Why did the siege of Terra fail ?

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

@brother nihm

a. lets not forget that we know the Lion and the Wolf spent their formative years alone on a deathworld. the Wolf's only company was the she-wolf that adopted him, turning him into a wolf primarch cub (thing), the Lion was truely alone in the forest of Caliban until his discovery by Luthor and the Knights of the Order. both the Lion and the Wolf were then treated as humans, but their early years of life they were little more than animals. oh, and nobody knows of alpharius (and omegron) early years, his rediscovery by horus was when a fleet commanded by alpharius ambused a ship of the luna wolves, and alphaius boarded horus's ship. so we cant say with any real authority was his (their) origin was.

b. so the evidence your presenting was from the biased NL book, and it must be remembered that the emperor's time on terra was spent deep in the palace. malcador, the regent of terra, or any number of high ranking politicians could have made such an order.

c. using the Lion and the Wolf examples above, while they were raised as animals, they both became rulers of their respective worlds, uniting them under a set of core beliefs, then becoming loyal primarchs. they left the darkness behind them. when cruze became the ruler of his world, he did so through terror and brutality, left a world behind him more afraid of him then repsected, and in his absence the world returned to anarchy.

 

@c-rex

good job, you have labled every fault of russ. as any person, he has many. but did you look at him fairly, or in the light you wanted to? for russ a violent, hard drinking, heavy eating man, he was also loyal to his friends, an effective leader of men, a martial warrior who lived by a code. is he better than cruze? i know my answer, do you know yours? lets try to be unbiased.

Russ made fenris better than it was before him. that says what kind of man he was.

 

wolf lord kieran

[Chaplain Invictus]

Was not it Russ who attacked Lion el Johnson after Johnson slew the Tyrant durath? Johnson saw that as treason (P 20 DA codex), and was it not Johnson's legion that split itself? Was it not Russ who attacked Prospero with no hesitation, whether justified or not, he did attack the Thousand Sons homeworld offering little to no arguement against attacking his own brother.

 

 

Keep in mind Russ' home planet was not ran by criminals (unless I'm mistaken), Cruze's was.

 

All of the primarchs are screwed in the head somehow, end of story :blush:

[c-wrex]

@c-rex

good job, you have labled every fault of russ. as any person, he has many. but did you look at him fairly, or in the light you wanted to? for russ a violent, hard drinking, heavy eating man, he was also loyal to his friends, an effective leader of men, a martial warrior who lived by a code. is he better than cruze? i know my answer, do you know yours? lets try to be unbiased.

Russ made fenris better than it was before him. that says what kind of man he was.

 

wolf lord kieran

 

Damn you're fun to argue with!

 

I feel I described Russ in the best possible down to earth way. I neglected to mention his obvious awesomeness, which you eloquently did for me. I felt it was becoming a "Russ good, others bad!" kind of rant you were going on, so I started playing the contrary.

 

I feel the best light to look at Russ in, and the best measure of any of he primarchs really, is how did their legion act? The noble children of wolf have done nothing but act with sterling character in the defence of man.

 

I'm quite jealous really. Vulkan and my green boys don't have nearly the background detail as the Space Wolves. So to answer you, no I don't really know my primarch in as much detail, but I know what there is to know about him.

 

But this is a Siege thread, so what dya say we continue this in pm if you really wish. LEt's not hijack this any further.

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

i agree on the non-hijacking comment, but since i need to make two replies i figure why not? sides, the other thread we talked over was much longer.

 

@chaplain invictus

Russ did attack Johnson as Russ viewed the Lion's direct assault on the Durath tyrant as a smirch on his honor, as Russ vowed to kill the tyrant himself for the insult the tyrant issued. Russ then stopped the fight when he saw his honor fixed, and then fell to a punch from Johnson as Russ laughed. SO yes, Russ attacked a fellow primarch. these two primarchs would duel 2 more times, and their followers would duel also. BUT as friends. the differences of this odd couple became their greatest strenght, and the respect they had for one another was undeniable.

Johnson's legion splitting in half is yet more evidence of the wickedness of Chaos, for even the most loyal brothers may become twisted. and lets remember the traitor faction of the Dark Angels was the faction that the Lion returned to Caliban to train the future Dark Angels. The pride of Luthor say this as an insult, and thus Chaos found another pawn.

