Corrupted Posted April 15, 2008 Share Posted April 15, 2008 Most of the lists I make are purely for fun, most of the units I take are because I think there cool. Unless I actively don't like my opponent, I honestly like to see a draw. But insta-death from the marine power fists in every damn squad is starting to bug me, and yes this is just a little rant. I'm really hating that my HtH oriented HQ can not charge the average troop choice of 30% of the armies out there with out dieing in the first round of combat. I also dislike the power fist nerf proposed for 5th edition. Just for my own sense of sanity I wanted to ask how other players felt about the following idea; Keep the extra attack from power fists in 5th, we honestly need if we want a chance in hell against wraith lords or big bugs. Make insta-death a shooting phase only occurrence, unless a CCW has a special rule, like a force weapon or the blissgiver. If your lord is hanging with out any of his buddies, probably because they were all shot to death, and a shell lands on his head he would still be removed from the board. Now however, that tac squad actually has to make him fail his 5+ invulnerable save three times instead of just once, giving the ancient HtH monster your fielding a fighting chance to smite his foes. I may just be crazy, but I'm wondering if anyone else likes the idea. On a trailing note immune to insta-death special rules on characters would still be useful for stopping vindy shells and lascannons. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/134253-my-poor-chaos-lord/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
the jeske Posted April 15, 2008 Share Posted April 15, 2008 1) learn to clear killzones 2)snipe powerfist guys with oblits 3) use DPx 4) if you use a lord dont expect him to be a hero just a cheap counter unit with jumppack that always dies Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/134253-my-poor-chaos-lord/#findComment-1545319 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Senseilord Ashahara Posted April 15, 2008 Share Posted April 15, 2008 terminator armour? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/134253-my-poor-chaos-lord/#findComment-1545322 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corrupted Posted April 15, 2008 Author Share Posted April 15, 2008 Well number one is just a bit patronizing, thank you very much... Number two I will never rhino snipe in a friendly game, and the first part of the post was to make it known that is was not a tournament situation. Number three kinda backs up my point as I always do use DPx as its the only reasonable choice no matter how friendly you want to be. Number four is exactly my point, and its the always dies part that kinda gets to me. Terminator armor doesn't actually help the situation at all if you think about it, its still a 5+ save or your dead. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/134253-my-poor-chaos-lord/#findComment-1545326 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tfcdogbert Posted April 15, 2008 Share Posted April 15, 2008 A mark of Tzeench? a 4+ invulnerable gives you pretty good odds, and a bloodfeeder, wipe out the entire unit or get killed :D Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/134253-my-poor-chaos-lord/#findComment-1545336 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corrupted Posted April 15, 2008 Author Share Posted April 15, 2008 Your right the MoT does help, and the bloodfeeder just scared the crap out of me and I will never use one. Its like a 12" dangerous terrain test with a tank, some thing I have NEVER passed. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/134253-my-poor-chaos-lord/#findComment-1545339 Share on other sites More sharing options...
badguyshaveallthefun Posted April 15, 2008 Share Posted April 15, 2008 With powerfists cropping up everywhere, you really have to learn to pick your fights. Now, I'm not saying don't charge units that have a powerfist, but be smart about it. Don't just charge your character into a squad hoping that he'll come out on top (because most of the time, he won't). Whittle down their numbers so the Lord can kill the rest. Charge into the opposite side of the squad where the powerfist is so it can't strike you. Use a bodyguard. As Jeske said clear your killzone; charge somewhere in the squad where you can only kill about three marines (average kill rate on the charge for me) Just make sure he has backup, otherwise he might get smacked during the next round of combat after your opponent has consolidated into you. There are lots of ways to keep your Lord from dying to fists, it's just a matter of playing smart. :D Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/134253-my-poor-chaos-lord/#findComment-1545369 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady_Canoness Posted April 15, 2008 Share Posted April 15, 2008 If you want your lord to survive more (and frankly who doesn't?) just stick him with guys who are scarier than he is. Khorne Berzerkers or Possessed if he is in Power Armour, or Terminators. Also, if you get another model in close combat with the powerfist and the powerfist is not in base to base with the Lord, I think that the PF has to hit the squad rather than mister Big-Bad. With my Lords (I usually field a lord and a Sorcerer [the presence of a Daemon Prince isn't always justified IMO]) I always have them part of a squad unless they are mounted, and if that is the case, then just pick and choose your battles. Your Lord should only be supporting the unit that he is in, not the other way around. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/134253-my-poor-chaos-lord/#findComment-1545387 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corrupted Posted April 15, 2008 Author Share Posted April 15, 2008 Well I guess its just me then, I'll personally stick to the Daemon Princes. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/134253-my-poor-chaos-lord/#findComment-1545392 Share on other sites More sharing options...
