The "Flying Circus"

[Allerka]

As I stated in this thread, which was getting a bit side-tracked discussing the intricate details of the Eldar Flying Circus list, folks seemed to be getting a bit over-focused on it. Plus, no real discussion on how to beat it with SMs is really present here, so I thought I'd try and get one started.

 

So, we've got the "Flying Circus" list, with multiple twinked-out Falcons, each carrying a squad of Harlequins (and likely a Shadowseer to give them plasma grenades). Plus whatever other elements are typically found in this list. We've got the Emperor's finest, Space Marines. Obviously, this list is designed to be incredibly fast, and eat your army alive with the Harlequins and such. What do we do to counter this? (I've never faced this list, nor even seen it in person, so I really have no idea)

 

Basic ideas I'm just tossing out, I'm sure I'm off a bit here, but let's at least get the ball rolling. They're in transports, which gives them the majority of their speed. Obviously, one should try to disable or destroy the transports. This likely won't be easy, though. Unless you get first turn, the Falcons will be almost assuredly moving 12", giving them Skimmers Moving Fast, downgrading any hits you might make to glances. Even getting to go first turn might not work in your favor, as your opponent will likely hide them behind cover at the start. You might be able to move a tank or other long-range unit into position to get a shot or two off. Even when you get to fire at them, however, they will assuredly have Holo-fields, meaning you'll roll two dice for the damage result. This, of course, can turn what would have been a perfect six into a measly one, should your dice roll as such, and can make them extremely difficult to destroy, especially if you can only manage to get off one or two good shots at them.

 

Now then, for the Harlequins themselves. These little buggers can be pretty bad. We can assume they've been dropped off at 12" or less from your lines, likely on turn 2 or so. They can ignore difficult terrain, have a high I, lots of Rending attacks, have Furious Charge, and get to fight in I order even if you're in cover. The only drawbacks to them is they're only S3/T3, with 5+ Inv for a save. Of course, this doesn't mean much if they manage to go before your Marines and kill them all before they even get to do anything. And, that's just one squad. Your opponent will likely have three such units barreling towards you. What can we do? We most likely can't shoot them if they're not even deployed until they're within assault range (baring a Falcon being just outside 12" and them getting a bad Fleet roll leaving them exposed). Staying in cover doesn't do much for us. Having the trait Trust Your Battle-Brothers can help a little, as the Counter-Attack moves allows you to get the entire squad into BtB, and, even with Rending and FC, it seems unlikely they can take down an entire 8/10 man squad in one round, giving you the chance to make at least a few attacks back, and counter-charge with another unit (such as an Assault Squad that's waiting behind your front lines to do that exact thing).

 

The other downside to them is their small unit size. Six of them tops, if they're riding in a Falcon. As Marines, we'll hit them on 4+, and wound on 3+. This means, assuming we can survive the first round of combat with our squad that got charged, we can make attacks back, and, if we continue to hang on, once our turn comes around, we can commit another squad to back them up. Even with three Rending attacks a piece, I would imagine they'd be hard-pressed to put out enough attacks to severely hurt two full squads. Plus, if they lose even only one or two squad members, they lose a large chunk of their fighting ability (every casualty you make is three less attacks back at you).

 

Though, I just remembered, they do have Hit and Run. However, even if they manage to attack, kill everything in range, and disengage, it stands to reason they won't be able to withdraw to a completely safe location. Even if they get a full 18" away, unless that unit that got charged was isolated on a flank, you should have at least one other unit nearby that can put down some amount of fire. Or even that same squad, if they didn't break and run. If the Harlequins are too far away to advance and double-tap your bolters, then you can still get off the single-shots at 24". Just like horde armies against us, force them to make saves. Roll enough dice, and you'll fail your saves eventually. Especially if it's only 5+.

 

Alright, I think that's enough from me to get it started. Keep in mind, this all just theory on my part, as I have no actual experience fighting them. Anyone else with more experience is welcome to share their wisdom and insights. Hopefully we can come up with something that can at least give us a fighting chance against this list.

[Gentlemanloser]

So as not to derail the other thread, I'm responding to mannstein here. ;)

 

Tried creating killzones they can't escape from (don't even bother saying its impossible, if you can't do it, why are you not learning how?) and luring them in?

 

I'd forgot aobut FC... So it's S4 that first round. Just like the Marines. 25 Rending S4 attacks is enough to clear any kill zone *they* pick, becuse due to thier supierior mobility, they will pick where they hit you.

 

Unless they're gambling and trying to massacre a squad (maybe on under strength from things like Faclon/Reaper casualties...)

 

Tried taking the falcons down at the start of the game when they are stationary and don't get the bonuses for moving?

 

Already mentioned that....

 

Any Good Eldar player worth his salt, who loses first turn will either;

 

1: Hide the Flacons in/behind Area Terrain

2: Keep them in reserve and bring them on, so they always move

 

Tried to set your army up so that when he stops his falcon right in front of you you can rain heavy bolters onto its back armour?

 

By the time it's landed, it's too late. You can only glance, so no Penetrating hits to force the Harlies out and entangle them. Next turn, even if you *do* take the Falcon down, which is a hard enough task, not due to it's briliant amrour, but due to you rolling 2d6 (pick lowest) on the Glancing Table, the Harlies charge you.

