What would it take to make X unit viable?

[DeathsHead]

Flipping through our codex, I find myself realizing over and over how so many units are just not effective, either as a result of their high cost in points, or their totally mediocre/unreliable rules.

 

I'm curious to see what sort of basic, low level adjustments folks would make to make some of our units more viable. Try to keep it as simple as possible - take your favorite (but not so useful) units and either subtract/add points to their cost (remember, no posting of actual points values) or suggest a way to adjust the units basic rules, stats, etc. Remember, we're not trying to turn them into super-units or no brainers; just adjusting them to be more of a viable gaming choice, and hopefully somewhat more representative of their role within the fluff.

 

Right off the top of my head, I think the Dreadnought (favorite unit in the whole game) needs to go back to last editions "crazed" rules - which were both entertaining and potentially effective. As it stands now, the "craziness" of the Dreadnought is almost completely negative. Also, I would increase their armor rating by one on both their frontal armor and their rear armor. The Dreadnought is supposed to be a walking death-machine, but it functions much more like suicide unit right now. It seems to me that a Dreadnought shouldn't be threatened so terribly by something like an autocannon, but that this weapon should still have a chance of slowing it down or causing low-level damage on sustained fire. Note that I also think it makes sense to make the same armor adjustments to the normal SM version. I would keep the points level as they are.

 

Spawn - great models (I've been having a blast with the box set I just picked up and a chunk of green stuff). In terms of rules, though, this unit is not very effective - not that a mewling sack of distorted flesh, tentacles and claws should be the most deadly unit in the game. These units should function like mid-level close combat threats and harassment units, which is something that they're basically capable of on the table-top at present. The main problem, however, is their points cost. Way too high to be seriously considered, especially when all of our other units are so brutally expensive. I think that either a five point reduction in their cost, along with the addition of a 6+ invulnerable save (representing the homogenous, distorted nature of the things body) would be appropriate. That, or simply reducing the points cost by 10 would be enough to start putting these models back on the table.

 

Chaos Lord - we are in serious need of an economical HQ unit. Especially for those of us who aren't into the dual Daemon Prince thing, our HQs leave much to be desired. Both the Lord and the Sorcerer are way too vulnerable to instant death weapons for their points cost. I'd like to see the option to either have a cheaper, but more vulnernable Chaos Lieutenant/Sorcerer, or an expensive but potent Lord/Sorcerer which has something equivelent to Adamantium Mantle or Daemonic Rune. I don't really have enough gaming experience to suggest a price tag for either of these units, but I'm sure someone else could come up with one.

 

Bikers - definately just a points reduction for these guys. Ten points might be a bit much.... seven or eight sounds just about right.

[Brother Asmodius]

I agree with you on going back to the old "Crazed" rules though i dont think it mitigates the use of the unit. it just makes you think about its placement a bit more. However that is a different argument. Personally i think that solves the dreads problems right there.

 

Im not sure id use spawn period no matter what small rule changes and point reductions were made. they are just too random for my liking and theres too much chance involved in getting them to work.

 

For bikes, reducing them by 5 or even just 3 points but giving us back our extra attack for having spiky bikes would make me field them again. (Although the 2+ inv. save tzeentch bikes with meltas have been tempting me)

 

Bring back chaos lieutenants!!!!!!

[Lady_Canoness]

I agree with putting the old 'crazy' rule back on the dread - they were soooooooo badass under the old 'dex, while they are now more likely to kill you than kill your enemy in most games (cc dread gunning down Terminators for two turns in a row when all he is using is rapid-firing combi-bolters?? F***ING ridiculous!)

 

I disagree about the Lords and Sorcerers, however, as though they aren't as cool as they use to be, they are still pretty killy... and a lot cheaper than the ones I used to field... Besides, they're Chaos Lords; they aren't meant to be econo! It's just stupid when your Daemon Prince is cheaper than the Lord

[Rain]

Just give us back our bloody armory and demonic gifts. Honestly, expensive units were how we balanced out the incredibly powerful characters that the units contained, and now we still have the expensive units, but not the lethal psychopath characters that those units protected. And it's not as if this wasn't fluffy or anything, Chaos epitomizes individual power, and nothing says individual power like demonic strength and spiky bits with a power weapon on each Aspiring Champ. Now what do we get? Dual Slaanesh princes, because 2 DPs sharing a relatively small 1.5-2k point warband makes sense, riiiiiight. Spawn were never all that useful as far as I remember, and bikers got hit by the negative externality of demon bomb getting nerfed, which used to be their primary purpose.