 

@c-rex

while the exploits of Vulkan and his sons arent well recorded, the few instances of what is shows the exemplary character of Vulkan and his warriors

a. the challanges between the EMperor and Vulkan (how these mirror Russ), when the Emperor failed to deliver a salmander to the tribes but Vulkan did, Vulkan won the competition. BUt Vulkan saw the Emperor and the salmander, and had the humility to recognize who really won.

b. the actions of the Salamander upon Armageddon. the Salamander marines spent time fixing the water resources of the hives, and fought many rear guard actions to allowing humans to flee the advancing orks. a common expression is you can tell the see who a person really is of a by how he treats his inferiors, rather than his equals. if you believe this (and i do), then the Salamanders are amongst the greatest of the Space Marines.

 

wolf lord kieran

[c-wrex]

Ah, and if only our two glorious legions had been present, the emperor could be outdrinking and teaching us humility even now :lol:

[Mr.(Space)Marine]

I like the fact that everyone is talking about both the good and bad things about each Primarch, because althought the chaos primarchs are always described by the loyalists to be nutjobs, and the loyal primarchs are described by the traitors to be bad, every single primarch has flaws. As somone said earlier, every primarch is really a screwed up nutjob, with a couple of advantages too :sweat:

[Ravingbantha]

plain and simple, horus died. It has yet to be explained exactly why the shields were lowered, I suspect it is Fulgrim, beifly regaining his claim of his bodt from the deamon that is housed within, or possibly the Luna Wolf coulcilman that stayed loyal to Horus (not abadon, the other one, he cut dudes head off).

 

After that the traitor forces lost thier will and began to faulter, combined with the late arrival of the Space Wolves and Dark Angles (2 fresh and ready to fight legions, both with a serious axe to grind).

 

As for how Horus was not able to take the planet before he died, taking a fortress is hard and very time consuming. Your setting down offensive weapons while fighting, and your fighting against dug in and long established defences.

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

plain and simple, horus died. It has yet to be explained exactly why the shields were lowered, I suspect it is Fulgrim, beifly regaining his claim of his bodt from the deamon that is housed within, or possibly the Luna Wolf coulcilman that stayed loyal to Horus (not abadon, the other one, he cut dudes head off).

 

After that the traitor forces lost thier will and began to faulter, combined with the late arrival of the Space Wolves and Dark Angles (2 fresh and ready to fight legions, both with a serious axe to grind).

 

As for how Horus was not able to take the planet before he died, taking a fortress is hard and very time consuming. Your setting down offensive weapons while fighting, and your fighting against dug in and long established defences.

 

hey RB, that second theory of yours isnt half bad. i am assuming your refering to horus aximand, better know as little horus? i remember reading he showed grief at his actions several times in the books, even abaddon said he needed watching.

 

but i do believe they stated horus himself dropped the shields, but GW has rewritten this part of the story so many times it is impossible to say any version is fact.

 

wolf lord kieran

[Eloies]

I think it's funny how evryone paint the Lion in such golden light when the impression I have after reading "Decent of Angels" is a twisted glory hunger man that would do anything to achivie the glory and make sure that it is HIS and his alone. I mean why send home sevral marines after have they had fought loyal and hard to ensure that a planet would not slipp from the Legions grasp? Luther I can understand a little more but if the Lion trually were a good friend and gratefull for all that Luther had done for him he would simpley offer Luther a chance to redeem himself in battle or something I think. So I hope that in a futer HH-book with the DA that they shed some light upon the Lion's action. Maybe he only help the Emperor becuse he know Russ would and did't think that his fleet could take down Russ before he could conntact Horus?

 

And on page 1 somebody claimd that the Lion had the most wins in the crusade next to Horus witch is false. Dorn had it. Horus rising says so.

 

And the main reason the siege faild is in my view that Horus had to little time and manpower to take down the place brick by brick. If he had maybe one more legion on his side it would have been easier and he could proberly ha wiped out a few more legions before he entered the siege.

