Ubermensch Commander Posted May 5, 2008 Share Posted May 5, 2008 2) so.....Choas lost the tank battle and virus bombed the planet. Yet the Tallarns still remain as one of the most respected Imperial Guard Regiments out there. Not so phyrric as they continued to support the Imperium, rather like the Valhallans when their planet got turned into an Ice World by being knocked farther back in orbit. In typical fashion, the Iron Warriors lost and spitefully gave a virus bomb of F*** YOU! to the Tallarns. Imperial victory, i fail to see what was phyrric about it. Nasty out come to be sure. But Phyrric? They got a badass Imp guard regiment(s) out of it. Except that that's not really the way it happened. The Iron Warriors arrived at Tallarn and immediately virus bombed the planet so as to destroy any opposition. The Tallarn PDF hid in underground bunkers and therefore most managed to survive. The Iron Warriors then landed a massive armored force that clashed with the Tallarn tanks and fought to more or less a standstill except that the Iron Warriors had less tanks to commit to the battle and therefore their losses were disastrous when taken as a percent of their standing army and not simply a gross number. Furthermore, the remaining chaos forces were needed to attack Terra and therefore had to withdraw. Yeah, we lost, I admitted that in my initial post, but the victory is plenty phyrric as the planet went from a verdant paradise to a poisonous desert. Another Imperial victory like that and the planet will become completely inhospitable and covered in demonic Bob Saget clones. hahah truly a terrifying prospect, all those Bob Saget clones! Despite my error in chronology of events, my point still stands. Yes a verdant paradise world was turned into a wasteland, but it still was not rendered useless to the Imperium. A phyrric victory would have been the Imperium commiting massive forces to the planet only to have it rendered useless to them afterward. Yet powerful defenders(as far as Guard regiments go) are still raised there and it continues to support the Imperium, albeit in a different way. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/135355-why-did-the-siege-of-terra-fail/page/3/#findComment-1562303 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sons of Horus Posted May 5, 2008 Share Posted May 5, 2008 why doesn't anyone consider the emperor's almost death? i mean after that fight with Horus, the emp wouldn't be able to do anything. he's as good as dead. only use of him after was lighting the Astronomicon. why didn't the traitors push their advantage as well? no Horus and no Emp. looks like a draw. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/135355-why-did-the-siege-of-terra-fail/page/3/#findComment-1562320 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ubermensch Commander Posted May 5, 2008 Share Posted May 5, 2008 why doesn't anyone consider the emperor's almost death? i mean after that fight with Horus, the emp wouldn't be able to do anything. he's as good as dead. only use of him after was lighting the Astronomicon. why didn't the traitors push their advantage as well? no Horus and no Emp. looks like a draw. Beacuse although the Emperor's dream for humanity is damn near dead, the Imperium still stands with none of the Traitor Primarchs running it. The plan was, kill Emperor, set up Horus. The Emperor is still alive with the Astronomicon being VERY important to mankind's survival. The Traitors were thrown back into a literal hell while the Loyalist Primarchs reshaped the Imperium and recieved the (nigh and sometimes literal) worship of the Imperial citizenry.That is why it is not considered a draw. The Traitor's didn't push the advantage because the Advantage slipped away with Horus death and the lifting the Siege of Terra. They didnt have a unified leader anymore and ALOT of them died at the siege. They had to fall back and regroup and the Loyalists kept pushing them back until the Eye of Terror was the only(main) place to go. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/135355-why-did-the-siege-of-terra-fail/page/3/#findComment-1562394 Share on other sites More sharing options...
