When the traitors hand strikes, how does it strike?

[Tfcdogbert]

I was sitting back in my seat earlier thinking of cinematic scenes for something i was writing when something popped into my head, when chaos strikes, what does it strike most with? Chaos marines? i wouldnt have thought there were enough even from the original 9 legions that gives just under a million, there are easily that many loyalist marines to fight them back, and they dont have much of a way to replenish casualties, so i was thinking, in the fluff, do they provide the weight? or is it a lot more like the Lost and the Damned which provide the weight to the strike? Or Daemonic shock troops that even the odds?

 

What is it that drives the engines of war from the Eye? Marines, Men or the Warp?

[Ju'kosian]

All off it. Marines and Daemons..

Cultists and traitor IG and the likes of that will be the first.. when the more elite warriors like the chaos marines strike.

 

It's true that there are a lot of loyalist marines, but I think we are on the somewhat same level in numbers, given the fact that we also recrute new members, create new marines, and there's always some of the servants of the corpse-god that see the right way and turn to the dark gods..

 

There's also the fact that Chaos can strike easier at one spot (Cadia) while the loyalist forces are stretched out across the imperium.

[sonsoftaurus]

As far as battlefield operations? Smaller scale raids and such very suited for CSM. Large scale operations would have the mass provided by LatD type forces.

 

But as for how Chaos really strikes? In the hearts and minds of the citizens. Fostering doubt and apathy among the population. A plant manager that cuts costs to line his own pockets while shipping out sub-standard gear/ammo to the IG. A rating on a starship that triggers an accident that leaves the ship out of action before a critical engagement. A sympathizer that cleans the floors in the PDF command bunker who can pass information on. IMO it's the vastly superior humint/mutint network that Chaos has that helps them make the most of their more limited forces. Very hard for the Imperials to get reliable spies into Chaos ranks, while Chaos subversion is so pervasive massive organizations (Inquisition, SOB) are dedicated to rooting it out. Imperials have to rely much more on the intel gained from counter-intel efforts, battlefield and signals information, and would normally be in a reactive mode several steps behind.

[DARKTROOPER]

Additionally Chaos Space Marines are superior in most aspects to normal Marines. If I remember/nderstand/might've made up the original legionaries are actually superior in all aspects to current marines.

[Tfcdogbert]

Well not all aspects, they have experience on their side and mutations, but however the loyalists have better equipment, mark 8 armour, improved bolter patterns and speeders and wider use of plasma etc.

 

But yes taurus, especially the alpha legion and word bearers in that respect.

 

So the accepted opinion is that they do operate a little like the loyalist chapters, they are surgical raid forces while their LATD friends take the flak in the front lines, using them as shock troops.

[DuskRaider]

While a legion or warband may strike with perhaps 1,000 Chaos Space Marines, the armies are mainly made up of Renegade Militia and such. So... figure 1,000 CSMs, perhaps 10,000 RM, probably more.

[Roultox]

Depends on the number available to them at the time. A full scale Crusade under abbadon, you could expect 50k+ marines easily under his command. Including a limitless number of daemons lessening as they get further from the warp. New cultists, lurking cultists cells that awaken prior to invasions and many planets get virus bombed/nurgle bombed with occasional chaos disputes being carried out on their own terms.

 

A regular legion assault, (not warband) expect nearly a grand company varying from 800 to 1500 marines or so. Sent in detachments of 200 or more per strikeforce.

 

Warbands could act more dilligantly depending on their roots, if from the alpha legion they would strike after a series of suicide bombers, saboteur insurgents infiltrate the lines, while a berzerker warband will go headlong into battle by landing in dense terrain to unload their maniacs safely.

 

Depends on the commander and the resources entirely what can be sent into battle.

 

 

By the way, just because chaos doesnt have much of their recruitment stated among the masses, doesnt mean that they are limping along. They have no 1k limit with chapter rules, and they dont have to be so stingy on recruitment, they could pump half a million candidates to have another 100 marines by the end of the year for the final implants, ejecting the useless failures into other dark projects for further "experiments". They are not bound by morals that would make a loyalist marine put a bolter round in the failed genetic soldier. By all means, chaos can recruit endlessly, on top of having clone technology available through Fabius Bile, rubric marines being 'possessed' into a captured marine's body, and all the new recruits one way path staining their vows to the emperor by following chaos.

 

True that chaos fights eachother, but not on the scale the imperium does with their holy wars, purges and not to mention not as many forces invade the eye of terror like the imperium gets assaulted every second.

 

Chaos is that lingering unstable power not to be under estimated. A commander could always claim to own a million warriors and five thousand marines on a daemon world containing half a billion daemons ready for his beckoning.

[Narthecium]

I would say Chaos strikes first and most often with the corruption of everyday citizens and regular humans.

 

Chaos Marine attacks would be far more rare than cultist attacks or simply corrupt individuals in leadership positions.

 

The average everyday cultist attack on other citizens for sacrificial / whatever purposes would probably be the most abundant way Chaos comes after others physically. Keep in mind how many people of the Imperium don't even BELIEVE in daemons and Chaos, or have no idea it exists.

