The "Flying Circus"

[Wildfire]

MJ is pretty much right on in how mech eldar work. Aside from a few minor points, he's obviously played vs. competent opponents with these types lists. I do think that after the arrival of 5th the eldar airforce will be as dead as the Nehru jacket, so ya'll don't have long to worry. If you're looking for some good advice right now, though, do some searches in the chapter forums. I know I saw this topic comming up in the UM and SW forums.

 

Some key points of an eldar airforce list:

All heavy slots will be filled with fast skimmers with holofields and stones

Troops will usually be a couple of their JSJ jetbikes

Elites will be harlies with possibly a firedragon squad.

HQ will usually be a jetbike autarch

 

So, what we have here is 3 fast skimmers that roll 2d6 and pick the lowest for damage. Each costs 170-230 points, and holds those points very well.

 

Troops and HQ can hide after shooting, holding their points as well.

 

Elites are both very efficient in point-cost-to-damage-output terms, and nearly invulnerable before getting into position to kill something.

 

 

The whole point of a list like this is to take a few units that kill more points than they give out, and then just play keep-away the rest of the game. Slow units such as Dark Reapers or Eldrad have no place in this army.

[Hellios]

If you can get them out of a falcon before they are ready to charge (the biggest problem in many ways) a Vindicare assassin can be helpful if you shoot the shadow seer

 

As you can't Pen hit the Falcon, the only way to get them out is to glance and roll those two 6's (or be lucky enough to at the least imobilise it far enough way from you they then need to foot slog..)

 

The Vindi still have to get past VoT to hit the SS. VoT isn't a targettign restriction, but a Psychic Power. :confused:

 

I wasn't advocating using his rifel I was advocating using his pistol at close range where he is more likely to pass VoT as I am aware he dosen't ignore it, however if he can see he still gets to shoot the shadowseer.

[Master Incarias]

I've been doing some thinking (you see, I have this thing that when no one answers me on these forums, instead of making the reasonable assumption that I've just been missed, I think I'm right... Megalomania is a pretty word...).

 

I believe that there is a solution (once again on a theoretical plane) to the Flying Circus. My solution is to build a fortress, complete with ramparts of some sort. The ramparts would be either the Speeder Bump I've already suggested, or something swift enough to manage to back away once the transports have landed, leaving the Harlies with nothing to charge. The point either way, is to place models tightly enough that there isn't room for a Skimmer to land*, and have the outer ring of models either difficult to kill (Speeders) or quick enough to get away (Bikes, Assault Marines). Once the Clown threat has been dealt with, these fast models can then go to claim/contest objectives.

 

*The one problem here if is he decides to Tank Shock, but this seems unlikely as you then both get to shoot at his rear armour, and block the exit...

 

I know it's probably not a perfect plan, but tell me where its problems lie, and I can try to make it evolve.

[iamnothere]

Newly dipping into this topic and having never played against eldar in over 5 years of 40K, has anyone tried assassins?

 

I think the Calidus MIGHT be able to waste a Harlie squad IF the timing was right. I know it doesn't help much against the Falcons but my options are limited to LasCannons in the GK list.

[Hellios]

Again this dosen't help but if they ever update the WH codex the Psyocculum shoud be able to ignore VoT then you could take a shooty Inquisitor and friends :S still dosen't help with falcon however TBH is this issue really worth worrying about as its going to be nowhere near as hard in 5th ed.

[Gentlemanloser]

I think the Calidus MIGHT be able to waste a Harlie squad IF the timing was right. I know it doesn't help much against the Falcons but my options are limited to LasCannons in the GK list.

 

Tried it.

 

While you might think the flamer is good, they are Ld 9 (IIRC) so you wound on a 5+. They save on a 5+.

 

Then the Harlies murder you in CC.

[Maeklos]

Well, since VoT is a psychic power, how about throwing in an Inquisitor with Null Rod and 3 HB servitors?

[Gentlemanloser]

As long as your Eldar opponent is happy that while VoT is cast on the Harlies, by making your roll to see them, it's still effecting you, an Inq with a NR is priceless.