 

Tried using the mobility the marines have, which exists even if the choices are "sub optimal"?.

 

Yes.

 

Tried using your own mindgames on the no doubt hypercompetitive powergamer facing off against you?

 

I'm no Derran Brown. Again, I hold no sway to faith nor mindgames in 40K.

 

I see the mobility as a crutch they must use, and their greatest weakness, and some appear to see it as their shield.

 

Please do explain.

 

Having the trait Trust Your Battle-Brothers can help a little, as the Counter-Attack moves allows you to get the entire squad into BtB

 

As far as I know, it only gives you a 3" move to get into B2B. So if you're over 3" away (and if you're within 2", you could have attacked anyway) CA doesn't help. :P

 

and, even with Rending and FC, it seems unlikely they can take down an entire 8/10 man squad in one round, giving you the chance to make at least a few attacks back, and counter-charge with another unit (such as an Assault Squad that's waiting behind your front lines to do that exact thing).

 

I've seen a 6 man squad get 9 rending attacks on the charge (not bad out of 25!). I've seen them get none, only do one standard wound and then lose most of thier squad in return. Mostly, they just always clear the kill zone. As for counter charging, why didn't the harlies fly over your Tac squad and charge the Assault Marines? It's just far too easy for them (with super terrain evading skimmers) to pick exactly where they strike. You can't corrale them, due to the fact the Falcon is a skimmer. >_<

 

Even with three Rending attacks a piece

 

4 on the charge, 5 for the Troop Master.

 

Though, I just remembered, they do have Hit and Run. However, even if they manage to attack, kill everything in range, and disengage, it stands to reason they won't be able to withdraw to a completely safe location. Even if they get a full 18" away, unless that unit that got charged was isolated on a flank, you should have at least one other unit nearby that can put down some amount of fire. Or even that same squad, if they didn't break and run. If the Harlequins are too far away to advance and double-tap your bolters, then you can still get off the single-shots at 24".

 

You've actually hit the nail on the head.

 

If they hit a unit isolated on a flank, then the tactic of swampping them isn't available, and they stay in CC for as long as possible, clearing the kill zone until the squad is dead. If you have antother unit close by, they either disengage in your assault phase to move towards your new squad to shoot/fleet charge them next round, or use it to put terrain (hopefully Area to stop shooting) between them and you.

 

So you shoot them after the disengage? (which they won't really do in thier own turn anyway, unless swamped somehow) Give a conservative average of 10" H&R move. At best, you've got the remnants of the CC squad (who consolidated towards them) at 7" to beat VoT, at worst, your other units are over 10" away, and beating VoT becomes so much harder.

 

Harlies aren't immortal. It just takes so much luck to beat them (they roll bad for Randing attacks on the charge, you get good VoT/CC/two ultra lucky 6's versus the Falcons), and they are too hard to control or counter in any way.

 

You can't turtle them in cover. you can shoot them. you can't go before them in CC. you can't funnel them, or stop them hitting when and where *they* want.

 

You have to just react, and prey they get bad rolls.

 

Something I just don't find fun to pay against.

 

"I've got 4 normal and 6 Rending attacks. Well that's cleared the kill zone. I'll pile in. your turn...."

 

Edit: And mostly, which lists have full 10 man squads? 6-8 is common. 5 if you're Deathwing. And with combat suqads being touted as "the next best thing", Halries will eat 5 man squads in heartbeats.

 

I can see the BT slowing them down with 20+ man Crusader Squads. Which I suppose they'll just ignore until they whittle them down enough with Flacon/Reaper/Pathfinder fire, until they're soft enough to Assault.

 

And all this doesn't even touch the problems of keeping three units inside the Falcons until turn 6, where they Star Engine to an Objective and unload a scoring unit (which can then fleet into place if needed).

 

Edit2:

 

I'm looking forward to 5th Edition. If the rumours of being able to remove CC casualties from anywher ein the squad, Harlies are Dead. I'll smile for joy while ushering in my new Ork overlords. Harlies charge a 30 man Ork squad, rend/kill 10 or more. you take them form the back of your 30 man Ork squad and them procced to power claw the harlies to death, as they can now no longer *ever* rely on clearing kill zones

[Guardian of the Rage]

I have only seen these in action once, Harlies i mean. When considering their transportation in falcons, one thing remains obvious to me. The vehicles will have both spirit stones and holofields meaning that all you will be able to reliably do is stop them shooting, movement will still be allowed by the spirit stones. As this means they will always be able to drop their cargo, we must then consider that it is NOT open topped and therefore they must disembark for a turn before the inevitable move-fleet-charge. This disembarkation is the key if feel.

 

I consider that we must endevour to control what can be charged, and where the falcons can safely drop their Harlies to get this charge. I feel that consideration of these factors will give us the advantage. The falcon is not a big vehicle, but neither is it small thus the terrain big enough for it and the cargo to hide behind will be minimal. In addition, the 'door' is on the rear of the vehicle, thus the harlies must disembark from there. What i'm getting at here is that you will get one turn to shoot at them out of the transport in theorey. Our strategy should be based around making this happen and maximisiing the efficiency of the shots when it does.

