Why did the siege of Terra fail ?

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

@ Rain:

1. Maybe because I read too many comic books when I was younger (and still read a select few to this day) I have taken the policy of not declaring somebody dead until I see a corpse. So, no corpse means no dead.

2. Guilliman had his throat barely scratched by the weapon carried by fulgrim, not “slashed” however, this weapon was a daemon weapon (now thought to be the anathame wielded by horus) so a “minor” wound could be so devastating.

3. The eldar and the imperium both have beliefs that there will be a final battle, where the universe is destroyed. I don’t care how immortal you are, you can live through the destruction of the universe. Even the chaos “gods” will get beat.

4. If you believe that quid pro quo will work the the gods of murder, treachery and destruction than I don’t think any agruement of mine will convince you otherwise.

5. I am not labeling them evil for their actions during the Great Crusade. As you rightly mention the number of widespread genocide committed is equal to both loyalist and traitors. How I judge them to be evil is the influence they left behind them. The NL IA article has a ultramarine captain, lucius mysander noted the terror in the faces of the few people with the courage to lift their heads. In a place where he was the most powerful being, the being most able to make changes, Night Haunter made a world too afraid to be human, to afraid to alive. He savaged any person who opposed him, leaving a devastated corspe behind as evidence of his work. that’s why I call him evil. With the ability to make real changes, he squandered it.

 

@hobo willie

1. Of all the traitor primarchs, the only one I believe to have been betrayed was angron. Angron refused the emperor’s command and stayed to die with his men. He was then teleported away the morning of battle, where his men were slaughtered.

2. Again, the IW IA says that perturabo volunteered for the missions the other primarchs avoided. He said “I will go and fight for your father.” he wasn’t forced to go, wasn’t ordered. He volunteered. when the emperor left the wagaing of the Great Crusade to Horus, then he was being used yes. 40k is grim for a reason.

3. If I wrote a book saying that Russ is the most powerful primarch, could I then quote it as fact? I hope not. So why don’t we leave legion biased books alone for a bit? Especially when the main character is a member of the questioned party. (I did like the book, I always like different perspectives on the same story line)

4. Have you read anything about Fenris? Fenris is a cold, miserable death world. Wolves the size of APCs, fauna that will kill you outright and more monsters than a stephen king book. A young Russ, with his wolf pack, survived on this world despite the terrors that plagued it. On the Night Haunter, this now becomes a nature vs. nuture discussion, which is something I normally wouldn’t touch with a 10ft pole. Especially amongst people I like talking to, because views can differ wildly and often these things come off as harsh. What I will say pertains to the visions of the Night Haunter, which is they were always of the worst imaginable thing. According to the IA article, the visions shown to (and I quote) “the blackest paths the future could take unwinding before him”. not the most accurate of paths, merely the most bleak. So I understand he was troubled over this curse (and I do believe such a ability would be a curse), but to base your future actions of them is just wrong. The darkest night is still a passing thing, for the dawn will always come.

 

@raving bantha

1. As savage as your making the SW sound, they are not the blood angels or the world eaters. They are not solely killing machines. Russ was sent to bring Magnus to the Emperor, with force if needed. Horus then changed those orders using his status as warmaster. Like you say, if given the order Russ would assault Magnus. Lets remember that Russ was loyal to the Emperor, and his proxy, Horus. If ordered to kill he would, if ordered to return Magnus he would.

 

@brother nihm

1. Where was this first assassination attempt mentioned? The only attempt I know is the successful one. I would mention that the Imperium is a massive galaxy spanning realm, meaning complete control of every organization is impossible, meaning an assassination order might have originated from somewhere else.

 

 

Wolf lord kieran

[Ravingbantha]

i'm not saying Russ was the nut job some other Primarchs were, but neither was he a diplomat. Russ was a viking a Norse god of war if you will. And while he can be diplomatic if absolutly necessary, but Russ is a warrior first and so will behave like a warrior. From what I know, horus either initaited the orders or changed them to assault the Thousand Sons to remove them both from the equation.

[Rain]

1.)Dorn's copse was recovered as far as I know and incased in amber, his hand (which was detached) was then used as an altar on which various chapter masters would inscribe their names or something similar, his body is just preserved.

 

2.)Semantics, point is he is poisoned and would die if he left stasis

 

3.)As for the eldar and their tales of a final battle and whatnot, I would take with a grain of salt any race that was unable to foresee or prevent their own fall and practical extinction.

 

4.)As for the validity of dealing with the chaos gods, well I'm sure they would be happy to use the demon primarchs, but for that they would need some kind of leverage, remember the gods are basically just extremely powerful demons, they only have power over you if you let them, and not all pacts are ones of service, some are are borne of convergent interest. This is especially true for the Night Lords who hate the very idea of worship and think almost as "highly" of the gods as they do of the Emperor, and although not stated as explicitly, it seems the Alpha Legion and Iron Warriors are also far from pious.