 

Drop the HB servitors, give him his own Psycannon and attach him to a Psycanon using GK Squad. Invulnerable save eh? BOOM!!

 

Preferably a Purgation squad where the Justicar has been 'upgraded' out of Power Armour and given his own Psycannon. ;)

 

Next game, the Falcon will land next to you Inq and he will become IC CC target of the day. ;)

[Master Jeridian]

Ah, cracks knuckles, where to begin?

 

Wildfire- yep, we're definitely on the same page.

 

Gentlemanloser- yep, glad you caught that one. You can't Pen a Falcon, so you can't force a Disembark.

 

I wasn't advocating using his rifel I was advocating using his pistol at close range where he is more likely to pass VoT as I am aware he dosen't ignore it, however if he can see he still gets to shoot the shadowseer.

 

Come on guys, your making it too easy. So somehow you've managed to walk a Vindicare into pistol range of a Harlie squad in the hope of taking out the Shadowseer? The fact the Harlies can move faster, that they can move even faster in a Falcon or that they can charge from within a Falcon without ever being exposed to fire.

 

I believe that there is a solution (once again on a theoretical plane) to the Flying Circus. My solution is to build a fortress, complete with ramparts of some sort. The ramparts would be either the Speeder Bump I've already suggested, or something swift enough to manage to back away once the transports have landed, leaving the Harlies with nothing to charge. The point either way, is to place models tightly enough that there isn't room for a Skimmer to land*, and have the outer ring of models either difficult to kill (Speeders) or quick enough to get away (Bikes, Assault Marines). Once the Clown threat has been dealt with, these fast models can then go to claim/contest objectives.

 

I'm glad that your adapting and considering potential tactics (no sarcasm meant), but this won't work.

AV 10 Speeders aren't a 'tough speed bump'- they are easy meat for the multiple Str 6 shot weapons packed by an Eldar army. That your exposing them to enemy fire in front of your Marines makes them even easier to eliminate.

 

The alternative, the flee like a wounded Tau whenever Harlies are in threat range is reactive. Your entire army is influenced by where that Falcon moves too- your whole army must flee and scatter whenever it comes close.

And much like the 'block hatches' tactic- your making drastic measures just to delay the Harlies. Your gaining no permanent benefit- the Falcon will just move again, having forced your army to scatter- no biggy to them, they can wait all game and just claim objectives and hold VP's.

 

With a 24" transport move previous turn and a 14" charge potential- the Harlies can hit anyway 38" from the start line. There's only so much board you can try to hide and flee in- and the Eldar can do both of these things faster and better than you.

 

Don't get me wrong, I do this a lot- but it delays the Eldar, it doesn't win you games- it just turns Massacres into Major Defeats.

 

Nothings stopping the Falcon Tank Shocking your Speeder bump- there should be Warp Spiders, Jetbikes and a Wave Serpent just laughing with glee at getting LOS to the Speeder so it shouldn't be around for long.

But it doesn't need to- the sheer mobility of the Harlie-Falcon charge means you will literally need to ring your Marines completely- just one gap and they will have the mobility to use it.

So you have 9 Speeders in a ring that would probably only surround 20 Marines at best, if in base contact.

 

Take a step back- you've just deployed 20 Marines in base to base with 9 AV 10 Skimmers sat immobile around them- and this is going to beat Mech Eldar?

 

I know it's probably not a perfect plan, but tell me where its problems lie, and I can try to make it evolve.

 

I'll say again that it's great that your really thinking about the problem- but this line of thinking is inherently flawed. You may delay the Harlie charge but in doing so your entire army revolves around stopping the Harlie charge, you cannot move out for objectives, significantly cause damage to the rest of the Eldar army, or anything else.

If I was an Eldar player and someone did such a castle, and I never got the Harlies out- they would have still been worth far more than their pts because of the detrimental affect they had on your plans and army.