 

What i am suggesting is that we 'second-guess' or better still provide only a few places where they can reasonably disembark. This will allow us to react accordingly with mobile elements. How exactly you would do this depends entirely on the terrain of the board on which you play, and the manner of the eldar deployment, even on the disposition of your own unit selections. But in essence, as the falcon is resricted to a 12 inch move and the Harlies disembark 2 inches, meaning that when you survey the battlefield, the areas available for this attack should be obvious.

 

Your reaction to this movement should be very simple: it will be one of 2 alternatives. Either you move and engage, or you move to retreat and force them to either risk moving in the 'open' for another turn. Both of these require your list to have manouveurability as a focus of your unit selections, as the Harlies can fleet, simple 6 inches of movement might not be enough, particularly as they ignore cover.

 

The units in our list should be based around the ability to move 12 inches and still fire wherever possible (some argue that this should be the base of your list regardless of your opponent, but thats a separate issue). In addition the T3 and 5+ inv save mean that the weapons should be concentration of high fire rate and medium strength, Ie multiple shots weapons with not higher than strength six, and there is no point in AP as they get their save regardless of course. Enter the heavy bolter as the weapon of choice for me. Its availability combined with low cost and 3 S5 (wound on 2+ against T3) means that the math-hammer says that one HB shooting at a unit of Harlies (and can see them ofcourse, i'll talk about this later) = Shots 3, hits 2, wounds 1.666, failed saves 1.111. So one attack bike will kill slightly more than one on average, then add the twin linked bolter 1 shots, hits 0.8888, wounds 0.59, failed saves 0.39. Thats 1 and a bit kills if 3 attack bikes fire. If the squadron of three fire thats (1.1111 x3) + (0.39 x3) = 4.5 kills on average in a round of shooting. I wont bore you with the calculations of the assault cannon, or squads of rapid fire bolters or flamers from bike squads and assault marines, but essentially, these types of weapons will cause serious issue to the Harlies.

 

In terms of the actual units to counter them with: assault marines (with flamers), Landspeeder tornados, Attack bikes and bike squadrons (flamers, leave the other stuff at home) are all golden for this role.

 

One last fact to consider is whether they have a shadowseer in the unit. If they do then you must use a form similar to nightfighting rules inorder to spot them (2d6 x2) with an average distance of only 14 inches, and a maximum of only 24 inches. What is crucial about this is that the average spotting distance puts you within the average move-fleet- charge range (15.5 inches), if you move to with in the average distance. This will mean that it is important to do some serious damage in the shooting phase before you get charged yourself. Luckily with the maximum unit size of 6 i(f they wish to take advantage of the falcon transport) this shouldn't pose too many serious problems on this score. obviously, if they don't have the shadowseer, this isn't an issue.

 

One last consideration is the falcon itself. there are numerous tactics for destroying these, all i'm saying is don't froget that its there. It would be terrible to wipe out all of the harlies, only have your heroic units destroyed by their transport! Tornados are good at damaging these due to high rate of fire, it should be stressed though that this unit could be seen and targeted by other units significantly further away.

 

I consider the best anti-Harlies/falcon unit loadout to be something along the lines of:

Attackbike squadron (3): Heavy bolters - 150 points

Assault squad (5): flamer, melta bombs - 126 points

Landspeeder tornado - 80 points

Total - 356 points

 

The 6 harlies with shadowseer and kisses costs 152 points, and the falcon with starcannon, holofields and spirit stones costs 185 points, totaling up at 337 points. Make of this what you will

 

In summary,

1) need to look carefully at the terrain spot the ares that could be used for these tactics and attempt to force your opponent into them

2) ensure presence of 'counter units' (move 12 and still fire)

3) maximise shooting phase

4) Don't forget about the falcon

 

I hope some of this helps

 

GotR

[Gentlemanloser]

What i'm getting at here is that you will get one turn to shoot at them out of the transport in theorey.

 

Have I miss understood the rules?

 

What I face are Falcons that move into position and stay there. Sure you get one turn to shoot the Falcon and/or move 6" away (if not in cover, and which the Eldar play *should have taken into consideration...). then on thier next turn, the Harlies disembark (2" from the door) so as to be able to move, fleet and charge.

 

And the Falcon flies off to continue to retain its SMF bonus.

 

Isn't that how it should work?

 

we must then consider that it is NOT open topped and therefore they must disembark for a turn before the inevitable move-fleet-charge. This disembarkation is the key if feel.

 

Just checked the BGB. If the Transport hasn't yet moved that turn, they can move shoot and assault a snormal. So you won't ever get this turn of disembarkment before they move fleet charge you.

 

Edit: You can't disembark if the Vehicle moves more than 12" anyway...

[Guardian of the Rage]

Indeed, you are correct. I've only seen this tactic once, and he disembarked first, then charged next turn. If you did stay inside the transport that would enable to 2 inches disembark, the 6 inch move, the d6 fleet and the 6 inch charge. That would depend on how likely the eldar player felt that the destruction of the transport was.