 

5.)Sounds like the Inquisition to me, except the Inquisition doesn't leave anyone behind to be frightened

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

heya rain.

1. i didnt know this. i have only been playing since 2000, so any older sources than that i have to get 2nd hand or borrow, so it is very plasuible i missed that.

2. many of the older wolf players have related to me a belief expressed in older material that russ has departed looking for a "tree of life", whose apples can cure the emperor and guilliman. i dont much about that, but the physiology of a primarch is unknown so maybe he could survive the poison, maybe not.

3. maybe they know of the upcoming fall, yet failed to deliver the message to their entire people. they could have been viewed with a "sky is falling approach". maybe the eldar were so decadent they ignored the warnings...until more is written who knows?

4. while the IW have largely ignored widespread service to the daemons of the warp, they still have been touched by it. the chaos obliteratos were first found amongst the IWs, were they not?

5. the inquisition is wrong. i have no problem saying that. it could be agrued that the Inquisition performs their task in order to protect humanity. weak excuse in my book. part of my love of the Wolves is their ability to tell the Inquisition or other morally wrong factions of the Imperium to piss off.

 

heya raving bantha,

yeah, that is what i have gathered from the HH sources i have read so far.

 

wolf lord kieran

[Ravingbantha]

What I always found interesting is that some of the first Inquisitors were Death Guard and from a chapter declaired Traitors. Wonder what modern time Inquisitors would think of this.

[Hobo Willie]

Kieran:

1) I'm thinking we're just gonna have to disagree, there. Not about Angron being betrayed, but that only Angron was betrayed. I'll stand by my statement that all but the three I already listed had legitimate issues with the Emperor.

 

2) Pertuarbo may have volunteered as a loyal son, but he was soon "typecast" into the role and then used up by the Emperor. The Emperor threw him into the meatgrinder with seemingly little care as to what would happen. If he was only used by Horus, why would he side with Horus?

 

3) Straight IA states that the Night Lords just went rogue. Lord of the Night gives further explanation, although leaves it ambiguous. Sahaal says the genocides were sanctioned. Krieg says they weren't. But if I can't cite that book, which is one of two (total) sources for the Legion, then I guess Curze is just a classic, static villain, the way it has become apparent that you want him seen. I'd, personally, prefer all the Primarchs to have had, at some point at least, some redeemable qualities, and I'd prefer to use Lord of the Night as canon because of this.

 

4) I've read almost everything I can get my hands on about the Space Wolves. They are ridiculously awesome. Thus, I'm well acquainted with Fenris. But you missed my point. Despite growing up in on a death world, he was eventually taken in and cared for by actual people who were, for the most part, good. The same with the Lion. That did not happen for Curze. Regardless of nature vs. nurture, my point was that Nostramo was the worst of all the worlds (save, perhaps, Mortarion's) that any of the Primarchs landed on. There was no safe bastion for Curze until he made his own. No one to take him in and help him. I will maintain that none of the other Primarchs would have fared better. Are you going to say that Russ or Guilliman would have showed up and been all, "Hey guys, this ain't so bad, let's turn this corrupt society around!" 'Cause I'm fairly certain they would have just despaired as everyone else did, not due to a lack of willpower or mental stability, but mainly because they wouldn't have known there was a better existence.

[Doctor Thunder]

The problem with this kind of argument is that all of the fluff is completely fictional (obviously) and has been created by a large disparate group, making it very inconsistent.

Quoted for truth.

 

The seige of terra failed for one reason and one reason alone: Because the writers decided that it did.

 

Don't forget that the vast majority of 40K fluff has been written by professional playtesters, not professional authors, so we shouldn't expect a high level of reason and finesse in the motivations and decisions of its characters. Horus is always described as being a brilliant tactician, but never shown to be one, for the simple reason that the writers themselves did not know enough about battlefield tactics to enable them to imagine what a brilliant tactician would actually do.

 

 

Hmmm... I think this thought deserves its own thread.

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

heya hobo,

1) i am fine with disagreeing, thats what makes people great. differing opinions.

2) horus the emperor's proxy, and could have started everyone of his orders with: "Our father requests" or some other such crap, and then proceed to placate the rage that must have filled perturabo at such orders saying that (horus) "i'll try to see what i can do, but our father's orders stand" or such crap. watch any siblings pass the buck when the parents come down on one of them and see this work.

3) the IA article says that the actions of the NL were because they worshipped terror, not any chaos power. thats why they wents nuts. while Lord of the Nights rounds out Cruze, it has to be taken with a grain of salt.

4. the wolves are ridicously awesome. i am sorry i misunderstood your comment, but as i look the other primarchs (mostly) werent welcomed with banners and confetti, they worked to engrain themselves with their respective people. Night Haunter never took this risk, preferring to stay alone. i cant feel sorry for somebody that doesnt try to embrace those around him. no matter how bad nostramo was, there must have been some good people there. some element of humanity. but cruze refused them to stay with the criminals. in his gloom he never saw the potential of humanity.