the jeske Posted April 15, 2008 Share Posted April 15, 2008 With my Lords (I usually field a lord and a Sorcerer [the presence of a Daemon Prince isn't always justified IMO]) I always have them part of a squad unless they are mounted, and if that is the case, then just pick and choose your battles. Your Lord should only be supporting the unit that he is in, not the other way around. But doesnt that kind of a defeat the objective of him being a counter unit . I mean for him to be safe , you would need to place him in the middle of a squad [and that would have to be fast moving and at least 6/8 man strong] to avoid him being sniped , but then he would probably cost more then most units he would counter and on top of that in most normal point games [1.85k] you need 2 of such units to counter any calidus/eldrad or plain bad luck . But then again I dont like lords the pts they cost and the support units tehy need to work cost so much that even MoT DP are cheaper. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/134253-my-poor-chaos-lord/#findComment-1545430 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maladon Posted April 15, 2008 Share Posted April 15, 2008 A Tzeentchian lord with deathscreamer supported by a Tzeetchian dp will always work well... and these days people like to stick powerfists in the smallest squad possible. just use deathscreamer and destroy the squad... simple? and the finish them off with a assault.... just hope you don't roll back to back 1's! Bloodfeeder doesn't always work( I'll attest for that with last weekends tourney 1's at the wrong times).... it need the added juggernaut to make it way more effective, with the speed and the str and attack bonuses. But a lord of khorne did wipe out a harlequin squad with no problems... last weekend. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/134253-my-poor-chaos-lord/#findComment-1545445 Share on other sites More sharing options...
the jeske Posted April 15, 2008 Share Posted April 15, 2008 , with the speed and the str and attack bonuses. sorry to burst your bubble , but the jugger lord [thanks to the DT] is just as fast as a footslogging lord . The DT forgot to add some important rules , but thats nothing new . ;) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/134253-my-poor-chaos-lord/#findComment-1545448 Share on other sites More sharing options...
chillin Posted April 15, 2008 Share Posted April 15, 2008 I don't think the problem is w/ PF, I think it's b/c we (chaos) no longer has proper retinues (why take the time to think about and play test a codex ?). But that being as it is, how was your lord equiped Corrupted ? I find that a undivided lord with D. weop. usually clears the kill zone with his 3 + D6 str 5 attacks. as others have said, if u get the charge in, try to place the lord where the PF isn't. If it's you getting charged or counter charged you don't get to controll that obviously. - I agree that nerffing PF is not the way to go b/c we have to fight hive tyrants, carni's, WL's and now armies of daemons. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/134253-my-poor-chaos-lord/#findComment-1545503 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady_Canoness Posted April 15, 2008 Share Posted April 15, 2008 But doesnt that kind of a defeat the objective of him being a counter unit . I mean for him to be safe , you would need to place him in the middle of a squad [and that would have to be fast moving and at least 6/8 man strong] to avoid him being sniped , but then he would probably cost more then most units he would counter and on top of that in most normal point games [1.85k] you need 2 of such units to counter any calidus/eldrad or plain bad luck . But then again I dont like lords the pts they cost and the support units tehy need to work cost so much that even MoT DP are cheaper. I don't think that CSMs need a Lord to counter anything in assault - the Lord just helps the boys work faster! I mount my footsloggers in a Rhino or Land Raider, and use cover carefully with jumpers, so sniping has never been an issue for me. To be honest, in most cases when a PF connects with the Lord's face I'm usually glad that they sunk 3 or 4 attacks into one model rather than wasting the guys he is with (4 Berzerkers tend to be more effective than a lord with 4 attacks at S4 with a power weapon) - this is especially true when it comes to Terminators - 1 lord dead, or 3 terminators biting the dust? I'll keep the Terminators thank you! Thanks to the removal of the Wargear and Goodies that Lords used to get, they don't contribute to the overall plan and they are not game winners, whereas a squad of Terminators or Berzerkers often can be. Just my thoughts there... ;) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/134253-my-poor-chaos-lord/#findComment-1545518 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maladon Posted April 15, 2008 Share Posted April 15, 2008 , with the speed and the str and attack bonuses. sorry to burst your bubble , but the jugger lord [thanks to the DT] is just as fast as a footslogging lord . The DT forgot to add some important rules , but thats nothing new . ;) Nothing in the codex states it moves like a normal footslogging lord.... it treat like calvary! So to me its calvary! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/134253-my-poor-chaos-lord/#findComment-1545537 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corrupted Posted April 16, 2008 Author Share Posted April 16, 2008 It actually says, "...exactly as if it was calvary." Which means its not, there just telling you why it can't be transported, not that that has anything to do with the topic at hand. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/134253-my-poor-chaos-lord/#findComment-1545740 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seahawk Posted April 16, 2008 Share Posted April 16, 2008 My chaos lord usually arrives at the head of his 10 terminator bodyguards. 10 terminators that, on the charge, produce 18-24 power weapon and 20 power fist attacks. Everything goes squish; he's frankly just there for cool's sake, and the lazy sucker usually arrives after the terminators have killed everything. In the next edition you'll be able to join characters to units in reserve and roll once for both. Thus why they got rid of retinues. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/134253-my-poor-chaos-lord/#findComment-1545760 Share on other sites More sharing options...
