The Primarchs - What emotions did they embody?

[Corax_rg]

+POSSIBLE SPOILERS+

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Ah, kil78, it was not the cabal, but the chaos gods.

 

I read somewhere that the emperor bartered with them for power and or psychic powers for the primarchs.

 

Once the gods had delivered their side of the bargain, the Emperor backed out.

 

So in retaliation, the gods scattered his sons.

 

Please forgive me if this is a figment of my imagination or not proper/ canon fluff.

 

Im certain it was in one of the first three HH novels.

[kil78]

I think the chaos gods told horus that

[flintlocklaser]

Here's the link, to see how the guy justified his decisions, and the links between the cards. You'll see what I mean about scarily precise matches.

 

It's an interesting read, but I get the feeling that the guy justified all his decisions by writing all the 'justifications' himself. Several of his interpretations of the cards have stuff added to them that I've never seen in any traditional interpretations of the Tarot (ps I don't believe in any of this mumbo-jumbo, but I've done a lot of reading on it because it's fascinating). And some of his interpretations go in the opposite direction of the traditional readings, in my opinion solely to generate a good 'match' between the Primarch and the card he has chosen to represent them - the Devil/Perturabo is possibly the most glaring example. He's omitted card 21 (The World) entirely, probably because there weren't 21 primarchs. Now I will admit I haven't read every single possible school of Tarot interpretation - I'm mainly familiar with A.E. Waite's guide and some of the "Jungian" reads, so this might all be taken from one of the many, many newer Tarot interpretation schools out there. But it all seems too convienent to me, and there are too many of his entries that seem to 'gild the lily' in an effort to move the reader from thinking 'ok, that's sort of a match' to 'OMG that is exactly what that Primarch is like!' Maybe I'm wrong, but with no attributions to a primary source and interpretations that wander pretty far afield from their traditional meanings in order to read more like Warhammer, I (respectfully) call shenanigans - but it's well-done shenanigans in any event! If someone wanted to base some game stuff off of it, I think it would be well-recieved, and I'd have no problems with buying it or playing in a game environment based on this work.

 

To me, the bigger, and funnier issue in this whole zodiac/Tarot thing is that supposedly the Emperor Himself said that the Primarchs represented the signs of the Zodiac - but isn't the Emperor, and his Empire at this point in time, supposed to be arch-materialist in its viewpoint? This would be like members of an atheist organization trying to figure out which one of them was the most like which saint...

 

edit: fixed confusing punctuation

[Lord_Caerolion]

In his interpretation, the World card represents the Imperium, just as the Fool represents the Emperor.

I'll admit, I know basically nothing about the tarot, so I can't really judge how accurate this really is.

[flintlocklaser]

In his interpretation, the World card represents the Imperium, just as the Fool represents the Emperor.

I'll admit, I know basically nothing about the tarot, so I can't really judge how accurate this really is.

 

Ok, the World=Imperium makes good sense. I can't find where he discusses that or the Fool/Emperor card, but it's a solid matchup. And following his 'qabala' link goes to a version of the Tree of Life/Sephiroth (no, not the foo-foo guy from the Final Fantasy games) where he's replaced the actual sephira with stuff from 40k, like the 4 major chaos gods, etc. His work on matching stuff from 40k into the Sephiroth is pretty interesting as well, possibly better fitting than his stuff with the Tarot. This could of course be because I am more familiar with the Tarot than I am with anything kabbalistic. Still, I am not trying to slag the guy, it's definitely good gaming material and pretty creative. Tip of the hat to this cat, whoever he may be!

[Weiss]

I think the Emperor was just trying to make a point to Horus, and used old imagery to get it across...

[Frost Knight]

i think that Perturabo should be the tower cause hes got that thing with Siegeing stuff

[Lord_Caerolion]

but the Tower doesn't represent Siege in the Tarot, despite what an actual tower is associated with. When you look at the characteristics associated with it, Perturabo definitely isn't a Tower. From what little I know, and what that guy wrote, he's definitely a Devil, and Angron the Tower.

[BrotherConnor]

no offense but wouldnt it be clearer to matc them with the zodiac signs and earlier in this htread someone posted that there were oiginally 20 zodiac signs. after assigning them to there respective primarchs you could match your sign with theres. ijust thought that would be kind of interesting to see which primarch you are.

[Lord_Caerolion]

Yes, but someones already done a Tarot/Primarch match up, and no-one can agree over a Zodiac Primarch match-up, mainly because everyone's using different sorts of Zodiacs, or thinks differently to the person trying to write it. This tarot one though, although flintlocklaser kind of disagrees with some of them, it is pretty much a perfect match, not only with traits, but with how they relate to each other.