 

it is always good to hear differing opinions.

 

wolf lord kieran

[Eloies]

Hey wolf lord K, intressting that you cast so much blame on Horus when it comes to Petrubo when Horus only had been warmaster for around 2 years before the heresey errupted. So how many worlds do you really think that the IW took in that frame of time that Horus ordered them to do? No, it was the Emperor that used them in their roll, and cuse Pertubo wanted to prove himself for his father and brothers he said yes to them in the beginning with joy simply to prove himself. And since it was Petrubo he did very well, so well that for the whole crusade they allways got sent for when there was a tough nut to crack. And since he did't want to be the crybaby he simply accepted and did what he was orderd by his father.

 

And Konrad. A yes, NL were highly effecent at make a population sit tight and do the bidding of the emperor. But when the crusade came to close the ways they hade used for around 200 years did't fit the Imperiums cup of tea anymore. Nihm can surley shed som light what happend between Dorn and Konrad and why he left the Emperor. And don't call the rouge primarchers inmature. Russ smaked down the Lion. Why? The lion killed somebody Russ wanted to kill. Wonder what would happend if somebody took a ball or something simliar from Russ? Proberly the same thing. Acting like a child "Mine! I saw it first!" and so on...

 

Sorry for the bad spelling but hey, it's friday! Cheers and have a good weekend mates.

[c-wrex]

You know you guys, you could just be Sons of Nocturne and none of this would matter :) .

 

Anybody got a light?

 

edited because:i kant spel gud

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

Hey wolf lord K, intressting that you cast so much blame on Horus when it comes to Petrubo when Horus only had been warmaster for around 2 years before the heresey errupted. So how many worlds do you really think that the IW took in that frame of time that Horus ordered them to do? No, it was the Emperor that used them in their roll, and cuse Pertubo wanted to prove himself for his father and brothers he said yes to them in the beginning with joy simply to prove himself. And since it was Petrubo he did very well, so well that for the whole crusade they allways got sent for when there was a tough nut to crack. And since he did't want to be the crybaby he simply accepted and did what he was orderd by his father.

 

And Konrad. A yes, NL were highly effecent at make a population sit tight and do the bidding of the emperor. But when the crusade came to close the ways they hade used for around 200 years did't fit the Imperiums cup of tea anymore. Nihm can surley shed som light what happend between Dorn and Konrad and why he left the Emperor. And don't call the rouge primarchers inmature. Russ smaked down the Lion. Why? The lion killed somebody Russ wanted to kill. Wonder what would happend if somebody took a ball or something simliar from Russ? Proberly the same thing. Acting like a child "Mine! I saw it first!" and so on...

 

Sorry for the bad spelling but hey, it's friday! Cheers and have a good weekend mates.

 

when it comes to horus taking the blame (IMO), i see it as where the emperor always ordered the IW to war, Horus would deliever the orders (in the emperor's name) and then say something along the lines of "its what father wanted". so he played the bad guy in delivering the orders, yet played the good guy in relating himself to perturbo. so when heresy time comes around, you have the emperor, the guy who gave me orders and then ran home to terra, versus horus, the guy who was left holding the emperor's bag and forced to carry on despite disagreeing. the horus comes around, gives him forgebreaker and tells him olympia is rebelling. the pragmatic choice is easy here. go for the guy who tells you he is sorry for what is happening, rather than the distant stern father figure.

 

and i have said i believe all the primarchs are immature. the only difference between the traitor primarchs and the loyal primarchs is that the traitors are emo and immature. why else would magnus, mortarion, perturbo, fulgrim and lograr, the primarchs elevated to DP (in fulgrim case, possed by one) still be sitting on the rears in the eye of terror after the defeat of hours? not one of them has figured "hey, the loyalists primarchs are missing/dead, the emperor is stuck on the throne. wouldnt now be a great time to destroy that empire we failed to 10, 000 yrs ago?" atleast angron comes out to play every once in a while

 

wolf lord kieran

[c-wrex]

Kieran if I remember correctly, demons can't just leave the eye of terror on a whim, as the physical universe causes their demon flesh to dissolve.

 

Although I respect your tenacity and courage and beating back all the posts against you, as a son of russ should, I must point something out: primarchs are not emo. Nope. That kid on the bus is emo.

 

Primarchs are so above and beyond human we simply cannot judge what influences their decisions, although I imagine being saddled with the weight of the entire human quest (horus), being bled dry on battles of no importance (perturabo), having your warning about the attempt on your life ignored and being assaulted for your good intentions (magnus), being prevented from being who you really are and constant chastisement for just doing your duty, as set forth by your father (angron AND curze) would really have an impact on how you see your so-called father.

 

As for the other primarchs who turned, I feel that they turned because Horus leaned on em and conned them into it.

 

edited because: rocking too hard with dragonforce on makes my typing ability fall down like a pile of bricks.