IhateSpaceMarines Posted April 16, 2008 Share Posted April 16, 2008 Best solution : Get 3 Havoc squads, all kitted out in missile launchers and watch your enemies army get beat. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/134253-my-poor-chaos-lord/#findComment-1545788 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady_Canoness Posted April 16, 2008 Share Posted April 16, 2008 Best solution : Get 3 Havoc squads, all kitted out in missile launchers and watch your enemies army get beat. What do havocs have to do with Chaos Lords? We are talking about Chaos Lords, not how to :cusspwn your opponent. :) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/134253-my-poor-chaos-lord/#findComment-1545793 Share on other sites More sharing options...
the jeske Posted April 16, 2008 Share Posted April 16, 2008 but zerkers or terminators are rather hard to use as hth units , they are damn slow considering what other hth units can do [zerkers to work need a second squad to act as "the anvil"]. Of course one could get a LR for them , but now we are looking at 600pts + in one unit [and this unit still needs support so in no way does it and here] . any gunline /eldar/tau list would find unending joy in units like that . And there is also escalation , in 1/3 of the games the lord may end up wihout the terminators [not to mention the combinations of lord/zerkers/LR] and then what? fooslogg ? what about the support units , that suddenly find that there is no hammer , etc? I agree with you that when a lord and terminators get in to hth other units die[considering the number of power weapon attacks , I would really be amazed if they didnt wipe the unit] , the only huge problem is getting them in to hth . Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/134253-my-poor-chaos-lord/#findComment-1545874 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cale Posted April 16, 2008 Share Posted April 16, 2008 , with the speed and the str and attack bonuses. sorry to burst your bubble , but the jugger lord [thanks to the DT] is just as fast as a footslogging lord . The DT forgot to add some important rules , but thats nothing new . ;) Nothing in the codex states it moves like a normal footslogging lord.... it treat like calvary! So to me its calvary! Um, yeah. Except that it isn't. The Lord's unit type is Infantry--not Cavalry. He can't ride in a transport, but he is still Infantry for the purposes of moving himself around the board. That much is perfectly clear. A lot of units would be better if you were to blatantly cheat to make them better. =P Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/134253-my-poor-chaos-lord/#findComment-1545991 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maladon Posted April 16, 2008 Share Posted April 16, 2008 , with the speed and the str and attack bonuses. sorry to burst your bubble , but the jugger lord [thanks to the DT] is just as fast as a footslogging lord . The DT forgot to add some important rules , but thats nothing new . :wub: Nothing in the codex states it moves like a normal footslogging lord.... it treat like calvary! So to me its calvary! Um, yeah. Except that it isn't. The Lord's unit type is Infantry--not Cavalry. He can't ride in a transport, but he is still Infantry for the purposes of moving himself around the board. That much is perfectly clear. A lot of units would be better if you were to blatantly cheat to make them better. =P That and I was joking about doing that, I use a jump packed khorne lord most of the time anyway. BTW- in the tourney last weekend that same arguement about the Icon of tzeencth came up, the guy thought the same as you did, and the tourney judge put him in his place saying the squad had to have a inv save to begin with to get the +1 bonus to the inv save.... He also called GW on it. they said the same thing. In 5th edition is when I'll use a juggernauted lord and not until then! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/134253-my-poor-chaos-lord/#findComment-1546051 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Artangel Posted April 16, 2008 Share Posted April 16, 2008 1) learn to clear killzones2)snipe powerfist guys with oblits 3) use DPx 4) if you use a lord dont expect him to be a hero just a cheap counter unit with jumppack that always dies Sorry I must be stupid but how the hell do Oblits "snipe" powerfist guys from a unit. I was under the impression that you can only target a squad not a squad member?. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/134253-my-poor-chaos-lord/#findComment-1546221 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob the lurker Posted April 16, 2008 Share Posted April 16, 2008 Depending on how the opponent positions his troops, and you using rhinos as moving walls, you can often reduce the number of squad members your Oblits can draw LOS to. The opponent can only remove models you had LOS to, so if you do it well you can remove the PF guy [or Icon bearer, Exarch, etc] if he is the only one iun the way of the lascannon shot... With the rumoured changes in 5th meaning there is more chance the guy will die from shooting anyway, this is a good tactic to think about.... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/134253-my-poor-chaos-lord/#findComment-1546283 Share on other sites More sharing options...
sonsoftaurus Posted April 16, 2008 Share Posted April 16, 2008 Look at it some other ways. 1) The fact that the Chaos Lord can go through a squad of Marines that DOESN'T have a PF (or a group of most aspect warriors, fire warriors, acres of guardsmen, etc) is pretty impressive. 2) While a Chaos Lord can't chew through PF loyalist marine squads, it also means that the loyalist Commander/Chaplain etc. (without Ad. Mantle) is also unable to chew through PF CSM squads. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/134253-my-poor-chaos-lord/#findComment-1546320 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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