Ferrata Creates a Chapter

[Ferrata]

When I asked what people wanted from Liber, Commissar Molotov had this to say (amongst other things :nuke:)

 

The competition you ran, the destroyed Chapters one - it was interesting, though I didn't participate. I think the part I was most interested in was the 'moderator blog'. It didn't really pan out, though, which was a shame. I think that it's important to see the mods creating (or refining) DIY Chapters. Just like you want to see the painting mods painting, or the rules mods winning games. There can be a tendency among veteran Chapter creators to point back to the one DIY they may have created seven years ago and rest on their laurels. I, for one, am always interested to see the mods being creative, honing their craft, continuing to develop their skill and showing that overwhelming passion for Chapter creation. It's perhaps useful for the Liber-ites to see that their moderators are struggling through the same things that they have to endure. It also helps to bind the mods as firm part of a community, which can only be helpful for the board, I think.

 

So, once my plate had cleared up a little, I said I would create a new chapter. My plate has now been cleared. My exams are over, and I have around a few weeks before the whole thing begins again. I’ve managed to complete the Wings of Death IA which is currently off to a damn good proof reader sitting on his paper pile (which I’ve heard grows by the second). I’ve been painting, I’ve got the chapter creation project running and I’m going to randomly do articles for the DIY guide…okay my plate isn’t that clear but everything on the plate is non-vital. Keeping to my promise, I’m going to create a new chapter.

 

Inspiration

 

Obviously, a new idea doesn’t just spark out of nowhere, you can’t just say I’m going to create a chapter and get a cool idea, so I have been thinking about this one for a while. Sometime, whilst revising, such a cool idea jumped into my head, the sparks of imagination had been inserted by the strangest of all places.

 

The first was the brilliant TV series ‘House’, which I am sure you have all heard of. In one of these episodes, a patient suffers from CIPA a rare disease which prevents the person feeling pain or temperature. I thought to myself, how cool would that be? Marines are pretty damn tough, but unable to feel pain would make them even more awesome.

 

The second was scarily in one of my lectures, were my lecturer was talking about bone structure. Obviously Osteogenesis imperfecta was discussed, but also it’s opposite. These people have bones with higher density than normal and as such find there bones almost unbreakable. Again, marines already have pretty damn good bone structure, but this would make them cooler.

 

Finally, and the most unfortunately, came from the X-Men films and Wolverine. His level of regeneration in the films works quite well, if not a little overpowered compared to its initial ability, but that is beside the point. Marines with the ability to regenerate any wound again are just awesome.

 

Curses

 

I knew were this train of thought was going, the Cursed Founding. One of the main problems I have always found with people creating Cursed Founding chapters is that they make them too strong and without really flaws. If these marines were superior to the normal variation, the Imperium would just create this new type. So I needed a flaw in my chapter which would make them undesirable to the Imperium.

 

Again, my lectures gave me a source of inspiration. In learning about scar tissue formation, I was told about Keloids, which are additional scar formation which grows outside the vicinity of the wound. This along with the long and constant talk of tumours in my lectures inspired me to my chapter’s flaw. Their genetics make them susceptible to tumour formation as their regeneration systems go into over drive.

 

Now for the fudge. This is science fiction/space fantasy we are talking about, so not everything needs to be 100% scientifically correct. Instead of having my marines randomly die as a wound healing goes into overdrive, I decided to fudge the basics. This would only occur in recruits, and once the final stages of initiation had been completed, for some reason they are safe. I’m putting this down to the massive internal healing which would go along with organ implantation.

 

How is this a curse? Well, a normal chapter needs to have a successful initiation for every two gene-seeds used to sustain themselves. As each marine has two gene-seeds, it makes sense that only one needs to create a marine for him to replace when he dies. My chapter will have a ratio of over ten gene-seeds to one successful recruit; the others just die from tumours. This means the chapter is dying, and will always be dying. For every new recruit, it will take the gene-seeds of five marines. The chapter will be full of old veterans, but so few new recruits.

 

A little side curse is due to their denser bones is they are much slower than other marines, even compared to Salamanders. This isn’t a major flaw in their gene-seed as things go, personally I would prefer to be able to regenerate over being a little quicker.

 

One possible flaw would be it also induces chemicals which dampen the brain of the marines, making them dumb. I’m not sure on this as it seems to playing into the stereotype of the big dumb brute/Ogryns in Power Armour. This will probably be dropped and the marines are of normal intelligence.