[Brother Captain Aruis]

I kinda want to know why the loyalist legions didn't betray the emperor ? They were just as human as there traitor brothers. So why didn't they go with horus?

[Ravingbantha]

I kinda want to know why the loyalist legions didn't betray the emperor ? They were just as human as there traitor brothers. So why didn't they go with horus?

 

 

Everybody takes a side for whatever reason. why does a person choose Democrate or Republican (rhetorical question no need to go any further). Each of the legions fell for a reason of their own. Personaly I'll stick with my theory that the Chaos gods were setting Horus up for defeat from the beginning, they need humanity, but the Emperor with 20 loyal Primarchs was just too much power and they were afraid.

[Mr.(Space)Marine]

Hey wolf lord K, intressting that you cast so much blame on Horus when it comes to Petrubo when Horus only had been warmaster for around 2 years before the heresey errupted. So how many worlds do you really think that the IW took in that frame of time that Horus ordered them to do? No, it was the Emperor that used them in their roll, and cuse Pertubo wanted to prove himself for his father and brothers he said yes to them in the beginning with joy simply to prove himself. And since it was Petrubo he did very well, so well that for the whole crusade they allways got sent for when there was a tough nut to crack. And since he did't want to be the crybaby he simply accepted and did what he was orderd by his father.

 

I agree 100% with that. I have thought that for quite some time but have never really been able to structure it into a proper paragraph, which you have done here.

 

I kinda want to know why the loyalist legions didn't betray the emperor ? They were just as human as there traitor brothers. So why didn't they go with horus?

 

Because some of the loyalists got praised by the emperor so much that they would never betray their father. If you had the sibling who got the most praise turn on your father, and you yourself got lots of praise too, wouldn't you think "ah if I kill that traitor sibling I will become the most praised one!" Well thats what I think of roboute gulliman but thats another story...

 

Dorn and Sangunius would never betray the emperor, and horus knew this. Dorn's legion wasn't selected to be the Emperor's praetorian guard for nothing, he would rather die than betray his father.

 

I am not as sure why Sanguinius is also extra loyal but I'm sure somone else knows.

 

Horus thought that Jaghatai Khan would betray the Emperor when the heresy erupted, but he was wrong, the Khan's loyalty proved greater than Horus' influence. Ferrus was also thought by Horus to be an option for corruption due to his friendship with Fulgrim, but Ferrus too stayed loyal to the Emperor.

 

Russ would not betray the Emperor because like Dorn, he was staunchly loyal. That doesn't mean he always did what he was told though <_<.

 

Vulkan and Corax seemed to me to be the "yes sir, no sir, three bags full sir" type of primarchs, the ones that always did what they were told as long as it wouldn't upset the Emperor, and they also seemed to work together often so if one betrayed I think the other would too.

 

About the Lion, I'm not too sure. Although I think the DA are cool, I have doubts about the Lion's goals. To me it seemed he was hanging back and waiting until he knew who was going to win before he made his move.

 

 

They are all my own opinions and are by no means right, just what I think.

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

@c-rex

nice to hear from you again, but i have to respectfully disagre with that. while the Primarchs were obscenely powerful, they were still men. even if they were only "tainted" by those humans they lived alongside. they feel pride, anger, and remorse all like us. Like fulgrim displayed in "fulgrim", fits of sadness could strike them. the problem with the primarchs is they rarely got told no, and this built a ego laden shield that if broken, could have some really traumatic consequences.

 

in general: while i do see where horus manipulated the traitor primarchs, he could only work flaws that were already present. by saying this i mean that the flwas of the traitor primarchs were have eventually erupted in rebellion, horus just hastened it.

 

@mr.(space)marine

the emperors children bore both his title as their name, and were the only non-terran marines allowed to display the imperial eagle on their chest plates. doesnt this show the emperors pride and praise of them. the rest of the traitors werent so praised so i agree with what you say there.

and corax might have been a dutiful son of the emperor, but remember he did create the mutated marines after the heresy to bring his legion back to fighting strength. kinda nuts there.

 

wolf lord kieran

[Hrvat]

This entire discusion is very interesting and I have seen people presenting arguments that come from two different timelines.

 

There are is the old timeline - into this timeline belongs the date of Night Hunter vs Dorn as well as much of the manipulation done by Horus on other primarchs

 

826.M29 - Conrad vs Dorn

 

125.M30 - Completion of Ullanor Campaign, Luna Wolves renamed Sons of Horus, Horus granted title of Warmaster - on his way to Terra gets corupetd on Davin and never returns to Earth before the final moments of the Heresy

 

007.M31 - Battles of Istvaan III and IV

 

014.M31 - Siege of Emperors palace

 

021.M31 - End of Scouring

 

If we go by this timeline than all the corupting by chaos was done through Horus which had 9 centuries to turn his brothers and plan the Heresy and Conrad spent more than a milenia rampaging across the galaxy.