 

 

I think the Calidus MIGHT be able to waste a Harlie squad IF the timing was right. I know it doesn't help much against the Falcons but my options are limited to LasCannons in the GK list.

 

That's a lot of eggs in one basket. Somehow you need to get the Harlies out of the Falcon whilst not letting them charge and butcher there own pts worth...then roll good Reserves to bring on the Callidus, then only do mediocre against them anyway. Other's have explained their LD 9 and Invulnerable save against the Flamer, whilst they will go first in close combat.

 

 

These are all good suggestions, and it's good to see discussion on it- but these all require you to have exceptional luck or a very poor Eldar player, neither of which can be relied on.

 

As long as your Eldar opponent is happy that while VoT is cast on the Harlies, by making your roll to see them, it's still effecting you, an Inq with a NR is priceless.

 

It's a very murky area of the rules, to their credit my Eldar opponents have agreed to the Battle Sisters anti-psyker 5+ save to see them. That my Sisters have an effective range of 12"/flamer makes this less powerful.

In the rules it's a psychic power affected the Harlies, in the fluff description it's a psychic power affecting the minds of their enemies...

 

So the NR depends on your Eldar opponent gimping himself for you. Many will, because you should never see a Harlie squad before it has charged- it sits in a Falcon within 14".

 

If Harlies couldn't be transported then they'd be balanced- the insane number of special rules being countered by requiring a lot of skill and patience to get them into combat. It would also make Howling Banshess more than a poor man's Harlies again.

It's the Harlie and Falcon combo that's disgusting.

[Master Incarias]

Argh! I did indeed forget to factor in the rest of the Eldar army...

 

Improvise, adapt and overcome... Or, the second two at least.

 

This will be a bit rant-like.

 

I think (there's that word again) that we should consider the weaknesses of this build. There must be some. I have one. The Falcon. I hear a lot of "you're insane"s right now, but bear with me. The Falcon has a relatively large foot print, true? (If anyone's got an acutal measurement back-front, it might help...). It also has its exit in the rear. This means that the Harlies will have to disembark some ways away from you (a few inches, at least. Small consolation, but still) unless the Falcon feels like showing its rear to a lot of Bolters, which it won't. More importantly, it means that there is a limited amount of places on a normally terrained board where a Falcon can land. (I hope I'm getting this right, my knowledge of Skimmer Transports are a little rusty, I'm afraid). This, we might be able to use.

 

The Falcon also has a relatively low armour value. Although we cannot rely on Penetrating it, and our Glancing hits will have limited effect, throw enough mud at a wall, and some of it will stick. Even Immobilising a Falcon will earn a bit of Victory Points. And, if by some chance, we can destroy it, the fellows inside will feel it keenly. Assault Cannons, Heavy Bolter Devestator Squads with Tank Hunter, Plasma Guns, the important thing is to throw a lot of mud. A real lot of mud (probably too great a bucketful to be feasible, but hey, I'm brainstorming...)

 

Dreadnought are our friends. Venerable Dreadnoughts are real friendly. On the charge, one in ten ( a bit less, really, but who bothers) of the Harlies' attacks (with the Rending rule, the others are helpless) will Glance or Penetrate a Dreadnought. In subsequent rounds, it goes down to one in every thirteen and a half (which, incidentally is the number of attacks it takes to Penetrate it in the first round). A unit of Harlies, assuming full upgrades across the board (Kiss, Troupe Master) will throw out 25 attacks on the charge. In my experience (yes, I've fought Harlies) a Dread can hold out for a couple of turns at least. Which buys time to countercharge. True, they Might Hit and Run, but it's a start. Also, on a more fatalistic note, an Exploding Dreadnought can play merry hell with Harlies...

 

No matter how the Harlies are dealt with, however, this configuration does mean another weakness; numbers. Harlies are not inexpensive. The upgraded Falcon is very expensive (true, good for its points, but still). This leaves relatively few points for the rest of the army.