 

Conclusion

 

That is ‘all’ I have on this chapter. I don’t have a name, a colour scheme, an idea how they fight or where they come from. Nothing else bar their pros and cons. Hopefully I will be able to come up with these ideas in the near future and get writing this IA, which I am quite excited about really (it has been a while since I came up with a new idea which I followed through, not since the Black Guard or the Disciples of Man). Thank you for your time.

 

Ferrata

[kil78]

how about instead of the recruit thing, they constantly have to maim and poison themselves to give their healing factor something to do so that it doesn't go bezerk and kill them.

 

other then that it seems neat , but not yet alot there to judge yet.

[Maeklos]

A possible theme is the idea of scarification, where non-lethal tumors or growths have to be cut from a Marine's body...by himself. Since the Astartes doesn't feel pain, he can't be a good judge of just how damaging this kind of self-surgery is, and he'll either succeed (and his enhanced metabolism will regenerate the damage soon enough) or he'll cause too much damage in too critical an area or in too short of a timespan and his body won't cope and will shut down...killing him.

 

This could be where your deficiency in scouts comes from - this practice was long established, so that the abnormal regeneration a recruit suffers due to implantation would have to be excised by the recruit himself. However, in earlier days, the excision was not as severe as the growths weren't as bad. But the geneseed is slowly degenerating, so that each successive generation has better regenerative abilities than the one before, but at an increased rate of scarification. And with Marines being the creatures of tradition and habit that they are, they would not change their traditions, despite the fact that only one in five or one in ten recruits actually survives to become a full battle-brother, even if one in two used to survive "back in the day". If anything, they would just chalk it up to a case of "the current generations are less than those that came before", or Golden Age syndrome.

 

Just my two thoughts on the matter.

[Ferrata]

Thanks for your thoughts.

 

kil78, whilst the idea of having a marine ritual scar himself in order to keep alive is interesting, it has hardly an even drawback for their advantages. Like I said in my first post, this is one of the greatest mistakes Cursed DIY chapters make, they are simply uber marines without a really drawback which would stop the Imperium making them the norm. Having a marine pump himself full of poison hardly makes up for regeneration and being tougher.

 

Maeklos, I doubt it would be possible for most tumours to be removed by the marine himself. Most tumours are internal and pressumably outside of the reach/flexability of your arms (I don't think anyone has actually tried), especially without the aid of numerous cameras etc. How would a marine remove tumour from his colon for example, he might be able to get his hands their but the lack of flexability would mean almost certain death, depending on the level of regeneration. One of the main reasons I choose the fudge over something that makes slightly more sense is the idea the chapter being dead is a very powerful theme. A chapter with no hope of survival, just elongating their last breathe. I'm still open to ideas though.

[kil78]

see that is the problem though. if you play this chapter it will always be on its last breath, it is kinda like taking "we stand alone" and not owning anything but space marines. <_<

 

 

it all depends on how you write them up, like I said there is not alot here yet to go with

 

 

side note, if you can over look my bad writing, could you check out my dusk riders post? as the author of the diy faq i respect your oppinion

[the-betrayer]

Thinking in terms of background, and the idea that the marines damage themselves so there “healing factor” doesn’t go mental. Maybe have the chapter go into the worst, most brutal, toxic, deadly etc war-zones they can. It could work like, to the outside observer the chapter is sacrificing it self in the name of the Imperium, but in fact its to hide the shame that their own body’s are killing them.

 

Just an idea

[kil78]

just one more quick aside,

 

I have a very mild form of this disease. one thing most people do not realise is that pain is how your body learns, because I didn't feel as much pain when I was younger , I tend to be clumsier then most people. Not bull in a china shop mind, but I had to learn to be careful.

 

also alot of the people who have the severe version of this tend not to make it out of childhood as it is possible to break your leg and not realise it, and have it go septic. that is just one example by the way.

[Octavulg]

How is this a curse? Well, a normal chapter needs to have a successful initiation for every two gene-seeds used to sustain themselves. As each marine has two gene-seeds, it makes sense that only one needs to create a marine for him to replace when he dies. My chapter will have a ratio of over ten gene-seeds to one successful recruit; the others just die from tumours. This means the chapter is dying, and will always be dying. For every new recruit, it will take the gene-seeds of five marines. The chapter will be full of old veterans, but so few new recruits.

 

Then they'd never make it. If you think about it, they'd slowly dwindle to nothing - if they ever got off the ground, which I would doubt (the normal amount of geneseed the Mechanicus would produce would have been greatly insufficient, and they'd probably have ended up with only 200 marines to START with - more of the recruits would fail, after all).