 

 

Than there is the new timeline that started to take shape with the arrival of the TCG and art books and was continued by the the HH novles.

 

Prior the Heresy Great Crusade lasted for 200 years so it means it began in 807.M31(812.M31 will explain later) changing the dates of the events Ullanor Campaign and Conrad vs Dorn

 

Don't take this as 100% correct as to check it I would have to reread the HH boks and really don't have the motivation to that. If I recall correctly Ullanor happened in 010.M31, Istvaan event in 012.M31 and Siege as previously know in 014.M31.

 

 

If we go by the new timeline Heresy was a "quick" afair that left certain "loyalists" out of position which allowed Horus to assault Earth.

 

By the old timeline it was a brutal war and it took Horus 7 years before he could manage to manouver his legions to assault Earth with sufficient forces against insuficient "loyalist" forces. In this timeline accusing Lion that he was wainting for the outcome was just plain rude as he just spent 7 years fighting the traitors when word came Horus managed to invade Solar system. As Horus was making progress towards Earth "loyal" legions that were ill positioned at the begining of the Heresy ( Dark Angels, Space Wolves and Ultramarines ) were fighting their way across the galaxy to reach the Emperor before going on the offensive. During this fighting retreat/advance towards Terra Lion and Russ met and it was Russ who was actually slowing down their joint progres by wanting to attack as many traitor on the way as he could while Lion urged for a direct as possible advance to Earth. It was not until Russ sow a vision of future in a crystal ball of some kind that he relented and both legions made a join jump to Earth. Only to arrive just a bit to late when Palace had fallen and Russ fought his way all the way into the inner sanctum where the Audience chamber was.... I digressed a bit.

 

On the other hand Ultramarines first had to stop a massive and well organised assault from the Word Bearers, than fought various other traitors including some Iron Warrior garnisons, Night Lords and a serious confrotation with the Alpha legion ( if that even occured). Ultramarines weren't just going to Earth they were fighting for seven years to reach Terra though it was against "lesser" foes than the three main defending legion who wore the brunt of the Horuses advance upon Earth and its later Siege.

 

These three legions only really abandoned all other fighting and went for a direct jump to Earth when they found out it was under Siege, they weren't doing nothing as many people percieve.

 

The only legion that acted strangely in my opinion were the Iron Hands. They were not decimated by the Istaan massacre like the Raven Guard and the Salamanders ( which were along with Death Guard and Thousand Sons one of the smallest legions ) since they only lost their Veterans though the loss of their primarch was a serious blow. From the information available we can only tell that when they learned of the Istvaan events the rest of the Legion packed up and went to Medusa to mourn their leader and be plain bitter on to become more bitter when they learned that other legions failed to save the Emperor. I am not saying that Iron Hands are traitors or anything but I have always thought that failure to act when it was important was the flaw they are trying to hide with their hate of flesh for a rational mind of a machine would in such a situation did only one thing - protect the Emperor.

 

There is also talk about legion sizes. We will never be sure but I tried to reach some numbers:

 

Ok I went to check a few things just to be sure.

 

Sources supporting Legions strength in thousands - IA articles, HH novels

 

Sources supporting Legions strength in tens/hundreds of thousands - HH artbooks, Chaos Space Marines Codex ( "Numbering hundreds of thousands of genetically-enhanced warriors, with fearsome weapons and starships to carry them to battle, each Space Marine Legion was powerful enough to conquer worlds." pg 7 )

 

Through reading various sources I was able to piece together these numbers. Pre-heresy company was 600 marines strong ( Horus Rising ) at least for the Luna Wolves/Sons of Horus and until other evidence is presented I will apply that number to all legions using companies.

 

Legion - Organisation - Size

 

Dark Angels - Chapters and Companies - ?

 

Emperors Children - Chapters and Companies - cca 18 000 ( 30 Companies at the onset of the HH )

 

Iron Warriors - Grand Companies - 12 000+ ( 12 Grand Companies at the onset of the HH, not counting the scattered troops on various worlds )

 

White Scars - Brotherhoods - ?

 

Space Wolves - Great Company - 13 000+ ( 13 Great Companies at the onset of the HH )

 

Imperial Fists - Companies - cca 30 000 ( 50 companies at the onset of the HH, it has to be taken into consideration they were away from the front live for several years before HH began )

 

Night Lords - ? - ?

 

Blood Angels - Chapters and Companies - ?

 

Iron Hands - (Clan)Companies - 6000+ ? ( 10 Companies made of veterans ( percentage of veterans in the legion unknown ) taking part in Istvan V battle - Fulgrim )

 

World Eaters - Companies - ?

 

Ultramarines - Chapters and Companies - ? ( were the largest so more than 30K )

 

Death Guard - Companies - cca 7 000 ? ( 7 companies that were considerably larger than normal ones )

 

Thousand Sons - Detachments - ?

 

Sons of Horus - Companies - cca 15 000 ( 25 companies at the onset of HH )

 

Word Bearers - Hosts and Chapters - ?