brother Hastatus Posted May 5, 2008 Share Posted May 5, 2008 why doesn't anyone consider the emperor's almost death? i mean after that fight with Horus, the emp wouldn't be able to do anything. he's as good as dead. only use of him after was lighting the Astronomicon. why didn't the traitors push their advantage as well? no Horus and no Emp. looks like a draw. Ubermensch Commander gave most of the reasons why its not a draw, but i'll just say a few as well. The Emperor was still very important, even when he was almost dead. Without the astronomican the Imperium would fall apart, with no way of warp travel being possible. Humanity would go back to being many seperate colonies and factions scattered across the galaxy, no longer connected in one cause, and beset upon on all sides by their enemies. They would die. Also, without Horus surviving, the traitors cannot truly win. None of the other Primarches has a clear reason to take command, and none of them are good enough as tacticians to contol all the legions and wipe out the remaining loyalists. With no commander, each traitor legion broke off and did the one thing they could do to survive - run and hide. Even with the Emperor dead they would not have been able to push the advantage. It would still have been a loyalist win - they would be pushed off the planet, just the loyalists would then fall apart themselves without the astronomican. So only a weak Imperial win, but a win none the less. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/135355-why-did-the-siege-of-terra-fail/page/3/#findComment-1562542 Share on other sites More sharing options...
evolved23 Posted May 9, 2008 Share Posted May 9, 2008 Wasn't there a huge psychic backlash after Horus' death that resulted in the leigons fleeing. Also with Horus dead and his sons in flight the other leigons couldn't really stand against the massed leigons of the imperium. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/135355-why-did-the-siege-of-terra-fail/page/3/#findComment-1566645 Share on other sites More sharing options...
moranimal Posted May 9, 2008 Share Posted May 9, 2008 Wasn't there a huge psychic backlash after Horus' death that resulted in the leigons fleeing. Also with Horus dead and his sons in flight the other leigons couldn't really stand against the massed leigons of the imperium. This is true. When the Emperor unleashed his psychic blast that felled Horus, it set panic into all of the daemons from the warp and the traitor legions on Terra. Base morale collapsed in one fell swoop. Will all military cohesion lost, an "every man for himself" mentality set in. The remnants of the Chaos legions on Terra were in no fighting shape to offer much resistance let alone organize a counterattack. Khârn's apparently lifeless corpse was dragged off a heap of dead, only later to be found clinging to life. The Blood Angels launched a devastating counterattack at this time that slaughtered many of the traitor stragglers. We have to remember that Chaos, as its very name implies, is chaotic. As the gods vied for the power themselves (as did the individual traitor legions), their ability to coordinate and implement complex military strategy became more and more difficult. Horus had already lost tactical cohesion and suffered serious command and control loss at the operational level as well. Strategically things were better, but with the failure to hold off the Ultramarines, Space Wolves, and Dark Angels from all heading for Terra, the heresy was basically doomed. Once the daemons and other forces of the warp were vanquished in the Emperor's last act, it was all over but the crying. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/135355-why-did-the-siege-of-terra-fail/page/3/#findComment-1566657 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sons of Horus Posted May 10, 2008 Share Posted May 10, 2008 actually the death or severe injury of any powerful being creates a psychic backlash in the warp. the one created by Horus' death was felt by every traitor and most likley every psyker as well. it was not the backlash that caused the traitors to flee but the loss of their leader. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/135355-why-did-the-siege-of-terra-fail/page/3/#findComment-1566766 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heretic Los Morte Posted August 29, 2008 Share Posted August 29, 2008 Greetings, gents. A Certain thought has occured to me, how is it that The siege of terror really failed ? Based on what I know, The active Chaos legions that were fighting on terra were the : A fraction of the Iron warriors, Sons Of Horus, World Eaters, Deathguard, Emperors Children, Thousand Sons and a fraction of the word bearers no ? . And on the loyalists side there was the : Imperial fists, White Scars, Blood Angels, Small amounts of Salamanders, Raven Guard and Iron Hands. Oh and the emperor's preatorian guard. I know that the ultra marines weren't present and neither were the dark angels, however i am not too sure over the space wolves. Now considering how Horus is the greatest tactician and alongside the legions who have been blessed by the chaos gods, how could they really fail the siege of terror ? I mean considering The Iron warriors were the siege masters, the world eaters brutal frontline troops, the power of sorcery from the tsons and the new found extreme resiliance of the deathguard, how could the imperialists really overcome such power ? Ah yes I know that considering Horus was slain, SO was the emperor (in some sense)... So both leaders were both very much dead but the Chaos Primarchs were still outnumbering the Loyalists so their leadership should not have faltered. Is this based on the legion sizes of the imperialists to be far greater than the Chaos Legions ? Mind you this is not a thread to flame, im just curious as to why the real reasons why the Chaos legions failed the siege of Terra. salamanders, raven guard and iron hands were not present at the siege of terra in any way. after their lashing at istvaan, they were regrouping, and did not make it to terra for the siege Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/135355-why-did-the-siege-of-terra-fail/page/3/#findComment-1675642 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gaz1858 Posted August 29, 2008 Share Posted August 29, 2008 Dark Angels and Space wolves arrived together and began a drop assault on the rear lines of the chaos formation. Upon the arrival of two fresh legions the chaos attack was crushed against the walls of the the emperors palace and the two legions Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/135355-why-did-the-siege-of-terra-fail/page/3/#findComment-1675645 Share on other sites More sharing options...