 

Obviously the if they inside the transport then they can do you described, then they are at a great advantage. I should have clarified that. The aim is to squeeze these 'locations' viable for this tactic, so that the eldar player is forced to either disembark for fear of the transport being destroyed. Or to force him to point the rear of the falcon away from you. As the only door is on the back, if he pivots, that counts as movement, thus when the harlies bail out they can't charge. The falcon is a long vehicle, though not too wide and this would force the harlies to make an extra 3 or 4 inches of movement, which could well be the difference between being left in the open and charging home. It's either this, or expose the rear armour for a turn. In this situation, particularly if the harlies have VoT from the seer, the most likely outcome is immediate disembarkation. I should point out that this isn't always possible, thats why this tactic 'flying circus' tactic is so feared.

 

If you allow the eldar player to what he (or she i suppose) wants then you will quickly find yourself at a disadvantage.

 

GotR

[Gentlemanloser]

That's the point though, isn't it.

 

As a skimmer it ignores Terrain. Moves what, in excess of 30" with Star Engines (don't own the Dex, so not to sure on the specifics). And is more durable than a LR.

 

I remember seeing that a single Lascannon shot has around a 4% chance of destoying a Falcon. I don't think many eldar players would think the destruction of thier Skimmers (Meltas etc are pointless, as you only glance anyway, Chain Fists need 6's to hit in CC, then can only glance anyway... /sigh) are likely.

 

If you could corral the Falcon, you could at least try to out manouver it. But as long as it doesn't stop on a mini, it goes anywhere.

 

I suppose you could ring your troops with vehicles, with 1" gaps so they could shoot out.

 

But that's when the super duper cheap Vibro Cannons of Vehicle Doom (or the Reapers) come into Play, and the Harlies are held inside the Falcons until there's room and space to assault, or it's turn 6 and they need to claim objectives (let alone the ability to withold VP from thier opponent...)

 

Or the Avatar. :(

[Master Jeridian]

I apologise but a lot of the people proclaiming we should just use 'positive mental attitude' to beat Flying Circus have very little experience against this foe, yet insist those that have experience are wrong.

 

I've faced Mech Eldar many times, my regular opponents once included 2 Eldar players- one won a UKGT Heat, and one came 3rd at the UKGT Final. At a UKGT Heat this year I faced 4 Eldar armies out of 6 games with my Marines- it wasn't pretty and it wasn't fun, and I'll likely not be going to the UKGT again.

 

So, what do I have to say on the matter?

 

- Stop assuming your Eldar opponent is a complete idiot- it doesn't help the argument. Any half-decent Eldar opponent is not going to move a Falcon so that it's rear armour can be hit by multiple heavy bolters or bolters. To even suggest this shows you've never played a decent Eldar player.

 

- On average you should not be able to destroy the Falcon transport. And definitely not before turn 3. Many have said "well, i destroyed a Falcon on turn 1", good for you, have a cookie- but on average this doesn't happen. A Holotank is the most resilient in the game and the most mobile- making the term 'Glass Hammer' used by Eldar players laughably rubbish. If your relying on 'getting lucky' with your Damage rolls...well, that's not a reliable tactic.

 

- You should never get to shoot the Harlies before they charge. As mentioned by others, the general tactic is to move the Falcon into a position so that it is around 15" away from the intended charge target. You can then shoot the Holotank- see point above.

They will then get out and charge.

 

- Refering to the above first point, the Eldar player is unlikely to not see those supporting units ready to counter-charge. The entire tabletop is visible to both opponents- unless he's an idiot he's not going to fall for obvious traps. Either he will chose a more isolated target or he will deal with the support units at the same time with shooting or other Harlies, etc.

Again, many people rely on their Eldar opponent being completely incompetent to stand a chance....not a reliable tactic.

 

- The Harlies will win the assault, they will always get the charge, will always go first and have around 24 Str 4 Rending attacks hitting on 3's. That's 4 Rends before the rest hit...

 

-A Falcon and Harlies do not operate in a vacuum. A lot of the counter-tactics involved your entire SM army trying to down or destroy them. What of the rest of the Eldar army?

Many victories are phyricc- you may eventually kill the Harlies, but they killed far more of you, hindered your army, influenced your entire game plan and...oh look, the rest of the Eldar army just claimed objectives, destroyed you and won the game.

 

-Tactics such as moving a Landspeeder to block the hatch to delay the Harlie charge prove the above perfectly. Your giving the Eldar player an 80pt bribe (as it will be destroyed) just to delay the Harlies charging for one turn. You gain no VP's for it, and the Harlies will just charge next turn. How many Speeders do you have just to delay an enemy unit?

And then the Eldar player grows a brain, and deploys a second Holotank or some Jetbikes behind the front Holotank- so you can't block the exit.

 

 

So please bear these in mind when insisting it's our 'negative mental attitude' that makes Mech Eldar unbeatable.

[Allerka]

Master Jeridian, no one said anything in this thread about mental attitude being the key to victory. That was the other thread. THIS thread is meant to do some brainstorming and see if there's SOMETHING we, as Marine players, can do to counter this list. I can tell you're a bit bitter about it, I'm much the same way about Tau. But I'd appreciate it if you kept your tone a little less aggressive and defensive. No one's making any accusations or insults here, this is pure tactics discussion. That said, thank you for your observations.