 

Salamanders - Chapters and Companies - cca 6 000 ? ( 7 Companies and based on post-heresy look of the companies probably larger than usual ones )

 

Raven Guard - ? - cca 18 000 ? ( rather large legion considering that at Istvan V loyalists landed nearly 30K of troops of which it is certain 6K were Iron Hands, entire Salamanders and the rest was made of entire Raven Guard legion - Fulgrim )

 

Alpha Legion - ? - ?

 

 

Also it is said that Iron Warriors, Night Lords, Alpha Legion and the Word Bearers under command of Logar numbered around 50 000 marines at Istvan V. So if take there were 12K Iron Warriors, it leaves us with 38K worth of marines among other legions. If we also consider that Logar sent 1/2 ( my conjecture since I never found any reference what percentage of the legion was sent against UM, but considering the size of the UM it had to be substantial ) of his legion to Calth. It would make all of these three legions at roughly 15K at the onset of the HH.

 

Also based on reading Galaxy in Flames I made a conjecture there wasn't more than 10-11K of World Eaters

 

The only legions that currently keep me in the dark are Dark Angels, White Scars, Blood Angels and Thousand Sons.

 

 

 

Cheers

 

Hrvat

 

 

Also there is another common mistake that people make when they take Second Founding numbers as the number of survivors from the fighting direct from the Heresy. These number are how many marines each legion had 7 years after the Heresy following some serious rebuilding and it is not a suprise that Ultramarines were the largest considering the number of recruiting worlds they had.

 

 

 

Hrvat

[Mr.(Space)Marine]

The only legion that acted strangely in my opinion were the Iron Hands. They were not decimated by the Istaan massacre like the Raven Guard and the Salamanders ( which were along with Death Guard and Thousand Sons one of the smallest legions ) since they only lost their Veterans though the loss of their primarch was a serious blow. From the information available we can only tell that when they learned of the Istvaan events the rest of the Legion packed up and went to Medusa to mourn their leader and be plain bitter on to become more bitter when they learned that other legions failed to save the Emperor. I am not saying that Iron Hands are traitors or anything but I have always thought that failure to act when it was important was the flaw they are trying to hide with their hate of flesh for a rational mind of a machine would in such a situation did only one thing - protect the Emperor.

 

From what I gather, the iron hands thought that everyone had betrayed the Emperor after Isstvan V (except for themselves, and the raven guard and sallies which they probably thought got destroyed), and so they entrenched themselves on Medusa (their homeworld) and waited the inevitable attack, which actually never came. And then after the heresy when they heard that only half of the Imperium betrayed the emperor, they got angry at all the loyalists for not being able to protect the emperor well enough, and beat themselves up for not being at the Emperor's side when he needed them most. And thats why the Iron hands are all bitter and angry, and why they hate weakness so much.

 

By the old timeline it was a brutal war and it took Horus 7 years before he could manage to manouver his legions to assault Earth with sufficient forces against insuficient "loyalist" forces. In this timeline accusing Lion that he was wainting for the outcome was just plain rude as he just spent 7 years fighting the traitors when word came Horus managed to invade Solar system. As Horus was making progress towards Earth "loyal" legions that were ill positioned at the begining of the Heresy ( Dark Angels, Space Wolves and Ultramarines ) were fighting their way across the galaxy to reach the Emperor before going on the offensive. During this fighting retreat/advance towards Terra Lion and Russ met and it was Russ who was actually slowing down their joint progres by wanting to attack as many traitor on the way as he could while Lion urged for a direct as possible advance to Earth. It was not until Russ sow a vision of future in a crystal ball of some kind that he relented and both legions made a join jump to Earth. Only to arrive just a bit to late when Palace had fallen and Russ fought his way all the way into the inner sanctum where the Audience chamber was.... I digressed a bit.

 

Well now that you have said that, I guess my opinons on the Lion have changed. But what I said earlier about him was based on my own very limited knowledge of what the Dark Angels did during the Horus Heresy--all I knew was that they got ambushed by the Night Lords, and then decided to show up at the last moment and help out. Thanks for showing me that I was wrong, the Lion doesn't seem to be the traitorous primarch I thought he was. ;)

 

Also I might be using the Legion organisation/numbers thing you have posted there for a map-based campaign/board game I am making of the Horus Heresy. I had never really known what the numbers were of the legions, but you seem to have found most of it out using reliable sources.

[Brother Nihm]

@brother nihm

1. Where was this first assassination attempt mentioned? The only attempt I know is the successful one. I would mention that the Imperium is a massive galaxy spanning realm, meaning complete control of every organization is impossible, meaning an assassination order might have originated from somewhere else.