 

Which brings me back to the fortress. I've been considering my regular army. It fields some fifty models, twelve of which Infiltrate. It fields two Venerable Dreads, and a Vindicator. It is not specialised against our friend Monty. If I set this army up tightly, I can make sure that (barring extreme Charge Iffing) at least ten Space Marines from two different squads are contacted or Engaged by any charge. This fortress will also have my Dreads set up so that they are ready to react. The Vindicator will be a little of a Wildcard. Rather Importantly, though, if my opponent goes for the fortress, I have limited his possible landing sites. He can't get at my Command Squad or my Assault Squad for the simple reason that he can't land inside the ringwall. This leaves these squads to countercharge.

And, I've got a trump card. My infiltrating Veterans. They have a Melta gun (and if I feel like it, a Sergeant with a combi-melta), and will be able to set up after the Falcons. This squad is my one-trick pony (with more than one trick). With a little luck, and first turn, it can wreck one of the Falcons (or Immobilise it) before it gets to move. If not, it ges to act as a nuissance.

 

I know that I might be getting reactive, but against an army that can change its entire location quicker than a Neophyte can sneeze, I think there is very little chance of anything else. You can't outpace them (it's simply not possible) so the best bet might actually be to act a Dwarf and try to take it.

 

Back on track, though. Are there any weaknesses to this list? What are they? Can we use them? If not, can we run like scared children? Of course not! We're Astartes. We'll break it eventually. Or 5th edition will break it for us...

[Gentlemanloser]

It's a very murky area of the rules, to their credit my Eldar opponents have agreed to the Battle Sisters anti-psyker 5+ save to see them. That my Sisters have an effective range of 12"/flamer makes this less powerful.

 

Ah, now this is where we disagree. :P We don't let, Unguents of Warding, old Collar of Khorne or Shield of Faith effect VoT, as you're not in the Area of Effect (which is technically, fluff be damned, the Harly squad itself). The wording of the Null Rod is different, and stronger. Regardless of area, target, or origin, no psychic power what so ever can effect the NR bearer or his squad.

 

That's why we apply that to VoT. ;)

 

Master Incarias, Dreads are fun, but due to the Harlies high I and 25 rending attacks on the charge, you'll be lucky to make it out of the first round. ;) If you do, then next round they disenage. You can never tie a Harly unit up. And fankly they'll only assault it if they want to.

 

I've seen Dreads doing more damage to harly units when they blow up after being destoyed by a Rending hit! It's a virtual given this will happy and we laugh every time a dying dread wipes out the majority of a Harly squad. ;)

 

But, the flaw here is, Harlies (good players that is) that get anywhere near your Dread are doing so to pop it with two Fusion Pistols. They don't really want to charge it, only for kicks and if they've noting better to do.

 

Fusion Pistols on Harlies suck.

 

Back on track, though. Are there any weaknesses to this list? What are they? Can we use them? If not, can we run like scared children? Of course not! We're Astartes. We'll break it eventually. Or 5th edition will break it for us...

 

Nope. No weaknesses I can think of in my long months of facign them. ;)

 

As for 5th, I'm waiting expectantly! %th and the rumours formt he new SM codex will ruin Falcons and Harlies.

 

Falcons will now only ever fire one gun at you. No Eldar player will give up SMF to fire off more. SMF has been totally gutted! WooT!.

 

The Harlies are being down powered by the Rending change and Charge reactions. Imagine the new SM USR being something like "At the end of each Assault Pahse, the SM squad can make a LD test to get a d6/2d6 disenagement move from CC".

 

Harlies charge. Charge reaction lets all marines get into the Kill Zone (so no sniping squads to kill a couple of marines a round to stay safe). At the end, whoever lives past the neutered rending attacks then disengage (Rites of Battle FTW) and next phase Rapid Fires the harly squad well within VoT range.

 

If Grenades change at all, and Plasma get less effective, waiting in cover for he Halies might become a viable tactic. Attack at the same I, then disenagge and Rapid fire whatevers left next turn.

 

Bring on 5th I say!

[Maeklos]

How about 6 20-man Crusader squads, marching resolutely across the board?