I'm starting to think that the Zodiac/Primarch link was put in to hint that they were linked to an old sort of occult system, but not necessarily the actual one they used for reference.

[thelastonestanding]

I can't remember where I read it but I thought that the Primarchs were scattered by the Chaos Gods onto human planets as to start they were perfect but living amongst average humans they would pick up flaws which would ultimately lead to there downfall. Like how Lorgar (Word Bearers) was raised on a religious planet and when the Emperor came he wanted to worship him but when the Emperor refused he turned to Chaos and set in motion the events that lead to the Horus Heresy.

[Lord_Caerolion]

But the Ultramarine IA suggests that the Emperor placed them, which is supported, kind of, by the Tarot theory, as they were placed on worlds that would compliment their own personalities and roles.

[Contaminus]

This has actually gone pretty off topic since the original question was what star signs they embody if I remember correctly. However, since there are only 12 zodiac signs in the conventional system, I think we should probably use the lunar zodiac instead of the solar one which has 20 constellations in it:

 

Pisces - the Fishes

Cetus - the Whale

Aries - the Ram

Taurus - the Bull

Orion - the Hunter

Auriga - the Charioteer

Gemini - the Twins

Cancer - the Crab

Leo - the Lion

Sextans - the Sextant

Virgo - the Maiden

Crater - the Cup

Corvus - the Crow

Libra - the Scales

Scorpius - the Scorpion

Ophiuchus - the Serpent Bearer

Sagittarius - the Archer

Scutum - the Shield

Capricornus - the Sea Goat

Aquarius - the Water Carrier

 

I- Lion El'Jonson: Leo. Proud, creative, dignified, kingly and powerful. That and the obvious lion connections associated with Jonson.

II- UNKOWN: Pisces. Thought to be mysterious aswell as benevolent, self-sacrificing, perceptive and creative.

III- Fulgrim: Virgo. Cool, analytical, meticulous, intelligent, refined and perfectionistic.

IV- Peturabo: Cancer. Security-oriented with the heavy armour of a crab. Insecure, devious, cold and depressive.

V- Jaghatai Khan: Auriga. The Charioteer. Riding forward with blades of fury to smite the enemies of the Emperor.

VI- Leman Russ: Orion. Russ was discovered by a band of hunters and his legion’s wolflike senses made them excellent trackers.

VII- Rogal Dorn: Scutum. The shield of the Emperor who’s legion built the Fortress of Terra.

VIII- Konrad Curze: Aquarius. Constantly bearing the burden of his visions like a weighty jug of water on his shoulders. Aquarius is often associated with King Odyssseus of Ithaca; thought by some to be a hero and by others as a villain.

IX- Sanguinius: Crater. The Cup. As a symbol associated with the Blood Angels, I thought it appropriate.

X- Ferrus Manus: Ophiuchus. He who slew the Great Silver Wyrm and bears the marks of the serpent still.

XI- UNKOWN: Sextans. Observes things from afar.

XII- Angron: Taurus. The stubborn and wrathful bull. Charges into conflict with fury and bloodlust and gores many on his horns.

XIII- Roboute Guilliman: Libra. Diplomatic and idealistic. The scales of justice, measuring each choice before making it. Symbol of Libra is an underlined omega.

XIV- Mortarion: Cetus. Cetus also represents the gates of the Underworld aswell as great sea beasts. A monster lying beneath the surface.

XV- Magnus the Red: Scorpio. Secretive, profound, powerful, brooding and potentially destructive. Likes mysteries and being acknowledged.

XVI- Horus: Sagittarius. The dreadful Saggitary. The perfect unity of man and war machine.

XVII- Lorgar: Aries. Enthusiastic, opinionated and forceful. Sometimes thought to be associated with the legendary Golden Fleece. Lorgar was golden skinned.

XVIII- Vulkan: Capricorn. Methodical, disciplined, traditional and hard-working. Some astrologers believe Capricorns to have dark hair, steady eyes, a dark complexion and capable hands.

XIX- Corax: Corvus. Corvus Corax: The Common Raven

XX- Alpharius: Gemini.

The twin primarchs of Alpharius and Omegon.

 

 

Any thoughts? I think some of these fit quite well though alot of them don't have any mythology associated with them like Scutum (Dorn), Crater (Sang) and Ophicucus (Manus) so I've had to improvise a bit. However, I haven't made anything up. All the personality traits associated with the primarch and their star sign are genuine traits associated with that sign of the zodiac. (I personally don't believe any of it but I find it quite interesting).