atin Posted August 29, 2008 Share Posted August 29, 2008 Dark Angels and Space wolves arrived together and began a drop assault on the rear lines of the chaos formation. Upon the arrival of two fresh legions the chaos attack was crushed against the walls of the the emperors palace and the two legions that was after horus died. horus made the "I drop my shields" gamble because of the space wolves and dark angels were on route to terra. plus the defenders had one of the most fortified fortress in the galaxy. that would rise the kill ratio of the defenders.. so 3-4 traitor 1 loyalist.. <-- don’t know for sure but sounds reasonable.. cheers Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/135355-why-did-the-siege-of-terra-fail/page/3/#findComment-1675690 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gaz1858 Posted August 29, 2008 Share Posted August 29, 2008 horus made the "I drop my shields" gamble because of the space wolves and dark angels were on route to terra Didnt he lower the shields to lure the emperor to the ship thinking he could take him down? Thats what i read. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/135355-why-did-the-siege-of-terra-fail/page/3/#findComment-1675704 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jarl Kjaran Coldheart Posted August 29, 2008 Share Posted August 29, 2008 horus made the "I drop my shields" gamble because of the space wolves and dark angels were on route to terra Didnt he lower the shields to lure the emperor to the ship thinking he could take him down? Thats what i read. from what i read, the chaos powers learned of the rapidly approaching DA/SW fleet, blocked this news from reaching the Emperor, but warned horus. horus then debated what to do, for the siege wasnt progressing as rapidly as he wished, and with two "fresh" and undenialby angry loyal legions arriving, needed to break the siege as quick as possible. the news of the UM legion NOT being destroyed as the word bearers promised meant the largest legion was also making its way to terra. so, 3 loyal and pissed off legions coming at horus from behind, while the Imperial Palace was holding on by the blood of the imperial fists, custodes astartes and blood angels. horus then dropped his shields in despartion, making it look like a taunt to the emperor. the emperor, having no knowledge of the doom rapidly approaching Terra (the DA/SW) made a stab at horus. we all know the end result. the irony, if the emperor waited a little longer, he would have been saved, for Russ and the Lion would have viciously destroyed the traitors. but the emperor made the best decision he could, with the information he had. wolf lord kieran Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/135355-why-did-the-siege-of-terra-fail/page/3/#findComment-1676107 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr.(Space)Marine Posted August 30, 2008 Share Posted August 30, 2008 They lost because the Imperial Fists were there. ... ... Just kidding. Most of the tactical prowess of the some of the chaos primarchs was gone from their new egotistic (fulgrim), corrupted (mortarion), insane (angron) and psycho self. Instread of helping out in the siege the ECs went and started beating/pillaging/killing in the civillian area, but the White Scars came over to sort things out. And although the traitors outnumbered the loyalists, they suffered more casualties, simply because thye HURLED themselves suicidaly at the loyalists. Although that caused many traitorsd to be killed, it still pushed the loyalists back due to the sheer ferocity of the atack. My opinions anyway. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/135355-why-did-the-siege-of-terra-fail/page/3/#findComment-1676264 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jarl Kjaran Coldheart Posted August 30, 2008 Share Posted August 30, 2008 from what i remembered from the IA articles and such, the Emperor's Children didnt particpate in the Siege of the Palace, they ran a crazt train on the people of terra. angron and pertabo (or however you spell that emo name) were perhaps the most efficient of the chaos primarchs, angron for sheer carnage caused to the Imperial defenders and Pertabo for breaking down the palace walls. wolf lord kieran Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/135355-why-did-the-siege-of-terra-fail/page/3/#findComment-1676266 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr.