The "Flying Circus"

[Master Jeridian]

Did you read any of this thread Thylacine?

 

Your tactic is to destroy the Falcon (right there it begins to fall down fast), then Deep Strike some Terminators into flamer range (so they just happen to arrive at the right turn, and not scatter into the target and die?).

 

A final nail in your advice coffin is the Whirlwind- I hope it's within 24" of the Harlies and you roll double 6 for the Veil, otherwise your in trouble.

[Thylacine]

Master Jeridian,

 

My post was a PM to Allerka, who asked me to add it to the thread!

 

Yes I did read the post and it makes for very interesting reading, I have come up against Harlequin Troops four times now, each time was in a tournament. I hate them, Eldar that is, too cheap and too many units. A quick look at the tournament placings will show that Eldar place well in the top ten of any tournament.

 

I always target the Falcons with everything that will reach them in turns one and two, if they are in range and LoS (remember skimmers moving fast rule) I find that a good number of Eldar players try to hide their skimmers behind small scenery and claim that the vehicle (skimmer) is hidden when they can almost always be targeted.

 

A tooled up Falcon is a hard thing to bring down, but it can be done, with concentrated fire. As for the Whirlwind having to roll for Veil of Darkness, you target the Falcon (if it is not destroyed) not the troupe and hope that you pick up some of the troupe or ever scatter on to them. A lot of players just give up and won't bother shooting at them, deciding to choose other targets which is a mistake.

 

I have seen Eldar players hide their vehicles on the back of the table until the start of turn four (and hot have my Wolf Scouts turn up until turn five!) then rush in to secure objectives. I lost my last tournament game against Eldar when this happened. Targeting the vehicles with a DP can be hit and miss but it is a case of Who Dares Wins! If you can catch them in their transport and pin them you have a much better chance of destroying them. You then force the Eldar player to pull units back to deal with you DP based attack.

 

I have lost more games to Eldar armies than I have won and I am not afraid to admit it, they are a hard army to take on in any form they present on the table in.

 

Thylacine.

[Wildfire]

As for the Whirlwind having to roll for Veil of Darkness, you target the Falcon (if it is not destroyed) not the troupe and hope that you pick up some of the troupe or ever scatter on to them. A lot of players just give up and won't bother shooting at them, deciding to choose other targets which is a mistake.

 

The troupe will never come out of the falcon and just stand next to it, unless the eldar player is an idiot.

[Master Jeridian]

I always target the Falcons with everything that will reach them in turns one and two, if they are in range and LoS (remember skimmers moving fast rule) I find that a good number of Eldar players try to hide their skimmers behind small scenery and claim that the vehicle (skimmer) is hidden when they can almost always be targeted.

 

I've found some Eldar players so blase about it, that they just fly in the open knowing my firepower won't bring it down.

I've had games where I'm firing 2 Missile launchers, 2 Twin-linked lascannons and 2 Assault Cannons into Holotanks every turn, only to shake them.

 

So on average the firepower of a Marine army won't be enough to down a Holotank, and definitely not before it reaches your lines.

That means your putting most of your firepower into a target that on average is going to achieve nothing- what of the rest of the Eldar army whilst you concentrate on this one Holotank?

 

A tooled up Falcon is a hard thing to bring down, but it can be done, with concentrated fire. As for the Whirlwind having to roll for Veil of Darkness, you target the Falcon (if it is not destroyed) not the troupe and hope that you pick up some of the troupe or ever scatter on to them. A lot of players just give up and won't bother shooting at them, deciding to choose other targets which is a mistake.

 

When/If this situation comes up, by all means, grab it with both hands. But it does require a lot of stupidity on your Eldar opponent's part.

 

I have seen Eldar players hide their vehicles on the back of the table until the start of turn four (and hot have my Wolf Scouts turn up until turn five!) then rush in to secure objectives. I lost my last tournament game against Eldar when this happened. Targeting the vehicles with a DP can be hit and miss but it is a case of Who Dares Wins! If you can catch them in their transport and pin them you have a much better chance of destroying them. You then force the Eldar player to pull units back to deal with you DP based attack.