 

As far as I know, it only gives you a 3" move to get into B2B. So if you're over 3" away (and if you're within 2", you could have attacked anyway) CA doesn't help. sad.gif

Actually it is 6". More than enough room to get a full-size Tactical Squad into BtB.

[Gentlemanloser]

Makes the 5th Ed rumours more useful. ;)

 

So you can always pile in everyone in yoru squad 6" to all engage the Harlies, can take casualties from guys at the back that might not be engaged, and the Falcons take a hit in survivability and offensive Str. ;)

 

And Rending is toned down a little.

 

Makes a Squad of PAGK a littl ebetter than Marines facing Harlies, forcing the Harlies to roll 4+ to hit instead of the usual 3+. ;)

[bystrom]

2: Keep them in reserve and bring them on, so they always move

How do you keep them in reserve after you know if you get first or second turn? Do you mean that if you can't deploy them behind cover, you then keep them in reserve?

 

As far as I know, it only gives you a 3" move to get into B2B. So if you're over 3" away (and if you're within 2", you could have attacked anyway) CA doesn't help. :lol:

Actually it's 6", so it helps, but not much (and it requires you have CA, assuming not everyone plays with Trust Your Battle-Brothers).

 

 

-Tactics such as moving a Landspeeder to block the hatch to delay the Harlie charge prove the above perfectly. Your giving the Eldar player an 80pt bribe (as it will be destroyed) just to delay the Harlies charging for one turn. You gain no VP's for it, and the Harlies will just charge next turn. How many Speeders do you have just to delay an enemy unit?

And then the Eldar player grows a brain, and deploys a second Holotank or some Jetbikes behind the front Holotank- so you can't block the exit.

A tornado firing at the rear hatch would knock it down (immobilised or destroyed) every fifth time assuming my math's correct. Not too shabby, but still not extremely reliant.

 

@ Master Jeridian, before you commented on keeping your forces together (grouping each squad together to avoid your opponent isolating models when charging) as well as keeping 7"-12" to avoid massacre rolls, and you commented on fire prisms just loving shooting at all the grouped together marines. Assuming the eldar player doesn't have a fire prism (opting for more Harlies and Falcon), would keeping together while having a couple of squads in reserve (drop pods/termies) or quick units (bikes/land speeders) go hunting other units (which should be total points minus 900 pts worth of units) not result in a pyrrhic victory (assuming equal skills)? What I mean is if some units that can circumvent the falcons/harlies go hunting other eldar units, while the rest of the army stays a bit together, is a possible tactic?

[Gentlemanloser]

How do you keep them in reserve after you know if you get first or second turn? Do you mean that if you can't deploy them behind cover, you then keep them in reserve?

 

Yeah. You lose first turn and have to deploy. If you can't see a place to safely hide your Falcons (like some nice Area Terrain forest, or behind a building in your DZ) then (obviously as long as the mission allows) keep them in reserve.

 

Actually it's 6", so it helps, but not much (and it requires you have CA, assuming not everyone plays with Trust Your Battle-Brothers).

 

My bad on that. :lol: Covered above!:lol:

 

A tornado firing at the rear hatch would knock it down (immobilised or destroyed) every fifth time assuming my math's correct. Not too shabby, but still not extremely reliant.

 

That taking holofields into account?

[JamesI]

How do you keep them in reserve after you know if you get first or second turn? Do you mean that if you can't deploy them behind cover, you then keep them in reserve?

 

Yeah. You lose first turn and have to deploy. If you can't see a place to safely hide your Falcons (like some nice Area Terrain forest, or behind a building in your DZ) then (obviously as long as the mission allows) keep them in reserve.

Umm, illegal. Everything should either be in reserve or on the board when it comes time to roll for first turn.

 

And Falcons have no rule that lets them go into reserve, in escalation they have to. Other than that, on the board.

[Gentlemanloser]

Nuts lol! Seems like I've been playing too much Apoc recently. :lol:

 

^_^

 

Well boards with no cover and the Emperors Tarot seem to be the way to go when facing Falcons! ;)

 

Time to fight all my battles in deserts! ;)

[Allerka]

You deploy before you roll for first turn, so they can't go "Well, I'm going second, and I don't see any good hiding spots, so I guess I'll put these guys in reserve."

 

As for TYBB, no, not everyone uses it, so obviously not everyone's going to get to take advantage of the CA moves. While 5th edition will give this list a few much-needed whacks with the nerf bat, I think we should still attempt to come up with something to ensure we can grind this list into the ground, and save ourselves the trouble of ever seeing it again.

 

It seems to me, that keeping units certain distances apart from each other (7"-12", I think it was), allows them to cover each other in the event of a charge from the Harlies. While they can counter this with a Fire Prism, I find two things factoring against this. 1: That means one less Falcon carrying a squad of Harlies around, and 2: it doesn't strike me as being really all that nasty. The large blast still allows us to take armor saves, and the small blast would only get a few models, with cover saves still being allowed. Clustering units together doesn't seem like it'd be that dangerous because of them. Of course, I could be wrong about that.