[Ravingbantha]

I love how every wants to paint the Lion in such a wonderfull light, when the Chapter and it's Primarch's name ceom from the Poet Lionel Pigot Johnson, who wrote the poem 'The Dark Angel' in which it talkes about homosexuality, a man's dark little secret. Kinda Ironic how the Dark Angels have a Dark little secret they don't want the rest of the empire to know.

 

And yes horus Aximand was the character I was thinking of. As soon as I read that part I began wondering about Horus' battle barge shields dropping. Now if I could just get some clairification on my Warhammer Fantasy theory...

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

@eloies:

isnt that the beauty of opinions? we can all read the same book, yet come away with completely different views. after reading DoA i certainly learned alot about the Dark Angels. what these books (the HH books) have done is reveal the human side of the primarchs. the golden view of the Lion has come from previous material written about him, which showed him in a certain light. now DoA shows him a more human way, more rounded. we see his strenghts and weaknesess, and can better make a informed opinion.

i have never seen the Lion in a golden light (i AM a son of Russ), but i do believe he isnt the power hungry monster you say he is. the exile of luther and his followers you decribed was a human mistake of the man. he has the body of a demi-god, the analytical mind of a computer, but heart of a man. and because of this, he is just as likely to take slight at the percieved betrayal by luthor as anyman, maybe more so for the trust he place in luthor was nearly betrayed by human greed.

 

@ravingbantha

well, GW gets its "inspiration" (read: rips off ideas) from any number of sources, some more...unique than others. i have never read the poem by Lionel Pigot Johnson, so this comes as a suprise to me. wow, you learn something new everyday.

what is your WHFB theory? i ask for i must have missed it, but i play more FB than 40k.

 

wolf lord kieran

[Ravingbantha]

look him up in wikipedia, all his poems were about homosexuality. As for my Warhammer theory, I noticed awhile back that the over all map of the world looks like Earth with some differences, most likely due to the addition of the High Elves Island, which looks more like a large metor crater, this would have raised the coatline in amny places changing the over all appreaence.. I realize that this may be old news, but i made a post about it in the "other games" forum and it got deleated... twice.

 

My thought was that if this is the case, then perhaps the warhammer world is actualy earth a few thousand years from now, and the earth or Tera that every thinks is earth in 40k is really not. Simular to what we saw in the first Horus Heresy Book.

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

hey RB,

 

on the theory that the WHFB is earth a few thousand years from now, the Ragnar series wolfblade book has ragnar descending into the older layers of terra, and he wonders how nova yorke and (i think) atlyanta was "back in the day". (these might not be the exact cities he wondered about, but i have no interest in re-reading the books for something so silly). it is inferred that the 40k galaxy is the our future, as it was built upon the remanants of our current civilization.

 

for WHFB, i always say ulthuan as atlantis myself, but the meteor crash does make alot of sense.

 

and i looked up Lionel Pigot Johnson on wiki anf yahoo!, and everything either said his works were about his homosexuality or strongly referencing them. no wonder dark angels wear dresses! (just kidding.)

 

wolf lord kieran

[Eloies]

Intressting that you wolf lord K is so forgiving about the "human sides and misstakes" that the loyal primarches did when you call the ones that went rouge for spoiled brats and nutjobs?

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

@eloies:

i was waiting for somebody to say that.

the difference between the loyal primarchs and the traitor primarchs is that the loyal primarchs didnt let such mistakes fester and boil. russ had a ongoing fued with the lion, yet both fought together.

the IW primarch let his grudes fester and boil over, and eventually snapped under the pressure. the night haunter had a crazy fit and savaged dorn. horus had the title warmaster, yet let the slights of politicians turn against the emperor.

 

most the primarchs acted like children, but only the traitor primarchs let their faults take over them completely. hence spoiled brats.

see the difference?

 

wolf lord kieran

[Ravingbantha]

Ragnar did say/think those things in the book, I remeber it as well, it is possible that IF my theory was correct that the terra that is in 40k could have easily been populated by people from earth and used the same names, human history is chock full of that as it is. Part of what inspired this idea was that in the First Horus Heresy book, they go to a planet that is ruled by a man who believes he is the one true emperor, he lives on a planet called Earth/Terra that is the 3rd one from the sun. I could be mistaken (it happens) but I believe there was refrence in there as well to a planet named Mars in that system as well.