(Space)Marine Posted August 31, 2008 Share Posted August 31, 2008 angron and pertabo (or however you spell that emo name) Its Peturabo, and I don't see how its emo, its more ancient greek (not that emo is a culture or anything :lol: ) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/135355-why-did-the-siege-of-terra-fail/page/3/#findComment-1677115 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jarl Kjaran Coldheart Posted September 1, 2008 Share Posted September 1, 2008 angron and pertabo (or however you spell that emo name) Its Peturabo, and I don't see how its emo, its more ancient greek (not that emo is a culture or anything :P ) sorry, i should have been more clear. it would read better as "that emo's" name. this falls back to my well document theory (okay, not well document, but still a theory) that all chaos primarchs were simply spoiled children who rebelled as they didnt get enough hugs from the emperor. to be blunt, the only guy who had a real grudge against the emperor would be angron, the rest were just brats. i meant no offense to the ancient greeks. they were freakin hardcore. wolf lord kieran Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/135355-why-did-the-siege-of-terra-fail/page/3/#findComment-1677875 Share on other sites More sharing options...
c-wrex Posted September 1, 2008 Share Posted September 1, 2008 to be blunt, the only guy who had a real grudge against the emperor would be angron, the rest were just brats. Um...Conrad Kurze? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/135355-why-did-the-siege-of-terra-fail/page/3/#findComment-1677947 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jarl Kjaran Coldheart Posted September 1, 2008 Share Posted September 1, 2008 to be blunt, the only guy who had a real grudge against the emperor would be angron, the rest were just brats. Um...Conrad Kurze? conrad kurze was a nutjob before the emperor ever collected him. he was a twisted, demented murderous version of batman, sans the boy wonder. he ruled those around him with violence and terror. wolf lord kieran Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/135355-why-did-the-siege-of-terra-fail/page/3/#findComment-1677959 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pacific81 Posted September 1, 2008 Share Posted September 1, 2008 sorry, i should have been more clear. it would read better as "that emo's" name. this falls back to my well document theory (okay, not well document, but still a theory) that all chaos primarchs were simply spoiled children who rebelled as they didnt get enough hugs from the emperor. Yes I completely agree. It is an important tenet of the 'nature vs. nurture' argument. Though the Emperor had created almost perfect physical beings in the Primarchs, they suffered from the same fallacies of human nature as normal men. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/135355-why-did-the-siege-of-terra-fail/page/3/#findComment-1678161 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pulse Posted September 1, 2008 Share Posted September 1, 2008 It is an important tenet of the 'nature vs. nurture' argument. Though the Emperor had created almost perfect physical beings in the Primarchs, they suffered from the same fallacies of human nature as normal men. So true, quite sad really, had the Emperor found a way to allow the minds of the Primarchs to be stronger then im sure them Imperium would still be intact with the Primarchs still walking with their legions. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/135355-why-did-the-siege-of-terra-fail/page/3/#findComment-1678209 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Nihm Posted September 1, 2008 Share Posted September 1, 2008 to be blunt, the only guy who had a real grudge against the emperor would be angron, the rest were just brats. Um...Conrad Kurze? conrad kurze was a nutjob before the emperor ever collected him. he was a twisted, demented murderous version of batman, sans the boy wonder. he ruled those around him with violence and terror. wolf lord kieran I find it more interesting to look at WHY Konrad became what he was.Remember that he basically raised himself and survived by becoming a beast The Primarchs who were found early adored and loved their father and were nurtured in return. Angron, Konrad and Alpharius(Omegon) weren't nurtured in the same way due to the unique events surrounding their discovery and upbringing. The Emperor took Konrad and used his abilities to ensure that peace was kept in recently conquered systems, only to turn against him in 826.M29 by trying to have him assassinated (the biased version told by the NL). If it wasn't the Emperor, someone with a great enough influence to control the Officio Assassinorium sent the assassin. So in essence, Konrad was betrayed by the Imperium and in his own limited views, by his Father. Would this have happened if Konrad had been found as a child? I for one don't think so and that's what makes his a tragic (like some of the other fallen primarchs) tale. As to why the Siege failed, A spearhead assault wasn't an option due to the massive defence matrices erected and perfected by Dorn and co (it took the traitors approx. 