 

Then they'd proceed to get smaller from there. Since there's no way for them EVER to get bigger...well, they might make it to the end of the millenium, but I'd doubt it. The next generation of marines will be 40. Next one after that is 8.

 

At about 400 years per marine, you're looking at the end of the millenium? Maybe?

 

Even if they start with the full 1000, you're looking at 200 in the next generation, so at most you make it two millenia instead of one. And that's a MAXIMUM.

 

I like the concept, I just think a curse which still allows them to actually exist would work better. :)

 

There are two obvious fixes. One is that this is a recent development, like a previous poster said. The other is another form of the curse - one obvious one might be that the tumours grow so badly and so large that the marines don't fit in their suits, and excision usually kills them. :P Painful, degrading and horrifying to those who see it - everyone's all lumpy and scarred.

 

That is ‘all’ I have on this chapter. I don’t have a name,

 

Marines Malignant?

 

I'm a bad, bad man. ;)

 

Seriously, that sounds rather good to me.

 

a colour scheme,

 

Light blue and brown. Someone really ought to do that one. I would, but I should finish the Ice Lords first.

 

an idea how they fight

 

Like the Death Guard. You had to ask?

 

They're, if anything, even tougher. Methinks strategies might be similar.

 

Might be lots of revealing their hideous visages for shock value.

 

or where they come from.

 

The Imperium of Man. ;)

 

Iron Hands geneseed feels a little right, somehow. But the Ultramarines are always good.

[GhostLegion]

My chapter will have a ratio of over ten gene-seeds to one successful recruit; the others just die from tumours. This means the chapter is dying, and will always be dying. For every new recruit, it will take the gene-seeds of five marines. The chapter will be full of old veterans, but so few new recruits.

 

You know...at first I wasn't sure I had any idea of how to make this a functional curse, then I went back to IA one and the article on the Rites of Initiation. Its discussion of the process and different organs implanted is a big help thinking of flaws...especially when you work to determine how the organs interact. With your idea, I thought either there was something slightly wrong in the ongoing training (hypnotherepy) or the problem came with the implantation of the progenoids...personally I would lean more toward the progenoids.

 

Basically, implanting the progenoids isn't the true problem, only the instigator of a systematic failure leading to the corruption of the implants...thus leading to the survival of so few. The idea being that sometimes the progenoids take and the recruit is set to become a marine, or the generated tumors kill him. The only idea as to which organs are most effected by the tumors I could come up with were the secondary heart, the lungs or the omophagea...all of which I could see leading to failure of the organs and death.

 

I do think 10 geneseed to one marine is impossibly high, maybe rethink this along the lines Octavulg suggested...or maybe instead of 10 geneseed to one marine, make it one in 10 recruits survives the implantation of the organs.

[Sanguinius Chosen Wing]

I just dont like the idea of tumours, maybe they have a contagious disease or something? in any case it does seem a little to Nurglesque.

[Keyoz Devastrius]

Lets see- stronger bone structure/regeneration making them harder to kill and being created in the Cursed founding...Is it me or are you creating Sons of Antaeus?

[Nash Trickster]

If you think about it, they'd slowly dwindle to nothing - if they ever got off the ground, which I would doubt (the normal amount of geneseed the Mechanicus would produce would have been greatly insufficient, and they'd probably have ended up with only 200 marines to START with - more of the recruits would fail, after all).

[...]

Even if they start with the full 1000, you're looking at 200 in the next generation, so at most you make it two millenia instead of one. And that's a MAXIMUM.

That was my first reaction on reading the part on the Curse, one viable recruit for 5 fallen marines will never be able to support the chapter long enough for it to reach the present 40k time if it was created during the 21st founding...

 

Slightly increasing the amount of progenoids needed to have a viable recruit (3-4 progenoids=>1 success) would be more than enough, and more realistic. Don't forget that even "non-cursed" chapters can find themselves with their future threatened if they loose too many marines in a short period of time, so this chapter wouldn't be able to recover from such an ordeal...

 

For these same reasons, the chapter would have to be more "cautious" than others (even with their enhanced healing ability) for the loss of even half of what another chapter could "afford" would be unacceptable to them, endangering the chpater's survival. So the Death Guard-like combat doctrine proposed by Octavulg would be out of the question IMO. Since they'd end up with less marines and more valuable ones, I'd rather see them take the motorised-infantry route, compensating their slower reflexes with the use of rapid deployment via drop-pods and/or Rhinos... They would after all be much safer while in the thick of the fights than when slowly making their way towards the enemy lines...