 

It wouldn't be that big of a leap for a colony embarking on a new world to give locations names from their home world, this would help people feel at home. So it would not be unreasonable to think that there would be dozens of planets out there with a 'New York' or 'Atlanta' or some varient of thoses words on the planet. As for the Warhammer map though, it's much less likely that ther's another planet out there is strikingly simular features to earth.

[Rain]

@eloies:

i was waiting for somebody to say that.

the difference between the loyal primarchs and the traitor primarchs is that the loyal primarchs didnt let such mistakes fester and boil. russ had a ongoing fued with the lion, yet both fought together.

the IW primarch let his grudes fester and boil over, and eventually snapped under the pressure. the night haunter had a crazy fit and savaged dorn. horus had the title warmaster, yet let the slights of politicians turn against the emperor.

 

most the primarchs acted like children, but only the traitor primarchs let their faults take over them completely. hence spoiled brats.

see the difference?

 

wolf lord kieran

 

Both the IW and NL primarchs were manipulated and what they did was break away from an authority that they saw as usurping their individual freedom. The Emperor thought that just by virtue of them being primarchs they must serve humanity without question, but were they ever given a choice? This is especially true in Curze's case as his transgressions were at least implicitly supported by the Emperor as long as they were necessary.

 

Oh and by the way, Perturabo was in his own way more loyal that Russ ever was or has been as he agreed to divide his forces (the Space Wolves still operate as one entity, even post Heresy) and embark on missions that he saw as demeaning only to better serve mankind. Point is, that his thankless loyalty led to his fall, a loyalty that some "loyal" primarchs never showed in the first place.

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

Both the IW and NL primarchs were manipulated and what they did was break away from an authority that they saw as usurping their individual freedom. The Emperor thought that just by virtue of them being primarchs they must serve humanity without question, but were they ever given a choice? This is especially true in Curze's case as his transgressions were at least implicitly supported by the Emperor as long as they were necessary.

 

Oh and by the way, Perturabo was in his own way more loyal that Russ ever was or has been as he agreed to divide his forces (the Space Wolves still operate as one entity, even post Heresy) and embark on missions that he saw as demeaning only to better serve mankind. Point is, that his thankless loyalty led to his fall, a loyalty that some "loyal" primarchs never showed in the first place.

 

 

at what point was the Night Haunter manipulated into heresy? from every piece of background released, he was bonkers before the emperor even showed up. the emperor made his murderous talents into a useful force. sadly, horus one uped that.

 

and on perturabo, and i quote from the index astartes articles on the IW, "Having finally found the truth of his existence, Perturabo was initially fanatically devoted to the Emperor and was ready to embrace missions that the other Primarchs avoided." yeah, that sounds like he was manipulated there. the repeated use of the IW in battle without rest was due to the warmaster. not the emperor.

and at what point was perturabo manipulated into commiting genocide on their own home world? when horus gave him the slightest excuse.

face it, the IW were the "postal workers" of the SM legions.

 

and lets remember that the breaking up of forces during the Legion era was also refused by Vulkan and Magnus. is it our fault your primarch wouldnt stand up for his legion? the refusal to do so post heresy was because the emperor never ordered the break up, guilliman did. he has no authority over russ.

 

at the end of the day, Russ, for all his many, many faults (and c-rex listed many of them), held faith in the emperor. perturabo broke faith with the emperor.

 

wolf lord kieran

[Rain]

"Faith" as a quality is not really a good thing, pragmatism is. So yes, all of the chaos primarchs "broke faith" but then again, they are still around and in positions of influence, while the ones that kept faith are all dead or missing. And yes they were manipulated, Curze only fully turned on the Emperor when an assassin made an attemot on his life. What would you have done?

 

As for Perturabo, sure nobody forced him to cull his own planet, but nobody forced Russ into massacring the Thousand Sons either, and by the way, had he been more diplomatic it's quite possible that there would have been an entire extra legion on the Imperial side. But hey, in the end I am happy that the IW turned coat because as the saying goes, "better to rule in hell than serve in heaven". Independence over servility, especially when faced with a ruler who doesn't deserve the loyalty he gets.