 

DP = Daemon Prince? Drop Pod?

 

You can't 'pin' a Holotank- it can always move unless you Immobilise it or Destroy it- both of which are slim odds.

 

The point is, most of the 'tactics' suggested require a huge amount of luck and a lot of mistakes on the Eldar part- you can't rely on that.

Conversely, the 'tactics' of the Eldar army will happen unless the Eldar player has extremely bad luck, or makes blindingly obvious mistakes (like disembarking Harlies to sit next to a Falcon in Whirlwind range)- you can rely on this not happening.

[Master Incarias]

you target the Falcon (if it is not destroyed)

 

This is the problem with the Whirlwind idea (which is otherwise not bad). The Harlequins will disembark in two situations (three if you count getting a Penetrating Hit before they manage to move their Falcon): to assault you, or when their Falcon goes down. In the first case, you won't have the chance to shoot them, because they'll be in combat before your next shooting, in the second, there's no Falcon to target.

 

Don't get me wrong, againbst foot-slogging Harlies (and yes, they're out there, if maybe not in tournaments) targetting the vicinity with Ordnance is a very viable way of taking them out, as is using Fury of the Ancients. Against our Monty Python-inspired pointy eared friends, though...

[Master Incarias]

Sorry about the double-post, but I thought I'd spread the news that the article is up. It's in the Tactics section of the Librarium.

[vorkung]

Here's something I've done quite a few times against Harlies.

 

I use Tigurius (I play UMs), Termies, Vindies, Dreads and Tacs in rhinos most of the time.

I place most of army right in the face of the enemy during deployment, and leave Tigurius and backup units such as assault squads and LSTs about 12"-18" behind the main line. This way, I draw as much fire as possible to the units in the main line. Considering I go second I usually have a few units left around to damage whatever shot at me first. I use these to stun wave serpents/falcons/fireprisms in my next turn. What usually happens in my opponent's next turn is that the opponent's Harlies come out and assault the remainder of my line, preferably the termies. If my termies are wiped out (which usually happens), they usually advance into the next unit to keep in CC, or they wouldn't have charged at all. In my next turn I use Tigs with FotD and try to push them out into the open. Then I shoot them with my backup and everything thats left. If the harlies die earlier than that, I stun the vehicles or at anything else till the end of the game ends, depending on situation.

 

It doesn't always help me win, but hey, at least all the clowns are dead.

 

Ok, I'm done. Feel free to shoot down this idea now.

 

<_<

[Wildfire]

I use Tigs with FotD and try to push them out into the open

 

What?

[Master Jeridian]

All I read Vorkung was that the Harlies wiped out a Termie squad whilst single-handedly forcing your entire army to play defensively to try to stop them (and fail)- before they are eventually wiped out.

 

It may be confusing but:

 

Harlies- Near guaranteed to kill more than their points before dying, who cares if they are eventually wiped out.

Falcon- Near guaranteed to never be destroyed, who cares if they don't kill much.

 

So the two are opposites- combine them to win.

 

 

Not sure why you keep mentioning Stunning, Falcons don't care. They will still move, they will still claim objectives, if empty they will just move into hiding, then next turn move out and shoot again.

[vorkung]

I use Tigs with FotD and try to push them out into the open.

 

Ah...just read the C:SM again, page 26 clearly says that this tactic isn't viable..so ignore this..

 

As for stunning, since mech eldar harlies mainly rely on their vehicles for heavy fire support you just keep stunning them to keep them from shooting. While they don't die, they won't be able to do anything other than move or deploy the harlies inside. The reason for this is to draw the eldar player into using his harlies to charge my force in unfavourable situations for him, unfavourable meaning not being able to reach for safety of cover or other squads once they wipe out the unit they charged. Which is also why my bait is usually terminators, since they almost always get wiped out due to their small numbers.