30 days to destroy these and bomb Terra). So, even after destroying the orbital defences and bombarding Terra from orbit, it took the combined forces of the traitor Legions present - 55 days to reach the inner palace. That alone is a testament to the scope of the battle and fervour with which the palace was defended. Upon hearing that the Dark Angels, Space Wolves and Ultramarines were heading for Terra, Horus was running out of time. That's why he gambled (and unfortunately for him, lost) but, the real reason why the siege failed was because Horus had to assign almost a third of his forces to delay/harass/distract reinforcements, in my humble opinion. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/135355-why-did-the-siege-of-terra-fail/page/3/#findComment-1678260 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gaz1858 Posted September 1, 2008 Share Posted September 1, 2008 Does anyone have the story they can post up? If thats not against copyright? Tere was a bit in the WD when the Dark Angels codex came out(last edition codex) from the space wolf and DA side of things. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/135355-why-did-the-siege-of-terra-fail/page/3/#findComment-1678263 Share on other sites More sharing options...
c-wrex Posted September 1, 2008 Share Posted September 1, 2008 Kieran, consider Russ. Not your beloved primarch, but the man he was. A drunken, gluttinous, hot headed, violent, rash man. Is he really any better? Really? Perspective man. The sin of relativism. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/135355-why-did-the-siege-of-terra-fail/page/3/#findComment-1678550 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pulse Posted September 1, 2008 Share Posted September 1, 2008 That's why he gambled (and unfortunately for him, lost) but, the real reason why the siege failed was because Horus had to assign almost a third of his forces to delay/harass/distract reinforcements, in my humble opinion. Again thats very true, had Horus been able to bring all the forces he had to Terra i think it could have been a different story, with Horus as Emperor. Trouble is saying that, that means the other Loyalist forces would also have been at the Siege or at least close by so, who knows. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/135355-why-did-the-siege-of-terra-fail/page/3/#findComment-1678601 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jarl Kjaran Coldheart Posted September 1, 2008 Share Posted September 1, 2008 @brother nihm a. lets not forget that we know the Lion and the Wolf spent their formative years alone on a deathworld. the Wolf's only company was the she-wolf that adopted him, turning him into a wolf primarch cub (thing), the Lion was truely alone in the forest of Caliban until his discovery by Luthor and the Knights of the Order. both the Lion and the Wolf were then treated as humans, but their early years of life they were little more than animals. oh, and nobody knows of alpharius (and omegron) early years, his rediscovery by horus was when a fleet commanded by alpharius ambused a ship of the luna wolves, and alphaius boarded horus's ship. so we cant say with any real authority was his (their) origin was. b. so the evidence your presenting was from the biased NL book, and it must be remembered that the emperor's time on terra was spent deep in the palace. malcador, the regent of terra, or any number of high ranking politicians could have made such an order. c. using the Lion and the Wolf examples above, while they were raised as animals, they both became rulers of their respective worlds, uniting them under a set of core beliefs, then becoming loyal primarchs. they left the darkness behind them. when cruze became the ruler of his world, he did so through terror and brutality, left a world behind him more afraid of him then repsected, and in his absence the world returned to anarchy. @c-rex good job, you have labled every fault of russ. as any person, he has many. but did you look at him fairly, or in the light you wanted to? for russ a violent, hard drinking, heavy eating man, he was also loyal to his friends, an effective leader of men, a martial warrior who lived by a code. is he better than cruze? i know my answer, do you know yours? lets try to be unbiased. Russ made fenris better than it was before him. that says what kind of man he was. wolf lord kieran Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/135355-why-did-the-siege-of-terra-fail/page/3/#findComment-1678733 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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