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

if you want to believe that cruze wasnt a whack job before the high lords (because of this point the emperor was on the golden throne) sent an assassain for him, thats fine. the multiple acts of genocide commited by his order were just accident then, i guess. silly me.

 

well, Russ was following the orders of the warmaster, who had yet to reveal his true colors. does this make this okay? no, it doesnt. but what this does show is russ's faith in the emperor and his dream of unification. what makes this sad is the fact the TS might have been able to stay loyal if the orders were never altered. 40k is a grim game.

 

it might be better to rule in hell than serve in heaven, but lets be honest. at the end of the day (or a million days, or however long he lives), even perturabo will have to face judgement. when faced with his actions, then he will know hell. and you call the loyal primarchs servants, but doesnt perturabo serve the chaos powers? i bet they will be happy to play with his soul when he passes. atleast Russ has something to look forward to when he passes. the chaos powers...now those are some great bosses.

 

on the primarch dead/alive count, loyal and traitor are even i think

loyal: guilliman (in a stasis tube), vulkan (missing), corax (missing), khan (missing), russ (missing), dorn (missing, only hand was ever found i believe), manus (dead), sanguinius (dead), jonson (held by the watchers {why??}) so count has 2 dead, 1 in stasis, rest missing

dead: horus (dead), fulgrim (replaced by daemon), magnus (elevated to DP), mortarian (elevated to DP), angron (elevated to DP), perturabo (elevated to DP), konrad cruze (dead), lorgar (elevated to DP)

unknown alignment: alpharius/omegron (1 of them might be dead, who knows?)

 

so, on the dead/alive count the loyalists are at 2 confirmed dead, 1 in stasis (rumored to be healing), 6 missing

the traitors are at 2 dead, the rest not missing but doing absolutely nothing with the exception of angron...and he and a bloodthirster retinue got beat by grey knights.

looks pretty equal to me. loyalists are missing from action, traitors are lurking in the eye goofing around.

 

wolf lord kieran

[Rain]

I am pretty sure that Dorn is dead, it's just that his hand is used as an altar of sorts and the rest of what was left of him is not. Also, Gulliman had his throat slit and was poisoned to the point that he would die if he ever left stasis, which seems like a pretty bad deal and seems just as bad as death. Also DPs are immortal so no, the chaos primarchs will never have to face judgment because as long as there are sentient beings to fuel chaos with their emotions, demons such as them will exist. That is the whole lure of chaos you see, immortality and therefore freedom from ever really having to pay for what you did to get to that point.

 

As for service to the dark powers, many more secular chaos marines seem to have more of a business relationship with the gods than a true bondage. In fact, if you read the IW IA you will find that this is basically the case with Perturabo as he gave the gods captured Imperial Fist geneseed and in exchange they made him a DP. Purely quid pro quo.

 

Finally as for Curze's insanity, this was largely caused by his visions of being betrayed by his father and having his homeworld destroyed, again I think it's pretty presumptuous to just write him off as a "whackjob" I mean sure his methods were extreme, but then so are those of many loyalists and who is the Emperor to wave his finger about genocide when he launched the Great Crusade? My point is not that Curze or Perturabo are nice folks or role models or anything, just that they aren't just crazies or "evil" they were simply doing what they saw as necessary or inevitable and their hands were partially forced.

[Hobo Willie]

After reading the past few pages...how can you say that Perturbo or Curze were not betrayed? The Emperor, knowing that Guilliman or Russ were far to proud to let their Legions to be bogged down in nightmare deployments, called his 'ever ready to obey' son Perturbo and said 'go get it.' You don't think after a little bit of "But Sanguinius' Legion never has to do this...or wait...none of the other Legions have to fight these horrific campaigns!' didn't start to enter Perturbo's mind after awhile? The Emperor pretty much asked for some good ole-fashioned rebellion there since he decided to dump the worst on one son.

 

With the Night Lords, should the story Sahaal put forth in Lord of the Night be believed, even partially, the Emperor definitely groomed the Night Lords for rebellion #2. In fact, all but the Luna Wolves, Emperor's Children, and Alpha Legion were slighted by the Emperor in some major way.