 

In any event, say we have three squads (whether Tactical or Assault), all within 7"-12" of each other. If one gets charged, even if wiped out, the Harlies would be within firing range of the other two, and likely assault range as well. Or, if the squad holds on, and combat continues, the other two squads can pile in if needed and overwhelm the Harlies. Conversely, if they strike, kill everything in range, and then H&R back, say, 10"-14", obviously that would likely leave them out of counter-assault range. However, even if they get a maximum 18", they'd still be within firing range of at least one or two squads. Even if you can only get a few long-range shots off, we're hitting and wounding on 3+, and they're bound to fail at least one or two of those saves. They hit hard, but a few rounds of shooting like that can almost assuredly wear them down.

 

As for the rest of the army, deep-striking Tornadoes coming down behind a Falcon seems like a possible course of action, as well. It allows us to get some shots in where it'd be easiest to get at least one glance against them (remember, even a one on a glance means less firepower coming at you for the next turn). Plus, three squads of three speeders gives us a numbers advantage, and, while our speeders are pretty fragile, they can dance with the Falcons and hopefully keep them tied up pretty well.

 

Now then, this is all just what the player has for Elites and Heavy Support. What kind of Troops and HQ can we expect to find with an army like this?

[Gentlemanloser]

Avatar, Eldrad or Uriel for HQ.

 

Avatar is cheap, effective and nsty. Eldrad is the (current) only Psyker that can survive a Perial of the Warp Attack, but can be counter by a PH. Uriel for the Redeploy.

 

Or there's Pheonix Lords. I hate Fuegan. Eternal Warrior, hits like a MC, Fire Lance, Power Axe, 2+ Armour Save and FNP. Ugg.. Maugan-Ra is also a Marine Killer.

 

Troops. Pathfinders.

 

Infiltrate, scout move and super Sniper Rifles. I've lost countless Termies to them, and have twice had Dreadnoguhts destroued by a 5-6 to hit, two 6's for AP (which then penetrates...). Actually a shade more often than I've killed Falcons. ;) OH and I forgot the obgliatory 2+ Cover Save.. More durable than Terminators...

 

If they take guardians, the strt cannon can hurt plus a Warlock can ruin vehicles.

 

Wraithguard as Troops are expensive, but hell to dig of an objective.

 

For the life of me, I can't remember what the Elite slots are! lol! Reapers are heavy aren't they?

 

Firedragons are very effective in a Falcon if they don't field three Harlies. And Swooping Hawks will destroy LR with ease! Vibro Cannons are heavy as well? If not, Ugg... They'll keep your vehicles glanced all th time.

[Master Incarias]

Just a theory... Could a modified "Fish of Fury" work? I.e. deploy tightly, leaving no room behind you for the blighters to land, and keep a number of Land Speeders in cover but close. Once it's obvious where the Harlies will strike (as their transport needs to land a turn ahead), the Speeders are placed so that they block the Harlies from reaching your infantry. Sure, the Harlies might charge the Speeders, but the likelihood of them taking them down are fairly slim (6 to hit, 6 to cause any damage at all). The Marines hidden behind the Speeder Bump (sorry, I had to...) then get that precious turn of shooting.

 

This might be a flawed plan, but it's a try...

[Master Jeridian]

But I'd appreciate it if you kept your tone a little less aggressive and defensive.

 

My comments are aggressive and defensive- that's impressive.

 

A tornado firing at the rear hatch would knock it down (immobilised or destroyed) every fifth time assuming my math's correct. Not too shabby, but still not extremely reliant.

 

Erm, no. You will need to cause 9 Glancing Hits to destroy, 36 if it has Vectored Engines. You'll need to do this on turn 2, at the very latest turn 3.

 

You managed to hit all the buttons- the Eldar player is stupid enough to let an AV 10 Speeder move 12" and fire on it's rear hatch? Why?

 

@ Master Jeridian, before you commented on keeping your forces together (grouping each squad together to avoid your opponent isolating models when charging) as well as keeping 7"-12" to avoid massacre rolls, and you commented on fire prisms just loving shooting at all the grouped together marines. Assuming the eldar player doesn't have a fire prism (opting for more Harlies and Falcon), would keeping together while having a couple of squads in reserve (drop pods/termies) or quick units (bikes/land speeders) go hunting other units (which should be total points minus 900 pts worth of units) not result in a pyrrhic victory (assuming equal skills)? What I mean is if some units that can circumvent the falcons/harlies go hunting other eldar units, while the rest of the army stays a bit together, is a possible tactic?

 

This certainly has merit, but it's still not enough.

 

So you have your 'castle' of Tacticals close together, and you have your 'strike force' of Speeders/Attack Bikes/etc that is trying to engage the Holotank army.

What's stopping the Eldar player ignoring and hiding from the 'castle' and hunting down the fragile 'strike force'?

 

The Podding/Deep Striking is again powerful. But what's stopping the Eldar player hanging back, ignoring and hiding from the 'castle' waiting for these to land, then pouncing on them?

 

One thing I've learnt the hard way is that if you split your force, even just one unit in isolation- a good Eldar player will use his better mobility to really punish you for it.

