What would it take to make X unit viable?

[Roultox]

So your saying 15 spawns in a dawn assault against tau wont make a mark or two?

 

I've played with 20 spawns before, and it reminded me of the nostalgic days of zerkers random flauntings. I have half a mind to give those spawns some chainaxes and chain sickle skull flail tenticles.

 

One spawn is 2 zerkers worth in cost roughly. Does not die to one krak or lascannon shot and their equivilants. They can move an average of about 8" a turn, I think I saw the math somewhere that backs that up.. (On this site, sadly I cant find it again)

 

It takes:

9 bolter shots to kill a single spawn // 9 shots, 6 hits, 2 wounds = dead

9 to kill a normal marine // 9 shots, 6 hits, 3 wounds = 1 failed save

 

The odds of a normal marine assaulting up to 24" = 0%

The odds of a spawn assaulting beyond 12" = about, 32% IIRC (Someone made a chart, yet again its the one I fail to find)

 

The main strength is all the 120 point units of spawns you can field in an unlimited way that dont care if melee attacks ignore armor saves. Just be sure to beat down the vehicles in their path so they dont get stuck with a dreadnought. They arent the power armored warriors Marine players are used to, but they sure fit in with a bike/raptor army flawlessly along with summoned daemons, deep striking terminators and fast HQ.

[darth_giles]

Bikes play alright, they're just too expensive.

 

Suggested Changes? Drop points by three to five apiece.

Iunno. Bikes are fine the way they are. They just take a lot of skill (more than I have, admittedly) to play right. I've seen it done.

The Land Raider is a schizophrenic beast that doesn't know what it wants to do, but, imo, costs too much to do just one thing at a time.

 

My Changes: either drop the points to 200 base, or push them back up to 250 and give it a 'stable platform' rule that lets it shoot as though it were a fast vehicle (ie, all its weapons up to 6", one weapon up to 12").

Again, I think having cheaper land raiders isn't that bad of a thing even without the Infernal Device. Which reminds me, I think the Chaoswing (daemons in compulsory troops slots, termies, dreads, and land raiders) might be why lesser daemons don't fill troops slots anymore. But then again, anybody cheesy enough to field a Chaoswing is definitely going to lose points for theme if they don't have a real good background.

 

Spawn just need a minor tweeking, leave them as is, same pts, and just give them feel no pain. This is both fluffy and efficient.

I could see giving them FnP. Again, though, I don't see them being used under the current rules except with the Fleshy Curse.

 

Chaos lord needs something. Im not sure how to approach this, but they are a very dull HQ choice. Maybe more options and upgrades, i would have liked to see things like Daemonic Strength and the like in their options for upgrades. A list like the daemon dex would have been nifty. Daemon weapons are nice, but who would ever use a weapon that likely will get you killed in close combat eventually. Chaos = evil, not random.

Eh... I suppose if you mean like the WFB list where the chaos lord drinks from the Dark Chalice (or whatever its called) and counts as a Daemon Prince for org chart filling (AKA, daemons as core and mortals/beasts as special). That would be flavorful.

 

The problem with giving too many options to the lord is the "Ernst Hemmingway- C'tan Killer" biker lord of Nurgle armed with a Kai Gun, Power Fist, +1 Wound, Immunity to Insta-death, and stinky enough cheese to gag a skaven.

 

Dreadnaught...This was an atrocious turn of events for the dreads. We get massive downsides and no real upside compared to the marine version. We arnt really cheaper so i dunno what the Dev's were thinking when they wrote this up. I would'nt mind this rule if they dropped the pts by 20 or so.

Or would you rather have the early 3rd Edition dreads where you *had* to give it a heavy weapon instead of being able to make it a Furioso? I refer you waaaaaay back to that codex which shows a "typical" Chaos deployment. The Dread is off by itself at the far edge of the table, out of range of everything expensive. Since everybody seems to be going back to army builds from that era, why not leave the Dreads off by themselves at one end of the board or pushed way out in front of everything else? That was the other place for them- not only fluff-wise (as soon as its unchained the dread goes tearing off after anything it can kill in the direction it was last facing), but also tactically because unless you or your opponent got pushed back too far, one or two good moves and the dread is going to be closer to them than to you. Especially if you go around the side and let the dread kick in the front door.

[DeathsHead]

Dreadnaught...This was an atrocious turn of events for the dreads. We get massive downsides and no real upside compared to the marine version. We arnt really cheaper so i dunno what the Dev's were thinking when they wrote this up. I would'nt mind this rule if they dropped the pts by 20 or so.

Or would you rather have the early 3rd Edition dreads where you *had* to give it a heavy weapon instead of being able to make it a Furioso? I refer you waaaaaay back to that codex which shows a "typical" Chaos deployment. The Dread is off by itself at the far edge of the table, out of range of everything expensive. Since everybody seems to be going back to army builds from that era, why not leave the Dreads off by themselves at one end of the board or pushed way out in front of everything else? That was the other place for them- not only fluff-wise (as soon as its unchained the dread goes tearing off after anything it can kill in the direction it was last facing), but also tactically because unless you or your opponent got pushed back too far, one or two good moves and the dread is going to be closer to them than to you. Especially if you go around the side and let the dread kick in the front door.

 

The dreadnought just isn't durable enough to hang out in the open in front of everything or along a flank by itself. It gets popped like a... soft squishy thing. The whole "batsh*t crazy" dreadnought idea is sort of entertaining, but it's unfortunate that we're forced to field them that way, all of the time. It takes the dreadnought out of its most useful role: infantry support. As it stands, however, it's a suicide/distraction unit. Not cool!