[darth_giles]

Dreads- Go Furioso (AKA, dual DCCWs). Model it up really scary so it draws a LOT of fire. And if it decides to vape, its only going to get twin bolter shots. More than half of a chaos dread's value is what happens when it actually does make it into combat and gets 9 DCCW attacks. Which is extremely rare, but your opponent doesn't know that.

 

Edit: They don't double their attacks if they blood rage into something? LAME!

 

Chaos Lords- I tend to go for cheap HQ. That way when they drop I'm not out quite as many victory points. And if they drop too much... well, time for a new dreadnought. At least the armor's recyclable. Plasma pistol, wings, power weapon (force weapon if its a sorcerer lord).... that's about it.

 

Spawns- Fleshy Curse aka Gift of Chaos. Its the diamond in the rough. Under the old codex it wasn't too bad, except for the fact that the new spawn formed a unit with the sorcerer. It did, however, make certain decisions very difficult under the old melee targeting rules. Under the new rules, we just gotta be a little more choosy about which one to transform, and stick for either figures that are worth more than the spawn's VP cost, or units where the spawn is likely to do a lot of damage.

 

Spawns as a unit or wargear? Gimmie a break. I'd only take them if I needed meatshields for footsloggers.

 

Bikers..... have always been difficult. I've always seen them best played for picking off stragglers or silencing heavy weapon squads. This is probably why they can boost now. As for daemonbombing- daemons these days seem to be more... iunno, bait for artillery? Not being able to assault makes them almost totally useless unless there's some rule I've missed.

[Tokunator]

You do realize that bikes still have the same amount of attacks, because they can now use their Bolt Pistols and CCWs in hand-to-hand? And they are still reasonably cheap melta-delivery systems. I think that they were intended to attack as outriders and tank-hunters anyway, not hand-to-hand units.

 

 

I think that ICs should have some kind of protection against hidden fists, but this is a general problem, not a Chaos specific one. I think that an IC should be allowed to pick the first victim or be able to target individual models in hand-to-hand.

 

And for the record, Daemons can't move the turn they arrive, but they can charge that turn.

[badguyshaveallthefun]

I have no problem with bikes the way they are (attacks wise), although I agree that they should cost a little less. Or maybe allow one or two more members to carry special weapons?

 

I like Chaos Lords the way they are, WS6 I feel accurately represents their close combat prowess and their centuries of combat. As far as needing a daemonic rune/adamantine mantle, I feel that it's more about picking your fights than making sure he can survive all those buried fists.

 

Spawn? Never use them. The only thing that I feel spawn are good for is with Gift of Chaos. They're too slow and random to consider fielding normally. I might try the apocalypse data sheet TIDE OF SPAWN sometime to see how it fares though.

 

I do feel strongly that they should bring back the old dreadnought fire frenzy rules. darth_giles did have some good advice about kitting out a dread with only two cc weapons to minimize it's effect, but what if I want my dread to have a plasma cannon? (they're my favorite dread weapons) I don't like being force into taking a particular weapons load simply because of the nature of the dreadnought. At the very least if the dreadnought fire frenzies let us roll to see who controls the dreadnought. Maybe with modifiers depending on the proximity of enemy troops or something.

[Corrupted]

I was just about to make a post on a possessed house rule my gaming group refined when I saw this thread, seems perfect for my intent. Lets go down the line as listed though.

 

Dread- Either make it so the damn thing at least tries to shoot at an enemy and only resorts to you if none are in LOS. Give the dread a possessed option that removes the craze table entirely.

 

Spawn- I'd be happy if I simply had control over them in the movement phase, five points cheaper wouldn't hurt either.

 

Lord- Jack there point cost by about 25 and make them immune to insta-death so they can charge a tac squad and last more then one round.

 

Bikes- Bikes have always been over priced for there survivability, they need a drop in point cost, chaos and loyalist. Also I think that chaos bikes should have the option for CC upgrade, two could have a melta, plasma, flamer, fist, or PW.