But if you stick together, you can't cover much of the board, your at the mercy of the Eldar player- who will use cover and his better mobility to claim objectives, harass at distance and wait for you to leave units isolated.

 

Similarly, if your aiming to hunt everything other than the Holotanks, the Holotanks are faster than anything you have and more resilient- they bluntly cannot be ignored. Your on the right track though, in the case of Fire Prisms- shake them then move on, all you can hope for is to stop them shooting for a turn. In the case of the Falcon though, their shooting is irrelevant- they're a transport essentially- and you can't stop that short of destruction.

 

But even if you do manage to do some damage to the non-Holotanks- those Holotanks are holding 190 VP's each, and can claim an objective from 24" away turn 6- even Tank Shocking you off them.

 

It seems to me, that keeping units certain distances apart from each other (7"-12", I think it was), allows them to cover each other in the event of a charge from the Harlies. While they can counter this with a Fire Prism, I find two things factoring against this. 1: That means one less Falcon carrying a squad of Harlies around, and 2: it doesn't strike me as being really all that nasty. The large blast still allows us to take armor saves, and the small blast would only get a few models, with cover saves still being allowed. Clustering units together doesn't seem like it'd be that dangerous because of them. Of course, I could be wrong about that

 

The most effective Eldar lists I've faced only have 1 or at most 2 Falcon Taxi's with Clowns- because that's all they need to make a killer blow. This leaves their options open. Most take a Fire Prism or 2. It provides a threat of blasts (so forces the opponent to space out) and adds long-range anti-tank.

 

Ever see what 2 Fire Prisms combining fire can do...

 

In any event, say we have three squads (whether Tactical or Assault), all within 7"-12" of each other. If one gets charged, even if wiped out, the Harlies would be within firing range of the other two, and likely assault range as well. Or, if the squad holds on, and combat continues, the other two squads can pile in if needed and overwhelm the Harlies. Conversely, if they strike, kill everything in range, and then H&R back, say, 10"-14", obviously that would likely leave them out of counter-assault range. However, even if they get a maximum 18", they'd still be within firing range of at least one or two squads. Even if you can only get a few long-range shots off, we're hitting and wounding on 3+, and they're bound to fail at least one or two of those saves. They hit hard, but a few rounds of shooting like that can almost assuredly wear them down.

 

It's irrelevant- if the Harlies wipe out a Marine squad they've already paid for themselves, anything else- like the protracted campaign to wipe them out by you is a bonus to the Eldar player. Your expending 2-3 Tactical Squads, and whatever else shooting to eliminate 160-200pts of enemy? And even then, it's a close run thing whether you'll suceed or not.

Harlies aren't indestructable (that would be the Holotanks)- their strength is that they should always destroy more than their worth, and can cause the entire enemy plan to revolve around taking out this one unit.

 

Long-range shots? VoT on average 14" well within the Harlie charge range. Any further out and your risking a very high chance of not being able to shoot with the unit that's firing- wasting it's use that could have fired at something else.

 

As for the rest of the army, deep-striking Tornadoes coming down behind a Falcon seems like a possible course of action, as well. It allows us to get some shots in where it'd be easiest to get at least one glance against them (remember, even a one on a glance means less firepower coming at you for the next turn). Plus, three squads of three speeders gives us a numbers advantage, and, while our speeders are pretty fragile, they can dance with the Falcons and hopefully keep them tied up pretty well.

 

Hmm, forgotten the Speeder deep strike- over here various GT FAQ's and accepted wisdom have stated that Speeders falling from orbit have moved over 12", so cannot fire.

 

Your taking 9 Speeders? Seriously? 720pts on fragile skimmers? Also bear in mind they will get the nerf stick very soon- more expensive and you can only take 1 Tornado per FA slot. So trying to outbeard the beardy Eldar isn't going to work.

 

Even if you do do this, Eldar armies pack a lot of multiple shot Str 6 that eat Speeders for breakfast.

 

Now then, this is all just what the player has for Elites and Heavy Support. What kind of Troops and HQ can we expect to find with an army like this?

 

 

I'll give you a rough guide of the most effective Eldar build.

 

HQ

 

Autarch on Jetbike- the Fusion Pistol, plus power weapon on Jetbike. His Reserve rule is very powerful in Escalation, his melta weapon means he can pop tanks- but generally he's just there to be a cheap HQ because your forced to take one.

 

Alternatively, Farseer on Jetbike. More expensive but Runes of Warding is the bane of cheap tricks like Lash, Fear and Fury. His Spear means he can also hunt tanks.

 

 

Elites

 

Obligatory Harlies- 6x Rending. VoT. Etc.

 

Fire Dragons- 6-8xstrong in a Wave Serpent with Twin Shuriken Cannon and Shuriken Cannon. The Wave Serpent pumps out 6 Str 6 shots against Rhinos and those Speeders the Marine player spammed. The Fire Dragons take a ride towards Termies, or expensive Tanks. 6 Meltaguns means nothing survives when they hit.

More exotic is the Wraithguard- same purpose, just more expensive and more resilient.

 

Another Obligatory Harlie squad- but most of the time not, one unit is enough to screw the enemy plans over.