 

The original idea was to use Tigurius to make the harlies fall back out of the safety of combat using FotD, then shoot them to pieces. But I misread the FotD entry; looks like that can't be done. It was my first few games using librarians, after all.

[Eiric Hakon]

How about drop pods/deep strike?

 

Kit out men with meltas/plasma and a drop pod...have nothing on the table to start with and then drop everything at once....aim for rear armour with a dread and/or a melta squad...then cut him/her up with lots of marines...

[Master Incarias]

The problem, once again is the combination of Holo-fields and the Skimmers Moving Fast rule. Together, they mean that even a concentrated effort is likely not to damage a Falcon severly enough to stop it, even less to take it down. Even getting a rear shot, a bolter (which would be the best chance; drop in a Pod full of Marines and Rapid Fire at the rear door) has a 1 in 216 chance of killing a Falcon. Not really good odds (the chances of Immobilising it are 1 in 54). Even a Melta shot at short range has only a 1 in 36 chance of killing it (and a 1 in 9 of Immobilising it).

 

And when we've failed to Destroy it, the Harlequins will disembark and slaughter the most expensive squad in reach.

[brother carc]

Ok so im completely new to this so please dont bite my head off if it sounds ridiculous.....

 

how about sitting a librarian with a combi flamer, jump pack, iron halo and veil of time in the middle of your troops.IC status should stop him from being picked off by the inevitable pathfinders.Wait for the harlies to charge, then in your turn use veil of time and your flamer, the jump pack should get you in range. Rerolls should ensure everything touched by the template takes a wound. Then to finish the job charge into combat, they'll go first but any rends you take youve got a 4+ rerollable save against.

 

Obviously this is a huge points sink but he should do the harlequins over most times and anyone else he meets will be similarly minced. You can even count the PH as a free added bonus.

[Master Incarias]

First, welcome to the B&C, Brother!

 

Second, you can't shoot into a close combat. I would gladly flame my own troops to get the Harlies, but sadly no...

[brother carc]

Thanks for the welcome, been meaning to join for ages

 

i was thinking of the flamer only if youre fortunate enough to fall back from the combat/ hes bad enough to wipe his target out. of course if that happens the harlies are probably dead anyway as a result of being surrounded by (slightly annoyed) bolter wielding marines. With that in mind, drop the flamer for a bolt pistol and terminator honours. not sure of the maths but i think the libby should average between 4 and 5 wounds before their saves.

[Master Incarias]

With 5th Edition just round the corner, what will happen to the Flying Circus?

 

First of all, the Falcon. For these blighters, the changes to Skimmers Moving Fast mean that the chance returns to actually Penetrate a mobile Falcon. Skimmers also need to move faster to claim the save granted by moving, meaning they won't be able to shoot. On the other hand, a slow moving (less than 12") skimmer will not crash due to being Immobilised.

 

The changes to the damage table are less beneficiary, reducing the chances of a Penetrating hit to kill a Holo-Field Falcon to 1 in 9, and the chances of a Glancing hit to do the same to zero (barring AP1 or built-up damage).

 

These things considered, it will be a little easier to bring a Falcon down with high-strength weapons (AP1 also helps), but low-Strength weapons will suffer.

 

As for the Harlies themselves, the changes to how Assaults work will help us. First of all, it will no longer be possible for the Harlequins to avoid getting hit back, unless they annihilate a squad completely, as all models engaged at the beginning of the assault phase get to strike. The Assault Reaction rule will help an engaged unit to bring all their might to bear, and Harlequins are weak defensively.

 

Perhaps more important are the changes to the end of the Assault. First the changes to assault results mean that a badly battered squad is likely to run, and combined with the loss of the ability to consolidate into combat, this means that we will more oftn get to shoot the victorious Eldar Clowns.

 

Finally, Rending has become a little less intimidating.

 

So, what have I missed?

 

EDIT:

Whohoo, six hundred posts!

[Allerka]

I think those are most of the points to cover.