 

Now for my possessed house rule, because I also think these guys really aren't worth it in there current form, and thats a shame because there awesome, flavor and fluff wise. No more random ability table, instead they work like Daemon Weapons do. IoCG=Fleet, IoK=FC, IoN=FNP, IoS=Rending, IoT=PW. Point cost for icons then need to be adjusted as some combinations are more powerful then others, or if your not looking to be too fluffy make IoK=Rending and IoS=FC, that evens things out a bit.

[davidren2401]

Combining Icon of Slaneesh with furious charge!? So initiative 6 on the charge!? I think that's a bit excessive but I did like the way they were the first way around.

[Maladon]

Okay I don't understand the difference in the dreanought rules from the previous dex and now? explain, to me it looks the same!

 

I don't use bikers anyway, model wise its too expensive money wise to invest in.

 

Spawn can be effective, if used right.... distractions!

[Sception]

Dread on frenzy will now shoot your own troops if they're closest, even if there are enemy models in range. Also it doesn't get double melee attacks if it berzerks into something. Also several upgrades are no longer available to it (including mutated hull and daemonic possession, both of which were fairly popular for it in 3.5). Altogether, these are the changes that have people unhappy with it. It's still fieldable, but that doesn't stop it from being noticeably worse for the points then the efficient units.

 

Changes? Use old frenzy rules alone would make people pretty happy with it.

 

 

Possessed suffer horribly from their unreliability. As an expensive, elite, shock melee unit they need to A: be able to get to the enemy and B: be able to reliably defeat reasonably tough melee targets (troop level melee specialists, elite level versatile units) and have a decent chance against most other elite melee specialists. You can buy them a transport to get them to combat, that's good enough, but once in combat their lack of any reliable way to bypass troop armor means they suffer against most other melee specialists out there, and only go so so against generic melee units. Couple this with their unnecessarily high points cost, and things just aren't pretty.

 

Suggested Changes? Give the champ the option to buy a power weapon or fist and drop the points for the unit by one to two apiece, or replace the random roll with just rending.

 

 

Bikes play alright, they're just too expensive.

 

Suggested Changes? Drop points by three to five apiece.

 

 

Spawn aren't generally that fast, don't hit too hard, and can't take a punch, yet they cost more then twice the points of a marine. It's not hard to see why nobody fields them.

 

Suggested Changes - drop 10 to 15 points AND add either a 4+ armor save or a 5+ ward save (but not both).

 

 

The Land Raider is a schizophrenic beast that doesn't know what it wants to do, but, imo, costs too much to do just one thing at a time.

 

My Changes: either drop the points to 200 base, or push them back up to 250 and give it a 'stable platform' rule that lets it shoot as though it were a fast vehicle (ie, all its weapons up to 6", one weapon up to 12").

 

 

Lesser daemons aren't as bad as some say, but they're still a little lackluster compared to generic marines.

 

My Changes: drop points cost by one or two apiece

 

 

Daemon Weapons have a bit too much drawback. I'd make it either a wound or lost attacks on a 1, not both, possibly dependant on what weapon it is (ie, khorne hurts yourself, slaanesh gets lazy, etc)

 

 

Then there are the units that are ok, but feel bland because of insufficient options.

 

The daemon prince is powerful, but boring. I'd reccomend giving it a list of appropriately priced upgrades, but make sure those upgrades are easily distinguished for WYSIWYG purposes (ie- daemonic tail, not daemonic mutation).

 

The lord, likewise, could use a bit more. I'd let him take cult gear if he has a mark, in addition to the daemon weapon changes above

[Dammeron]

Daemons. There needs to eb an option allowing Chaos Space Marine players to take Greater Daemons as compulsory HQ choices, and Summoned Lesser Daemons as compulsory Troops choices, as well as the ability to customise both via the application of Marks of Chaos and a limited number of Daemonic Rewards.

[Spacefrisian]

Daemons. There needs to eb an option allowing Chaos Space Marine players to take Greater Daemons as compulsory HQ choices, and Summoned Lesser Daemons as compulsory Troops choices, as well as the ability to customise both via the application of Marks of Chaos and a limited number of Daemonic Rewards.

 

I guess thats why they came up with codex deamons.

 

BTW: is it just me or are the Raptors not what they used to be. Same statts now but it feels like they miss their things.

[davidren2401]

@ Malisteen: You're totally right about the Landraider, we had Infernal Device and the regular SM's still have Power of the Machine spirit both of which served the same purpose (To allow the raider to fire it's second lascannon on the move) This rule should have been left alone or replaced with something that served the same purpose because the Raider is simpley no good without it.