[ferrous]

I've surprised Harlequins with GK's psychic ability, Holocaust. Large template, str 5 blast. But you have to have someone survive the charge to get it off (though they do NOT have to be in b2b, so if he charges you funny, to say avoid your brocap or GM, you can pelt him for it.)

[Wildfire]

More importantly, it means that there is a limited amount of places on a normally terrained board where a Falcon can land. (I hope I'm getting this right, my knowledge of Skimmer Transports are a little rusty, I'm afraid).

 

Unfortuantely, you're wrong. Usually an eldar player will try to hide it behind terrain, but it's not limited to open space.

 

Assault Cannons, Heavy Bolter Devestator Squads with Tank Hunter, Plasma Guns, the important thing is to throw a lot of mud.

 

Tankhunting termies with assualt cannons are reasonably good, mainly because they can teleport to the rear. A tankhunting heavy bolter has the same chance of a glance that a normal missile launcher does, and an standard assualt cannon the same as a lascannon.

 

No matter how the Harlies are dealt with, however, this configuration does mean another weakness; numbers. Harlies are not inexpensive. The upgraded Falcon is very expensive (true, good for its points, but still). This leaves relatively few points for the rest of the army.

 

Sorry to burst this bubble, but a normal falconized harlie squad costs 162 points. Maybe that's not cheap, but it's not expensive either. And one of the strenghts of the falcon is that it's so expensive. That means that he's got a lot of points in stuff that's very difficult to kill, which is a good thing (for him). Not having many points to spend elsewhere means that there are relatively few places he can lose them. The tri-falcon list is much worse at higher point valuses than at lower ones (much like 'nidzilla).

 

How about 6 20-man Crusader squads, marching resolutely across the board?

 

True, harlies can't win an assualt against a unit like that, but it doesn't matter. The eldar will just avoid them and shoot with the falcons and jetbikes.

 

 

Tactics I use:

Castle up. Keep your units close enough together to counter-charge, and he can't pick them off one at a time.

Shake the falcons every turn, but don't try to kill them unless you've got nothing else to shoot at. That way they're not shooting back, at least.

You have a turn between when the falcon zooms in close and when the harlies can charge out. Use that to re-arrange your units so that you choose which one(s) he charges.

Units that are going to be charged should try to stay in cover. It won't matter when he assualts you, but frag grenades will let your counterchargers strike simultaneously.

Don't be afraid to lose a squad if it means you wipe out some harlies.

If you're playing an objective-based mission, move on to the objective early and force him to push you off. Don't wait until the last turn, there's too many ways for a mobile opponent to prevent a late-game maneouver.

 

 

An infiltrating SAFH army (or even just one that has lots of heavy weapons in elite slots) that gets first turn does well in non-escalation missions. That seems like a lot of qualifiers, but in tourney situations they often publish the missions in advance. Shooty armies in general are better than assualty armies against these lists. Lists that focus on short-range firepower are much less usefull than those with long-range firepower. Resiliant mobile firepower (i.e. preds, not razorbacks) is good, as usual.

 

 

Remember what makes this list tick. He wants to get an early VP advantage and then spend the rest of the game not losing anything else. If you can force VP parity, he has to take risks to win. Remember that falcons hold points, but aren't very killy (even when unstunned). Harlies are killy but fragile, their main defence is not recieving any attacks (either hiding from shooting, or killing everything in assualt before they can strike back).

[Gentlemanloser]

I've surprised Harlequins with GK's psychic ability, Holocaust. Large template, str 5 blast. But you have to have someone survive the charge to get it off (though they do NOT have to be in b2b, so if he charges you funny, to say avoid your brocap or GM, you can pelt him for it.)

 

It's only the BC or GK Hero that can use Holocaust. The BC is a better choice, as he's not an IC (or if you're interpretation is that the GK Hero is no longer a IC in CC if he has a retinue...) that will be targetted by the Harlies.