 

Also take into consideration, two of the three types of missions involve securing objectives, so dropping points into lots of Harlies, Falcons, and Pathfinders, will leave them in a difficult position to win. Yeah, they can contest objectives all day, but the best they could hope for is a draw, and not an actual win.

 

I think we can say this list has been pretty thoroughly neutered in 5th, though I'm sure we'll still see elements of it around.

[Brother Nihm]

The problem is that a decent sized harlie squad will be able to kill off an entire squad in one charge but, the subsequent opening to rapid fire/shoot them is an added bonus, giving us a chance for revenge which we didn't have in 4th. :huh:

[General Retreat]

I haven't read anything for 5th edition yet, but since there will be no more SMF bonus for moving 12" or less, and (I assume) infantry cannot deploy from a vehicle that has moved over 12", wouldn't that mean that on the turn that the Eldar player plans to deploy, he has to let his Falcons become vulnerable? New damage tables, Front AV 12, and no more glance-only modifier, not to mention AP1 weapons having proper effect means this could turn into a one-trick pony. Sure, they may get there, but at significant risk to the (expensive) transport. Harlies will always be dangerous and tricky, that's the point, but like so many other things I hear about 5th Ed, they are going to be incredibly vulnerable if unsupported.

 

I think we'll still see these lists, but an Eldar player is now going to have to make hard choices between preserving units until the right time, and getting his ultra-elite CC squad stuck in when they can still make a difference.

 

I can see a 10 man Las/Plas squad receiving this charge, splitting into combat squads beforehand to put the LC and PG and Seargent in a separate unit in the back, loosing 5 bolter marines to hold up the harlies, getting one good kill shot through the cupola of the Falcon, and/or shooting the stuffing out the clowns before they get any further.

 

Couple rounds like that and we'll be seeing wraithguard armies all the time, methinks...

 

-Gen Retreat

[jasokuuhl]

My insights for Eldar under the new Rule system:

 

1) Yes Falcons look like they are finally easier to kill recieving penetrating hits, and having to move up to 12-24" to actually recieve a 4+. But this 4+ is also the problem that I see.

With the new line of sight rules it will be possible again to hide one Falcon behind another !! Just imagine a Farseer casting fortune on the first falcon which will be movin just over 12" to get a whooping rerollable 4+ save. That will be even harder to kill than it ever was before. Also if you finally should get through the synchronized 4+ you will still have to roll for penetrate and after that 2 dice taking the lowest to see what happened. But if the Falcon saves it can shoot normally next round which is better then now.

And the best thing is that all subsequent Falcons behind this first one will recieve a 4+ cover from the first(if you can see less than half), but you might also not see it at all.

 

2)But why take a falcon if a wave serpent is even better for the job having a special field allowin max. strenght 8 hits and I can still give it a synchronized 4+ save. Perhaps we will finally see more of them on the battlefield , especially since every squad can use them now, AND THIS ALSO MEANS HARLIES CAN USE A SERPENT. Damn funny I just noticed that while typing LOL....

 

3)Tank shocking will be fun with each falcon generating a strenght 10 hit when having moved 21". Damn I would ram right through a land speeder squadron if I get the chance, or from one flank to the other getting the hard tank´s side armor relying on my holofield to keep me safe since the other tanks don´t have that.

 

4)The new emergency disembarkment does not force an armor save any more but just a strenght 3 hit if the vehicle is destroyed with the highest result on the damage table.

 

5)Harlies get nerverd .... YEAH .... So on average a six men Clown squad will on average only dish out 2,66 rending and 5,3444 wounds, meaning 8 wounds from which three should igore the armor. On average 4 dead marines which is a great improvement from 4 dead marines from rending only in last edition. And the rest of the marines now finally get to counter the Clowns and will pretty surely destroy them. The wave serpent could of course as I just noticed just transport more, but 10 Harlies are VERY expensive, (like 250 points) and still only do like 4,5 rending wounds and 11 normal. Yes I now that is a full marine squad in damage but still no comparison to last edition where 8 would die on rending alone :-(. With a bad roll the 250 points could be gone pretty fast.