[Smurfalypse]

Now for my possessed house rule, because I also think these guys really aren't worth it in there current form, and thats a shame because there awesome, flavor and fluff wise. No more random ability table, instead they work like Daemon Weapons do. IoCG=Fleet, IoK=FC, IoN=FNP, IoS=Rending, IoT=PW. Point cost for icons then need to be adjusted as some combinations are more powerful then others, or if your not looking to be too fluffy make IoK=Rending and IoS=FC, that evens things out a bit.

 

 

Possessed are fine. I run 10 in my 1500 pt list and ive literally gone 35-1, the only time they arnt what they need to be is when you roll a 1 and get scout move. Even with scout sometimes the extra 6 inches of move is very helpfull.

 

Spawn just need a minor tweeking, leave them as is, same pts, and just give them feel no pain. This is both fluffy and efficient.

 

Chaos lord needs something. Im not sure how to approach this, but they are a very dull HQ choice. Maybe more options and upgrades, i would have liked to see things like Daemonic Strength and the like in their options for upgrades. A list like the daemon dex would have been nifty. Daemon weapons are nice, but who would ever use a weapon that likely will get you killed in close combat eventually. Chaos = evil, not random.

 

Dreadnaught...This was an atrocious turn of events for the dreads. We get massive downsides and no real upside compared to the marine version. We arnt really cheaper so i dunno what the Dev's were thinking when they wrote this up. I would'nt mind this rule if they dropped the pts by 20 or so.

[Maladon]

I'm guessing possessed may see so more field time in 5th edition. I don't use mine, but then again I only have 5 possessed. tzeentchian possessed may seen more action if more that others.

 

Spawn however I do use, and they've proven to be valid distractions for me.

[Black and White]

Maybe stick the dreadie in a pod when the planetfall book comes out?

[Night Stalker]

Chaos Lord - 5/10 pts reduction. or give him prefered enemy and keep price:>

 

Chaos Dread - +1 front armour. and that's it

 

Chaos Spawn - hey, it doesn't feel the pain - why dont give him this rule?

 

Chaos Bikers - 5 points reduction ?

 

Entire Chaos - give them better transport options - like mini-tunderhawk [maybe 10 or even 20 models would be allowed to ride it ?] or/and pods

 

Chaos Possessed - 2 points reduction [i like their abilities but they are bit overcosted]

[Dammeron]

Daemons. There needs to eb an option allowing Chaos Space Marine players to take Greater Daemons as compulsory HQ choices, and Summoned Lesser Daemons as compulsory Troops choices, as well as the ability to customise both via the application of Marks of Chaos and a limited number of Daemonic Rewards.

 

I guess thats why they came up with codex deamons.

 

BTW: is it just me or are the Raptors not what they used to be. Same statts now but it feels like they miss their things.

 

 

Except...you can't use the daemons in codex daemons in chaos space amrine armies, and this was a thread about how units in the current CHAOS SPACE MARINE ARMY LIST could be improved.

[Roultox]

Dreadnought+Land Raider, walk it up with the raider 6" a turn and fire both vehicles. If dread vomits at the raider, as long as it isnt a MM or TLLC, its fine.

 

Using 1 spawn is fine for just in case purposes.

 

Using bikes for bombing daemons/termies/troop hunting is fine.

 

All daemon weapons have subtle situational uses that make them overpowered. Dont be tricked by force weapon/warptime comparisons.

 

Lesser daemon still rock, and fill a gap in our troops with cheap invulnerable save melee troops that any other marine army would fall dead to get.

(Monstrous critters, Characters with P-weps, Banshee's, Incubi, rending and all the other nasties out there)

 

Its not overall effectiveness of the unit that is what the unit is worth to the field of battle. Its how they're used. The space marine player's mentality is that the unit must be effective for every situation, because thats what marines stats are built for, most situations. Tough, armored, strong, forgiving stats all around in comparison to other units of equal value and lesser stats.

 

I hate to say dont complain since everyone is entitled to their opinion, why dont you try making the situation with proxies for the models your unsatisfied for and figure out their strengths for yourself before you think they need to be changed.