[Lord_Caerolion]

Actually, the original topic was "what emotions did they embody", so even the Zodiac stuff is technically off-topic.

[Contaminus]

Something thats been bugging me these last few days:

 

In Horus Rising, It is stated that the Emperor told Horus that his 20 sons all embodied one of the 20 Zodiac signs. When looking at this more closely, i came across an obvious flaw: there are only 12 Zodiac signs; Aquarius, Pisces, Aries, Taurus, Gemini, Cancer, Leo, Virgo, Libra, Scorpio, Sagittarius, and Capricorn.

 

Admittedly, this was the 31st millenium, and so it is entirely probable that humanity had found a few more signs in the sky. The question i pose is: What emotions do our 12 signs embody? Which of the Primarchs is best fitted to which sign? and what of the 'missing' 8? Are there even 20 human emotions? more? less?

 

Thoughts?

[Warrior Of Ultramar]

Well, when i said 'what emotions did they embody', i was kinda just wondering people's thoughts on the primarchs matches to the zodiac, so this is actually exactly what i was looking for! Well done Contaminus, kudos to you!

 

Although i would say that some of the links are quite weak, for instance Sanguinius. Matched to the cup, because it is symbol used by the blood angels chapter. But not the legion, because at this point there was no grail full of sang's blood for the other angels to drink. (or is that horribly wrong?) And the fact it matched up no personality traits. But the rest seem to fit very well.

 

I like this list ^^

[Contaminus]

Although i would say that some of the links are quite weak, for instance Sanguinius. Matched to the cup, because it is symbol used by the blood angels chapter. But not the legion, because at this point there was no grail full of sang's blood for the other angels to drink. (or is that horribly wrong?) And the fact it matched up no personality traits. But the rest seem to fit very well.

 

I totally agree with you but I couldn't think of any other Primarch that would have any relationship with a cup. Anyway, in order to attempt to solidify Sanguinius' relationship with Crater, I've done a little bit more digging.

 

The cup- or chalice- is symbolic in Wiccan rituals of feminism, intuition, gestation, psychic ability, and the subconscious. It is sometimes interchangable with the cauldron, which is often used for scrying (seeing into the future) which is a gift Sanguinius possessed. Crater as a constellation is mythologically associated with the Greek god, Apollo: god of light and the sun; truth and prophecy; archery; medicine and healing; music, poetry, and the arts. A more obvious and well-known story associated with the chalice is that of the Holy Grail; the dish, plate, or cup used by Jesus at the Last Supper and by Joseph to catch Christ's blood while interring him. It could also therefore be seen as a symbol of martyrdom, something which both Jesus and Sanguinius have in common since they both walked knowingly to their deaths.

 

How's that? :D

[Leonaides]

But again, that would be post-heresy. He cant have a symbol relating to his martyrdom till after his martyrdom. The Apollo link is better though.

[Contaminus]

But again, that would be post-heresy. He cant have a symbol relating to his martyrdom till after his martyrdom. The Apollo link is better though.

 

Ah, but perhaps he was destined from the start to die for a greater cause. How could Horus have the Sagittarius symbol before he became Warmaster or Ferrus Manus have the symbol of the Serpent Bearer before he killed Asirnoth? Maybe the star signs are a reflection of their fate as well as their personality.

[TWL]

i say fulgrim should be the devil with all the temptation things and all that...

[Lord_Caerolion]

As I keep saying, you need to remember the relations between the Tarot cards. Each Primarch can match several cards, if you look only at the traits of each card. The 'true' card they represent is revealed when you look at the ways in which the cards interact with each other. Plus, from what that guy has on the site, the Empress, his card for Fulgrim, is symbolised by materialism, vanity, etc, an even more fitting match for Fulgrim than mere temptation, which all the chaos Primarchs were affected by.

[TheNightHawk]

The cup may well have been part of the Legion prior to his death, especially as he knew exactly how and when he was going to die for quite some time before it happened. And still went into the fight against Horus.

[Lord_Caerolion]

Firstly, what are you talking about? Secondly, you just necro'd a 4 year old thread.

[Jareddm]

While necro'ing a 4 year old thread is a major faux pas, it might be interesting to see how the Primarch-Tarot connection, a list I have championed on several occasions, has held up in the last four years.

 

Off the top of my head there was a line in TFH where Magnus mentions how close Lorgar was to one of the missing primarchs and how Lorgar was hurt most by his removal. I can only associate this with High Priestess, who more than simply getting along or appreciating each other, is described as an extremely valuable relationship for both parties.