 

Problem with the BC using Holo is if he includes a Farseer with runes of warding. You've got more chance of blowing up your entire squad. Not really a power I put much use in. :rolleyes:

[Master Incarias]

Unfortuantely, you're wrong. Usually an eldar player will try to hide it behind terrain, but it's not limited to open space.

Now, I don't know about whatever terrain is usually used in Tourneys and such, but the terrain I usually play over is rather heavily forested. Can a Falcon hover above a forest and still disembark its cargo? Once again, a little rusty on these rules... If not, the Eldar player is unlikely to try disembarking inside the forest. At the speed he's moving he'll suffer an 11/36 risk of getting Immobilised just from entering the forest.

Tankhunting termies with assualt cannons are reasonably good, mainly because they can teleport to the rear. A tankhunting heavy bolter has the same chance of a glance that a normal missile launcher does, and an standard assualt cannon the same as a lascannon.

Nope. Your calculations are incorrect. a Heavy Bolter (with Tank Hunters) will glance on a six. A Missile Launcher will glance on a 4+. It's still a glance, but the chances are better.

 

And one of the strenghts of the falcon is that it's so expensive. That means that he's got a lot of points in stuff that's very difficult to kill, which is a good thing (for him). Not having many points to spend elsewhere means that there are relatively few places he can lose them.

Now, let's see. Mathhammer. Out of every Glancing hit we cause, 1/4 will cause damage (i.e. Immobilised, Weapon Destroyed or Wrecked). Most of these will be Weapon Destroyed, followed by Immobilised, and then, dangling at the very end of probability, Wrecked. A Falcon has how many S4+ weapons? Three? That means five damaging hits will take it down, guaranteed. Okay, so that's twenty Glancing hits. An angry unit of teleporting Assault Cannon toting Tankhunter Termies will cause six... Okay, so the Falcon's pretty tough. But, if there's little else to worry about, we can afford to focus our efforts on these huge-point beasties. A single Glancing hit has a 1/9 chance of Immobilising or Wrecking a Falcon. If it's Immobilised, next turn we'll murder it. True, by the the Harlies will have jumped out and assaulted, but hey...

 

Oh and as for Fusion Pistols killing Dreads, I say Whoopee! If he shoots your Dread from 6" and kills it, he can't make an assault. Rain of Bolter Death, here we come! If you're feeling like an evil mastermind with no regard for the safety of his minions, a Venerable Dread will almost certainly be destroyed if you want it to (remember you can always re-roll the result).

[Wildfire]

Falcons can drop off troops in a forest or whatever.

 

My calculations are correct. A heavy bolters fire 3 shots. That evens it with the missile launcher.

 

Actually it's 1 in 12 chance of immobilizing or destroying, not 1 in 9. But that's 1 in 12 glancing hits. First you need to have LOS, then roll a hit, then roll high enough to glance, before you can even worry about rolling on the damage table.

 

Also, no competant eldar player takes fusion pistols. They're stupid. Worse than useless, actually, since they might tempt you to come out of the falcon without charging into combat where you're safe.

[Master Jeridian]

Skimmers can hover over terrain without penalty- and no special prevention of disembarking.

 

As for the Dreadnought- it should never get within charge range of Harlies, the Eldar player has to be doing something very wrong for this to happen.

 

It is too easy to destroy- lots of Str 6, a Prism or Vibro Cannons or if all else fails 6-8 Meltaguns from Fire Dragons...

 

I wouldn't take a Dreadnought against any army, let alone Mech Eldar- too slow, too vulnerable and too easy to take down.

[Hellios]

Since no one has posted this and it may have been over looked it dosen't deal with harlequins but if you can take the falcon out straight away or they are foot slogging harleys then take the good old Whirlwind guess what its guess range barrage I don't need LOS I shall just fire rockets over the hill and far away onto the head of your harlequins. Some people might argue veil of tears still affects you but I would argue no :S that is silly.

[Wildfire]

Well, it's true that harlies whose transport has been knocked down aren't as much of a threat. However, they are still untargetable if they have a seer. That means whirlwinds can't target them either.