 

~~GW playtesters playtest a unit hundreds of times making small changes, doing the complicated math every time they make a change and build from there, not just going from averages but going off what the top and low capabilities average, to make a full situational condition viable to make for table use. Doing so constantly for every unit, factoring in: Unit size, Opponents(over 50 units tested against, multiple tests against a certain unit, going off intuition to base what the unit should do for the army), what the unit in question could be supported with to see if any unit combinations are over powered for all situations, how fast the unit can bring its points back. I'm afraid I'm only scratching the surface here. Ask GW for their unit testing programs and run a few hundred tests yourself on a terminator.

[Cadian16th]

Spawns are, as stated already, way too random. Rolling for Slow&purposeful + fleet + attacks? Apart from the fact that fleet and S&P seem contradictory, that's too much randomness for 1 unit to be effectively used as anything other than a meat shield, and even then, it could be a very, very slow meat shield. I think take away S&P and it would solve several problems and allow them to be used in games effectively (or at all for that matter).

[retlaw83]

What pisses me off is the points cost for thousand sons. Not that it shouldn't be high, but that it's the only thing in the codex that isn't priced as a multiple of 5. So your options to get multiples of 5, if you're taking a single unit of them, is to take 5 boys and the sorceror or take 10 boys and the sorcerer and then not being able to use a rhino.

 

This problem could even be solved by making the sorcerer 63 points, but I'm just sick of staring at a 1847 for my army list with no options to plug the last three points.

[Sception]

GW playtesters playtest a unit hundreds of times making small changes, doing the complicated math every time they make a change and build from there

 

I'm sorry, but my understanding is that this simply isn't the case. When questioned about the balance issues of multiple falcons and transported harlequins, the lead Eldar developer reportedly gave answers including "we didn't think people would take multiple falcons" and "we didn't think people would put harlequins in falcons".

 

GW playtesting is reputed to be rather minimal and lax, with a handful of playtesters (not many, since GW doesn't like their codeces being leaked months in advance, as w/ the 3.0 Nid dex), who generally don't try to 'push the envelope'. Easy catches like Lash, Spawn, Falcons, Pegasus Knights, Steam Tanks, and many more cast no small degree of doubt on any claims of exhaustive playtesting.

 

In general, 'it's balanced because GW says it's balanced' isn't a very strong position.

 

 

Other then that, all of these units are playable - in that fielding them doesn't automatically lose you the game. I like to use Possessed every now and again for the awesome models, and sometimes they do fine. Doesn't change the fact that a less expensive CSM squad would be as good or better half the time, but whatever. There's a wide gap between "the rules for this unit are lackluster and subpar" and "this unit is unplayable trash". That doesn't excuse subpar design, though.

[Roultox]

Wasnt there some shift in balance between new staff/core staff leaving GW around the time the Eldar codex was in its playtesting stages? I forget.

 

I stand true to the side that units are playtested hundreds of times. Im not saying there are hundreds of games being played, but hundreds of times a unit is layed out in various conditions, terrain etc taken into account of how effective it can be. Some may argue that a terminator is too powerful in a narrow pathway where one on one units battle it out, while in an open field two units costing as much as the terminators would whup them in a ranged fight.

 

Core plasma guns are raising in cost, anti tank is going up in price and rarity, transports are being made cheaper and things are on the up and up. Player feedback is 50% of the flux, but the other 50% is all rules development by the GW employees.

 

3 Falcons push the pressure of 3 land raiders plopping 15 terminators on the enemy roughly the same effect as a two turn assault from a tripple falcon 18 harlequin rush. Second turn assault as usual, and the raiders have much better firepower than the falcons IMO, with line of sight blockage.

[DeathsHead]

Roultox, while I think it's safe to say that all of the units in any codex "work" (insofar as you CAN put them on the table, you CAN use them, you CAN sometimes pull off a victory with them), some units are distinctly underpowered - both in game terms and in terms of representing (even in a basic way) their fluff. Suggesting small alterations doesn't seem to be that absurd of a concept, and it is something GW does itself every once in a while, in recognition of the fact that sometimes they don't get it 110% right.

 

For instance, clearly a dreadnought shouldn't be able to "do everything", but I don't think it's ridiculous or game-breaking to give it a slight increase in armor or to adjust it's fire-frenzy rules. Similarly, Spawn in their present incarnation seem to be either slightly more expensive than they should be, or slightly less powerful than they should be.