 

And this being only an insight on the Eldar Airforce. There are also some other things giving me a head:

Sprinting Avatar

Sprinting Scorpions coming from the flank being infiltrators

Fortuned Warwalkers in some nice cover (synchronized 4+or 3+ save) dishing out 24 strenght 6 hits each round or also coming from the flank being scouts :-)

Footslogging Armies with a guardian shield up front with a fortuned 5+ Cover Save giving the Aspect troops behind a 4+ Cover Save.

...

[Brother Vyze]

My insights for Eldar under the new Rule system:

 

3)Tank shocking will be fun with each falcon generating a strenght 10 hit when having moved 21". Damn I would ram right through a land speeder squadron if I get the chance, or from one flank to the other getting the hard tank´s side armor relying on my holofield to keep me safe since the other tanks don´t have that.

 

4)The new emergency disembarkment does not force an armor save any more but just a strenght 3 hit if the vehicle is destroyed with the highest result on the damage table.

3 is not a good idea and 4 is wrong.

The Falcon will be taking a Strength 7 hit in return and because you moved 'flat out' you can be destroyed on a glancing hit.

As for point 4, the Strength 3 hit is if you are in the blast radius a Destroyed-Explodes result. Models inside take a Strength 4 hit, which is worse for the Harlies

[SeattleDV8]

I can see a 10 man Las/Plas squad receiving this charge, splitting into combat squads beforehand to put the LC and PG and Seargent in a separate unit in the back, loosing 5 bolter marines to hold up the harlies, getting one good kill shot through the cupola of the Falcon, and/or shooting the stuffing out the clowns before they get any further.

 

-Gen Retreat

Combat squad can't be split off during the game . this is done before deploment ..the idea is still good. put the heavy and special in one squad and use the bolter squad as a speed bump.

[Bannus]

I'm wondering about the viability of Bikes/Assault Marines to defeat the skimmer/deployment issue.

 

If the Eldar player wants his unit to assault immediately after deploying, then he will have to wait until the beginning of his next turn to deploy them.

 

If you can get even one Bike or Assault Marine to 1" from his rear door, he cannot deploy his unit and must delay deploying for two more turns or deploy them at the end of his next turn where they will then be partially exposed. Either way, the slower speeds necessary to deploy will make his skimmers more vulnerable.

 

Food for thought anyway. Kick it around a bit. :D

[OwenCrute]

I think the combat-squad-bolter-marine-speedbump times 3 or 4, with a counterattack with a tooled-up anti-Rending (Iron Halo) IC, after a round of half an army's combined shooting might work. Of course, I've never played the army, but massive overkill seems to be effective.

 

Can we DS/Infiltrate two of anything that has short-range tankbusting ability and high LD to try to block lanes of passage for the Falcon, and dangerous to be able to destroy it if it tries to Tank Shock? I'm thinking Assault Termies w/ THs or even a nice Veteran or Assault squad with PPs, meltas and as many PFs as possible. With two different squads of threats, even if one is destroyed by Tank Shock or shooting, the other still has a bunh of angry SMs in it waiting to extract vengeance on either the Falcon or the rest of their army, which will be nice and worrying for the Eldar player, without being tooled specifically to smasherate the Flying Circus (the angry Assault/Vet/Termies will chew through the Avatar, other tanks etc just as quick). Even Scout Squads with a Missile Launcher and Bolters or Sniper Rifles might work. That could get you enough time to get a Pred or six (hehe) into a fire lane and blow it to bits with sheer weight of fire.

 

Kindly shoot holes in this, i have no idea if any of my points are valid, so i'm flying on a wing and a prayer here.

 

+EDIT+ What about using an Assault Squad's mobility to jump over behind the Falcon, blast BP and flamer/PP shots into it, then charge? will that a splode a falcon? Someone do the mathammer? 10 Assault marines, 7 or 8 (can i kit out the Sarge?) BP shots, 2 or 3 flamer/PP shots and something like 30 attacks on the charge? Give the Sarge a Pfist or Meltabombs?