[Master Incarias]

Okay, first, on Fusion Pistols, not my idea. I simply responded to the posing of these as problem.

 

Second, Dang! Then ignore my statements as to the deployment of Falcons.

 

Third, the Heavy Bolter. The chances for three Heavy Bolter shots to cause at least one Glance is a little better than 0.4 in 1.

 

The 1/9 versus 1/12 is correct. Typo and subsequent basing of calculations on that typo.

 

And yes, that's 1/12 of Glancing hits. I didn't say it would be easy. But, a Falcon with a Harlie Squad inside represents near enough 400 points. If you manage to Immobilise it, you will be able to take it out in later turns. If you manage to destroy it, that's 200 poits right away, and a likely reduction of the Harlie squad as an added bonus, and, perhaps more importantly, they will be held in place.

 

Ah, Dreadnoughts. Jeridian, let's just say I disagree with you.

 

Finally, I feel I've tried being a good sport here. I realise I haven't got the experience against these lists that some of you have, but I do have a good feel for what my army can do, even against Harlies. No, my army is not the ultimate in Harlie murder. It's not meant to be. What I'm trying to do is figure out how my army could deal with this threat. If you feel normal Space Marines don't have a chance, play another army. Use Necrons; they'll definitely get those Glances. Use Black Templars and swamp the blighters. Use Orks. Use Nids.

 

As Space Marines, though, we do have a limited arsenal to deal with this threat. What can we do?

 

We can build a fortress.

We can target the Falcons.

We could, probably, try focusing on the rest of the Eldar army.

If we still feel defeatist, we can find a competent player and convince/bribe/coerce him into playing us with a Flying Circus list until we find a solution.

 

Dang, that was more of a rant than I planned for it to be...

[Gentlemanloser]

Hey! I mentioned that the Dread thing is usually for a laugh. Harlies killed all the want, last turn coming up and you've a dread near an objective. Fusion Pistol.

 

Plus it's a sure way to take out LR's if you've not included Swooping Hawks, Warlocks with thier anti vehicle S9 Spear or Vibro cannons in your list. ;)

 

Edit: Or got a FP on your Autark / Not using the Avatar. :P

[Sigismund Himself]

Once you've finished, the Librarium would be interested in a round up of key points if anyone can spare some time ;)

[Wildfire]

Okay, first, on Fusion Pistols, not my idea. I simply responded to the posing of these as problem.

 

I realize that. I wasn't directing that comment at you. Sorry for the confusion.

 

Third, the Heavy Bolter. The chances for three Heavy Bolter shots to cause at least one Glance is a little better than 0.4 in 1.

 

I suppose you're technically correct, I didn't phrase it correctly. I rather than saying they have the same chance to get a glancing hit on a falcon, I should have said they get the same number of glancing hits on average. Of course, that's based on hitting front/side armor.

 

Finally, I feel I've tried being a good sport here. I realise I haven't got the experience against these lists that some of you have, but I do have a good feel for what my army can do, even against Harlies. No, my army is not the ultimate in Harlie murder. It's not meant to be. What I'm trying to do is figure out how my army could deal with this threat. If you feel normal Space Marines don't have a chance, play another army. Use Necrons; they'll definitely get those Glances. Use Black Templars and swamp the blighters. Use Orks. Use Nids.

 

I hope I haven't come across as too harsh, nor as disregarding your thoughts. It's sometimes hard to determine the tone of a statement when it's in text format. I (and I think others such as MJ) were trying to correct some misapprehensions you appeared to be holding on to, based on our experiance. I (or we) aren't saying that it's pointless to play against the eldar airforce, but rather showing where some tactics that were suggested would fail in a real world game.

 

Or perhaps I'm the one that's misreading your statment as more defensive than it really is.

[Master Incarias]

Nope, I was indeed feeling a little pressed. My mistake, then.

 

With the background of the involvement of our friends from the Librarium, have we anything concrete to say about fighting the Flying Circus?