 

 

Wolf lord kieran

In Lord of the Night (note that the mini-story the Dark King contradicts this)

[Eloies]

Hey wolf lord K, intressting that you cast so much blame on Horus when it comes to Petrubo when Horus only had been warmaster for around 2 years before the heresey errupted. So how many worlds do you really think that the IW took in that frame of time that Horus ordered them to do? No, it was the Emperor that used them in their roll, and cuse Pertubo wanted to prove himself for his father and brothers he said yes to them in the beginning with joy simply to prove himself. And since it was Petrubo he did very well, so well that for the whole crusade they allways got sent for when there was a tough nut to crack. And since he did't want to be the crybaby he simply accepted and did what he was orderd by his father.

 

And Konrad. A yes, NL were highly effecent at make a population sit tight and do the bidding of the emperor. But when the crusade came to close the ways they hade used for around 200 years did't fit the Imperiums cup of tea anymore. Nihm can surley shed som light what happend between Dorn and Konrad and why he left the Emperor. And don't call the rouge primarchers inmature. Russ smaked down the Lion. Why? The lion killed somebody Russ wanted to kill. Wonder what would happend if somebody took a ball or something simliar from Russ? Proberly the same thing. Acting like a child "Mine! I saw it first!" and so on...

 

Sorry for the bad spelling but hey, it's friday! Cheers and have a good weekend mates.

 

when it comes to horus taking the blame (IMO), i see it as where the emperor always ordered the IW to war, Horus would deliever the orders (in the emperor's name) and then say something along the lines of "its what father wanted". so he played the bad guy in delivering the orders, yet played the good guy in relating himself to perturbo. so when heresy time comes around, you have the emperor, the guy who gave me orders and then ran home to terra, versus horus, the guy who was left holding the emperor's bag and forced to carry on despite disagreeing. the horus comes around, gives him forgebreaker and tells him olympia is rebelling. the pragmatic choice is easy here. go for the guy who tells you he is sorry for what is happening, rather than the distant stern father figure.

 

 

Hey wolf lord K. From what I have understand from the HH-books Horus was warmaster for around 2 years (legion say something about this) before the Istvaan-thing. So before that it was the Emperor who had the lead and had supreme command. Before Horus was made warmaster the primarch was a brotherhood of equals. Horus would not order anybody around if not sevral legons worked togehter on a campagn and he was apointed commander for that campagn. So for 200 years it was the emperor who said who was to make war were. Not Horus. He only did it for two years. Ergo It was the Emperor that made the IW go to the trench. And I see no reason what so ever that Horus should waste his time on telling Petrubo were he should make war "Hey dad ask you to take Betaloin III" when it surely would be more simple to send it via an astropath "By orders of the Emperor the 96 (or what number Petrubo expedition fleet had) expedtitions fleet is to make way towards Betaloin III and realive the "inserts other legion here" and take the eldar citidel there." Something along those lines. So tell my why in gods name would the Emperor have to ask Horus to say that to he's brother when they (at the time) had the same rank. Don't make any sense. So you can't blame Horus for Petrubos fall.

 

Petrubo was a very proud indivdual (said in the books that he was one of those that rage most that Horus was made Warmaster when he had fought as hard as any other) so he gets the toughest jobs by their father, then he has to split he's own legion for the stars in garrison units? :cuss? So when Horus comes with an with the offer and says things like "I know our father has treated you bad but I feal you pain and we can make him pay for it, we can make sure you get the cred that is yours by right. " and then he tells the tale how the Emperor will throw away he's sons in he's quest for godhood. And Petrubo that allready feals used are ready to belive this by he's whole heart. (And having to slaugther he's home planet and getting a deamon wepon from horus proberly made him a little easeir to get on Horus side.

 

Sorry for the bad spelling but hangovers will do that to you.

[Hrvat]

Hey wolf lord K, intressting that you cast so much blame on Horus when it comes to Petrubo when Horus only had been warmaster for around 2 years before the heresey errupted. So how many worlds do you really think that the IW took in that frame of time that Horus ordered them to do? No, it was the Emperor that used them in their roll, and cuse Pertubo wanted to prove himself for his father and brothers he said yes to them in the beginning with joy simply to prove himself. And since it was Petrubo he did very well, so well that for the whole crusade they allways got sent for when there was a tough nut to crack. And since he did't want to be the crybaby he simply accepted and did what he was orderd by his father.

 

And Konrad. A yes, NL were highly effecent at make a population sit tight and do the bidding of the emperor. But when the crusade came to close the ways they hade used for around 200 years did't fit the Imperiums cup of tea anymore. Nihm can surley shed som light what happend between Dorn and Konrad and why he left the Emperor. And don't call the rouge primarchers inmature. Russ smaked down the Lion. Why? The lion killed somebody Russ wanted to kill. Wonder what would happend if somebody took a ball or something simliar from Russ? Proberly the same thing. Acting like a child "Mine! I saw it first!" and so on...

 

Sorry for the bad spelling but hey, it's friday! Cheers and have a good weekend mates.