 

In addition, what "darkness" did Russ leave behind? He lived under the protection of a massive she-wolf and then was adopted by honorable, good people who taught him the values that made his Legion what it was. I can slightly agree with you about the Lion, but again, he was found and adopted by honorable, good people who, again, taught him the values that made his Legion what it was. That doesn't even remotely compare to growing up on the streets of a vice-infested city and raising yourself the entire time, while being cursed with horrific visions of a future gone wrong. If anything, Curze was just effed from the get-go. There wasn't anything remotely good about his world and it's little wonder that he became what he was. I'd seriously doubt any of the Primarchs would be any different put in the same situation.

[Mr.(Space)Marine]

In my own personal opinion, I have to agree with Rain and Hobo Willie on the Curze/Peturabo thing. I do believe that it was all the previous things that happened to them that created a tiny little spark, and then Horus, being the supreme diplomat he is, ignited the spark, wih horrific results.

 

However, although I think the IW and NL cases for turning traitor are legitimite, I think its a different story for some the other legions.

 

The ECs, who I personally think are sadistic, disgusting marines who do nothing except attempt to experience more pleasure for themselves, fell from grace because of their idolation of Fulgrim, and their incredibly arrogant and egotistic nature. They still got praise from the Emperor, who did not see these faults, faults which he should have been ironed out before they got out of control (which they did).

 

The majority of the SoH would follow Horus to the very end, and the timing of Horus' rebellion was perfect--the SoH were disgruntled from the Emperor's sudden retreat to Terra.

 

Angron could not swallow his pride, and he was already seeking yet more opponents to dig his axes into. IMO he was crazier than Curze.

 

The Thousand Sons could choose to either be utterly destroyed or go traitor--and to Magnus his Legion was the most important thing. Therefore, facing destruction, Magnus chose to side with Horus and Tzeentch.

 

Mortarion was never accepted by the other Primarchs (except for horus and Curze), who thought he looked funny etc. And the Emperor never really praised Mortarion like he praised some of the other Legions, Horus was closer to Mort than the Emp was.

 

The Word Bearers--the schemers behind the entire thing--could not get over themselves and accept that the Emperor didn't like religon. Lorgar took it personally and in his moment of weakness and despair the Chaos gods corrupted him.

 

The Alphas turned on a more just cause--the destruction of Chaos. The only thing is, Chaos will only get destroyed if Humanity gets destroyed...

 

 

Well thats my unbiased opinions on the reasons of each legion turning form the emperor. I think all of 'em are cool ('cept for the Ecs) so my opinions are unbiased, they are based off my interpretation of the facts.

[Ravingbantha]

"Faith" as a quality is not really a good thing, pragmatism is. So yes, all of the chaos primarchs "broke faith" but then again, they are still around and in positions of influence, while the ones that kept faith are all dead or missing. And yes they were manipulated, Curze only fully turned on the Emperor when an assassin made an attemot on his life. What would you have done?

 

As for Perturabo, sure nobody forced him to cull his own planet, but nobody forced Russ into massacring the Thousand Sons either, and by the way, had he been more diplomatic it's quite possible that there would have been an entire extra legion on the Imperial side. But hey, in the end I am happy that the IW turned coat because as the saying goes, "better to rule in hell than serve in heaven". Independence over servility, especially when faced with a ruler who doesn't deserve the loyalty he gets.

 

 

Rus was told to cull the Thousand Sons, They were ordered directly by the Emperor to stop their use of Magick but they did not. You don't send the Space Wolves to negociate, if you want to negociate you send the Ultramarines of some other chapter that is more level headed. You don't send the Space Wolves anywhere, you unleash them and when you do it's for one purpose. that's why Horus Sent the Wolves, he knew the Wolves distrust towards Thousand sons and used that to elimiated 2 threats from his assault on earth

[Brother Nihm]

if you want to believe that cruze wasnt a whack job before the high lords (because of this point the emperor was on the golden throne) sent an assassain for him, thats fine. the multiple acts of genocide commited by his order were just accident then, i guess. silly me.

Hey WLK, I'd just like to add that The Emperor wasn't in the throne at the time of Curze's first assassination attempt, in 826.M29. The Emperor was interred there somewhere around 014.M31.