[blamb]

it also depends on who strikes. World Eaters (and maybe other devout Khorne worshippers) are known to strike randomly, sometimes with only a few fighters sometimes full company sized armies.

 

Well not all aspects, they have experience on their side and mutations, but however the loyalists have better equipment, mark 8 armour, improved bolter patterns and speeders and wider use of plasma etc.

we wouldn't be that far behind, we do have the dark mechanicus and traitor forge worlds updating our stuff and giving us better stuff like the dreadclaws

[Rain]

If you follow established fluff and not our recent codex, Chaos is too heterogeneous of an entity to define with such a broad brush approach. Legions like the Iron Warriors, Word Bearers and Black Legion seem to have remained semi-cohesive and have furthermore continued recruiting long after the heresy, so they would probably strike as a massive overwhelming tide that could obliterate anything from a Space Marine chapter to an Imperial Guard regiment with large numbers of fanatical and battle hardened super soldiers. The World Eaters and Emperor's Children on the other hand are fragmented, and would probably strike as a single small warband, quickly pillaging and collecting skulls/slaves before disappearing back into the Eye of Terror. The other legions more or less fall somewhere in between, and all of course maintain their own idiosyncrasies.

[Jiri the Corrupted]

It depends on the target, goal and scale I guess.

 

Full scale black crusades (remember that it's not just Abaddon, may the Gods bless him for all eternity, that launches these crusades) or similar attacks would see thousands of marines, tens of thousands of daemonic troops, brigades of daemon engines and other mechanical war constructs (perhaps even a traitor titan legion?) and uncounted millions of human/mutant troops. But wars on this scale would be rather rare.

 

More common would be the chaos marine attacks on a single planet. Perhaps Lord A wants to conquer planet B and goes into planetairy assault mode. Then he uses his army of marines, probably several hundred marines but no less than one hundred or more than one thousand, and several thousand human/mutant troops to conquer said planet B and fends off any reinforcements until his evil plan X is accomplished.

 

Then there's the Chaos marine Raid. The basic scenario is like this: Chaos lord A wants B. Thing B (could be an artifact, hidden knowledge or just plain slaughter) is on planet C on location D. Thus Lord A attacks location D in order to get thing B. Forces on planet C respond and battle ensues.

 

But I'd say the most common Chaos attack on an Imperial planet is the 'Uprising'. Local Chaos cult X is on planet Y. After building sufficient strenght they attempt to overthrow government Z. They either succeed or fail, but warfare ensues anyway. If succesfull the rebels may consolidate their hold on planet Y and try to hold off the inevitable Imperial counter attack or they attempt to invade some other planet. Which ever choice they or their leader makes, they will eventually get crushed by an Imperial offensive. Most of the times the rebels will not succeed in taking over planet Y and get horribly crushed.

This matters not, the damage has been done already. The population will now have knowledge about the True Powers and will have to be purged by the Inquisition. The taint will remain however and you can be sure that the cult will survive in one form or another.

It is vital to note here that Uprisings with Chaos Marine support are fairly rare. I'd say that most cults receive only the most basic of support from Chaos marines. The WB and AL support cults on many Imperial worlds and some cults will succeed in getting support from them, but not all. Some might receive aid from other Legions or groups (remember the Cityfight codex with the NL? they were supporting a cultist uprising) but this is a rare scenario. Most attacks will happen with little to no material support from any Marine source.

Also, in the battle for planet Y, people will die. The cultist rebels will take casualties and will no doubt sacrifice countless victims to the Chaos Gods. This pleases the Gods greatly, as they welcome every soul they can get.

Imperial troops are either the PDF, Guardsmen or Marines but they too will sustain losses. This is a good thing. Whatever your place in the armies of Chaos, Daemon Prince to lowly mutant, your goal in life is to slay Imperials, the more the better. So any Chaos attack that succeeds in doing so is automatically succesfull!

 

There are ofcourse many other forms of Chaos attacks. Things like piracy and terror attacks spring to mind. A cult might not want to gain planetairy power and remain in the shadows for ever, or at least untill they are destroyed. Chaos fleets might not even invade a planet but merely bomb it from orbit. Large scale attacks would include all the elements that make up the forces of the Warp, but smaller scale conflicts could include just parts. Combinations of Marine & War Engine, Marine & Daemon, War Engine & Traitor Human and of course Cultist & Daemon are the most obvious.

 

But whatever the scale, participants or goals of the attack is; "when the traitors' hand strikes, it strikes to spread death and despair amongst the Corpse Emperors lapdogs"!

[DuskRaider]

we wouldn't be that far behind, we do have the dark mechanicus and traitor forge worlds updating our stuff and giving us better stuff like the dreadclaws

 

Dreadclaws are Pre-Heresy predecessors the the Drop Pod, used by all Legions. The Traitor Legions obviously took theirs when they rebelled, and the others actually jettisoned theirs into the Immaterium due to their Machine Spirits becoming corrupted over time.