 

when it comes to horus taking the blame (IMO), i see it as where the emperor always ordered the IW to war, Horus would deliever the orders (in the emperor's name) and then say something along the lines of "its what father wanted". so he played the bad guy in delivering the orders, yet played the good guy in relating himself to perturbo. so when heresy time comes around, you have the emperor, the guy who gave me orders and then ran home to terra, versus horus, the guy who was left holding the emperor's bag and forced to carry on despite disagreeing. the horus comes around, gives him forgebreaker and tells him olympia is rebelling. the pragmatic choice is easy here. go for the guy who tells you he is sorry for what is happening, rather than the distant stern father figure.

 

 

Hey wolf lord K. From what I have understand from the HH-books Horus was warmaster for around 2 years (legion say something about this) before the Istvaan-thing. So before that it was the Emperor who had the lead and had supreme command. Before Horus was made warmaster the primarch was a brotherhood of equals. Horus would not order anybody around if not sevral legons worked togehter on a campagn and he was apointed commander for that campagn. So for 200 years it was the emperor who said who was to make war were. Not Horus. He only did it for two years. Ergo It was the Emperor that made the IW go to the trench. And I see no reason what so ever that Horus should waste his time on telling Petrubo were he should make war "Hey dad ask you to take Betaloin III" when it surely would be more simple to send it via an astropath "By orders of the Emperor the 96 (or what number Petrubo expedition fleet had) expedtitions fleet is to make way towards Betaloin III and realive the "inserts other legion here" and take the eldar citidel there." Something along those lines. So tell my why in gods name would the Emperor have to ask Horus to say that to he's brother when they (at the time) had the same rank. Don't make any sense. So you can't blame Horus for Petrubos fall.

 

Petrubo was a very proud indivdual (said in the books that he was one of those that rage most that Horus was made Warmaster when he had fought as hard as any other) so he gets the toughest jobs by their father, then he has to split he's own legion for the stars in garrison units? :cuss? So when Horus comes with an with the offer and says things like "I know our father has treated you bad but I feal you pain and we can make him pay for it, we can make sure you get the cred that is yours by right. " and then he tells the tale how the Emperor will throw away he's sons in he's quest for godhood. And Petrubo that allready feals used are ready to belive this by he's whole heart. (And having to slaugther he's home planet and getting a deamon wepon from horus proberly made him a little easeir to get on Horus side.

 

Sorry for the bad spelling but hangovers will do that to you.

 

 

This is just the problem I pointed out in my previous post. The IW IA was written with the old timeline in mind. For that reason when the new timeline is taken many traitors semaed to turn becuase Emperor did something rather than Horus slowly manipulating them to his end.

 

Hrvat

[c-wrex]

Kieran: What's happening, bro? I'm afraid I must disagree as well. The primarchs, though molded in man's perfect physical and mental image, were not men. They were not born of woman, they came from test tubes. ... .............

 

The primarchs are test tube babies, with 'roids!

 

Ahem-anyway...they were created to be like men, but to be strong enough and mentally tough enough to lead them through the hard times and push back the darkness with their bare hands and backs. Since they are not humans (no, they are not, end of discussion), but were taught to be like humans, naturally they'd see things differently, what with radically different perceptions of what things like honor, duty, and betrayal really mean.

[randian]

The most obvious reason for Horus' failure to take Terra is his lack of control over his troops. Specifically:

 

1) The Word Bearers wasted time with their new toy, demon summoning

2) The Emperor's Children wasted time with debauchery and mass murder

 

If these two legions had instead spent 55 days in the single-minded application of force against the Imperial Palace I am certain the Palace falls with time to spare. At a minimum Jagatai Khan doesn't retake the spaceport and interrupt reinforcements.

[Sigmarius]

So, my $.02.

 

Anyone who ever deals with air based combat will tell you that aircraft are the most vulnerable when they are landing or taking off.

 

The biggest mistake Horus made was trying to CAPTURE the Imperial Palace, and Terra.

 

The SMARTEST thing he could have done is wipe away the Imperial fleet, which he either did completely, or at least came damn close to doing, and forgo the thought of landing troops at all.

 

Use all those Astartes on board for ship to ship boarding actions. Bring every spacecraft available and able to fit within firing range of the Imperial Palace.

 

Unload on the palace with everything they have.

 

Blast the palace from space, blast the space ports from space, and shoot down any craft that try to launch.

 

Instead of intelligent tactics, Horus let his ego get the best of him.

 

To quote:

"Horus was weak. Horus was a fool. He had the whole galaxy within his grasp and he let it slip away!" -Abbadon The Despoiler

 

Pax Imperium

[Mr.(Space)Marine]

The only problem with your idea Sigmarius, is that I;m pretty sure the Imperial Palace had shields etc so strong that they had to be bombarded with a ridiculous amount of weapons for a ridiculous amount fo time, so he deployed tons of stuff onto the surface so he could bring even more guns to bear on the palace walls. Most of the siege was just the bombardment of the Imperial Palace.

 

However I cannot back up my thoughts with any fluff I can remember so I could be wrong.