 

Troops

 

A favourite is 6 Jetbikes- in units of 3 with a 1 Shuriken Cannon in each. They have their uses, using multiple shot Str 6 to laugh at Speeders, etc. Using JSJ so that they're never shot at back. Sniping light tanks, etc. But just like the Autarch- they're primary role is to be as cheap as possible because you have to take min 2 troops.

 

The other firm favourite are 2 small units of Pathfinders- a lot more expensive but great to prevent enemy Infiltrators getting good positions, their bonus to Cover means normally 2+ Cover Save- so everything short of Flamer weapons requires far more firepower than is warranted for the Pathfinders worth or cost.

Their 'rending' Sniper Rifles can also be nasty to heavy infantry.

 

 

Fast Attack

 

Warp Spiders- 6-8 with Exarch of more shots. Excellent unit. Actually requires skill to use though. JSJ and use of cover to get them into a position to unleash 18 Str 6 shots- again to laugh at Speeders, to mince Rhino transports, to force a lot of saves on Marine units and to decimate units like Gaunts, Orks, etc.

 

Heavy Support

 

Obligatory Falcon- cheap as chip weapons- usually Shuriken Cannon. The Falcon isn't there to shoot, the Eldar player knows this and doesn't waste pts trying too. A lot of Marine players don't seem to get this, and think stopping a Falcon shooting is a worthwhile victory.

 

2 Fire Prisms- Great AT, discourages enemies grouping together. And with Holofields, should not die during a game so can contest obj from 24" away turn 6 and Tank Shock enemy off.

 

Alternative to the 2 Fire Prisms is a Fire Prism and a unit of Vibro Cannons. Who doesn't like to hide behind cover and hit every enemy unit along a 36" line, automatically Glancing vehicles regardless of Armour...

 

Final alternative to 2 Fire Prisms is a Fire Prism and another Obligatory Falcon (to go with the 2nd Harlie squad).

 

 

All of this adds up to create a very, very mobile army that packs a lot of Str 6+ long-range firepower that will also 'jump' back out of LOS before you can shoot back. So you can't stand back and win a gunline battle- you'll simply never get a shot off, and just be whittled down by JSJ and indirect fire.

 

If you try to get to grips with them, they are more mobile than you, and will quickly destroy your mobility first (taking out Rhino's, Speeders, etc) anyway. Finishing of with the coup de grace of a Harlie charge.

 

If you try to win on objectives and holding ground, they gun you down whilst hiding, destroy your mobility, finish you off with Harlie charges...and Tank Shock you off the objectives turn 6.

 

 

Trust me, it is not a fun game to play.

[Gentlemanloser]

Don't forget the Dark Reapers.

 

I'd take a unit of those over a Fire Prism any day. They are premier Marine Killers. It's sickening the amount of heavy AP3 shots they can put out. Plus the Exarch skills add insult to injury.

[Master Jeridian]

I've faced Dark Reapers once, very 3rd Edition.

 

Mech Eldar armies of tournament standard rely on very high mobility and the ability to JSJ or Indirect.

Dark Reapers on the other hand are very static and can't hide from return fire.

 

So if you took Dark Reapers as a 3rd Heavy Support in the above list- it would likely be the easiest and/or only target of choice for the enemy army, because everything else is more resilient (Holotanks) or has hidden (Jetbikes, Warp Spiders, Vibro Cannons).

 

Their anti-Marine firepower is sickening- but too easily counterable assuming terrain is 25%+. They suffer for the same reason the Marines suffer against Mech Eldar- they are too slow and unable to hide.

[Hellios]

I know this dosen't help alot but my shooty orks have done great against mech Eldar but that is pumping out 150 shots a turn that can at least glance the front armour of a Falcon which I realise marines can't do. Infact basically quantity of fire is what matters and in this respect Imperial Guard are better against mech eldar than marines and again chaos marines do slightly better than marines because I believe they can take autocannons however doing a list in this way would be affective against mech eldar to some extent but in a tourny would leave you weak to other armys (if your usig marines.) If you can get them out of a falcon before they are ready to charge (the biggest problem in many ways) a Vindicare assassin can be helpful if you shoot the shadow seer by getting up close however this is alot of points and very hit and miss even if you have got them out of the transport, if you do happen to pull it off then unload and watch them die.... still leaves you with an issue if they have two squads...

 

not much help but thats my 1p :'(

[Brother Vyze]

I am pretty sure Dark Reapers are Elite.

[Master Incarias]

Nope, Reapers are Heavy Support...

[Brother Vyze]

Ok sorry, but wont that cut at the number of Falcon's they can have?

[Master Jeridian]

Ok sorry, but wont that cut at the number of Falcon's they can have?

 

Yep, hence why I very rarely see them.

[Gentlemanloser]

If you can get them out of a falcon before they are ready to charge (the biggest problem in many ways) a Vindicare assassin can be helpful if you shoot the shadow seer

 

As you can't Pen hit the Falcon, the only way to get them out is to glance and roll those two 6's (or be lucky enough to at the least imobilise it far enough way from you they then need to foot slog..)

 

The Vindi still have to get past VoT to hit the SS. VoT isn't a targettign restriction, but a Psychic Power. :lol: