capable of giving a deep sense of belonging. Basically, he's the one to explain to all the Primarchs the reason they are as they are, and how they fit into the grand plan. He explains it in ways they can understand, and this understanding would probably make the Primarchs realise why the Emperor went back to Terra, and explain to Lorgar the reason behind his rebuffal. Also, Fortune is described as: One of the most understanding of people's need for faith.He understands that true order cannot be achieved through stasis and must allow some flexibility. Like the Empress, Fortune will value personal relationships and attempt to draw his brothers together so they can understand their greater purpose. As again, we have a Primarch seemingly created to keep the brotherhood together. Whereas he doesn't have the High Priestesses knowledge, he seems to be a friend to all the Primarchs, with no relation that is an outright "they won't like each other". The worst of the relations are "If the Magus is too withdrawn and arrogant he will have trouble getting along with Fortune", or just doctrinal differences. So yes, it is both of these Primarchs that seem to be the ones that, were they there, the whole Heresy would have been avoided. Lorgar wouldn't have felt shunned, and so wouldn't have corrupted Horus, who even so won't have felt ignored by the Emperor. Angron would still rage, but the rage would be contained, and given proper focus. Mortarion would have had the necessity of his place in the Legions explained. Perturabo, probably the same as Angron, but would have people to open up to. Conrad Kurze would have had learned to use his visions properly, block them out, and not be so fatalistic. Fulgrim wouldn't have been so arrogant. Magnus would have learned that he really shouldn't keep studying sorcery. When I said "These would always turn" before, I forgot to do what I told WarriorOfUltramar, and didn't look at what the effects of having the other Primarchs staying would be, and that some went traitor, such as Angron and Alpharius, only due to their links with Horus. And Mortarion/Perturabo wouldn't turn for the above reasons, plus they also fell due to their links with Horus. Remove his treachery, and you have basically none of the other primarchs turning. ****SPOILERS**** And the Cabal would have had no reason to contact Alpharius/Omegon. ****END SPOILERS**** So with them present, the Primarchs become the brotherhood they were always intended to be *insert sappy Disney-style music here*. EDIT: And if JJ said that, I'd laugh at him, and point out yet again how much of a perfect match the Primarchs make to the Tarot. That cannot be coincidence. I mean, 1 or 2 matching the Tarot cards, that I can deal with. But all 18 known? And the two missing being the ones that would have been able to prevent the Heresy? Thats really taking 'coincidence' that bit too far. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/133892-the-primarchs-what-emotions-did-they-embody/#findComment-1546026 Share on other sites More sharing options...
kil78 Posted April 16, 2008 Share Posted April 16, 2008 while I may not agree that primarchs started off with this in mind( I belive in the homage to rome/create your own theory for the missing ones) this may be part of the structure of the HH books. spolier possibly the cabal could have even had a hand in their disaperance in order to turn humans into "the weapon that could defeat chaos". Especally as they have been mucking about on earth for some time. heck they could even be the ones that scattered the primarchs in the first place just to try to get that result. I mean everyone assumes that chaos did it ,but... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/133892-the-primarchs-what-emotions-did-they-embody/#findComment-1546302 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Antio Posted April 16, 2008 Share Posted April 16, 2008 Its a very good point and again one of those things you only see when pointed out. whether this is reading in too deep or just lack of observation before. As for the tarot cards, would actually be very interesting to ask JJ. now quite want one of the writers to put in something like the last vision given to horus before he dies being how the primarchs should have worked and them all together and friends! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/133892-the-primarchs-what-emotions-did-they-embody/#findComment-1546414 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord_Caerolion Posted April 17, 2008 Share Posted April 17, 2008 while I may not agree that primarchs started off with this in mind( I belive in the homage to rome/create your own theory for the missing ones) this may be part of the structure of the HH books. As I said before, I find it too hard to believe that the Primarchs were made without this in mind when their personalities were made. Perhaps when they were originally made, when they were still "Chapter Masters", they were created with the Roman Legions thing in mind, but seriously, all known Primarchs matching the Tarot cards, that really is too big a coincidence. And as for the idea written by kil78, I don't believe that the Primarchs were scattered to fight Chaos. My ideas are that they were scattered by Chaos, or that they were placed by the Emperor on their respective planets, like it hints with Guilliman, so that they could grow to fully match their respective card, and therefore the role alloted to them. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/133892-the-primarchs-what-emotions-did-they-embody/#findComment-1546523 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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