 

Now, I can see another aspect of your idea which you should clearly explore: even your veterans should have quite a number of visible (yet non-deadly) tumours and, since the marines know their physical appearance without their armour makes them look like mutants, none of them is ever seen helmetless by anyone outside the chapter...

[Ferrata]

At about 400 years per marine, you're looking at the end of the millenium? Maybe?

There is where your calculations go wrong. The average life of a marine is 400 years, but that is the average life of a marine who cannot regenerate nor take a stupid amount of damage to begin with. These marines will just keep on going. Unlike normal marines who age, these guys don't (as ageing is just cell damage) so they won't slow down which in itself will extend their lives. I'm not sure how much damage these guys can take before the die, but if you remove a limb/organ, they can't grow it back. So you looking at removing the heart, lungs or brain (fully) from the marine. Really old marines leads to its own problem though, which is Dante is mentioned as being the oldest marine alive (maybe ever) at 1100 years old I believe. This either means all my marines have to die before they reach this age (shortening the life span of the chapter), or have them record themselves as dead at a certain age. This would be due to them saying "My chapter is dead, therefore so am I". I'm also quite happy having this chapter down to a few hundred marines, on their last legs. Also, they would have a full 1000 marines at the start because if the flaw was apparent straight away they would not have made it to creation. If you look at the Flame Falcons at least, their 'curse' appeared some years into their life.

 

You know...at first I wasn't sure I had any idea of how to make this a functional curse, then I went back to IA one and the article on the Rites of Initiation. Its discussion of the process and different organs implanted is a big help thinking of flaws...especially when you work to determine how the organs interact. With your idea, I thought either there was something slightly wrong in the ongoing training (hypnotherepy) or the problem came with the implantation of the progenoids...personally I would lean more toward the progenoids.

That just gave me an idea (which I thank you). All recruits are during their puberity when the organs are implanted, which means their bodies are full of growth hormones. What could be worse for a person who has regeneration then more growth hormones, as bone formation along with many of the other tissue formations in the body, depend on an initial stage of destruction followed by creation. Growth hormones, a fair amount of damage internally, this is going to lead to some fatal screw ups on the regeneration path. Maybe this could be linked to the idea of poisoning/drugging the recruits so their immune/regeneration response is busy and the recruits are able to survive.

 

Is it me or are you creating Sons of Antaeus?

Just you :P I didn't think the Sons could regenerate. Anyway, doesn't really matter as chapters are allowed to be similar and what is it to say that the experiments they tried on the Sons are not similar to those tried on mine.

 

I know it may seem like I am coming up with excuses/reasons to keep my original ideas, but I am listening to you all and you are making me think about my chapter, which is the important stage of creating a chapter. As I am having to defend my choices, I make them more realisitic and fitting. This is true for most things said in chapter feedback, most things can be worked into the background but they just need some tweaking and doing about it the right way.

 

++ Edit ++

 

Okay, no posting when I am, it makes me have to edit my posts and mods no longer have ninja edits :) Nash, I think the main concern of your post is answered above, but I will think about reducing the number of failures to successes. I do agree that they would need to take more caution with their combat style, but I haven't really thought about it. Ugly marines...now that could work quite well...

 

[Ferrata is thinking...if horrible things begin to happen he does appoligise]

[Keyoz Devastrius]

I didn't think the Sons could regenerate.

 

I think your right - now that i think about it ,they are more of "feel no pain" and "heavy bones" than "regeneration" type.

 

Really old marines leads to its own problem though, which is Dante is mentioned as being the oldest marine alive (maybe ever) at 1100 years old I believe. This either means all my marines have to die before they reach this age (shortening the life span of the chapter), or have them record themselves as dead at a certain age.

 

I know its might be a 180 degrees change of your original idea but maybe instead of heavier bones (which I'm pretty sure is the Sons of Antaeus thing) you could make your Marines have faster metabolism. This could make them not only heal faster but they would also get old faster. The Chapter would be always understrength because of the shorter service time of marines, initiates would have to learn faster and battle brothers be promoted to the veteran company in younger age then in other chapters. Maybe when the veteran would feel that he is becoming weaker and slower or apothecaries would determinate he's metabolism is slowing down and his regenerative powers are weakening , he would try to die on the battlefield in a glorious heroic ( and suicidal) last stand.

[Ferrata]

I don't think the reason behind the Sons sheer toughness has ever been mentioned bar hinting towards Death Guard gene-seed. The rest of your suggestions makes sense, but I really like the idea of a dead chapter full of old veterans over a constantly young chapter. This links well into the main premise of the chapter of being really tough, which is something new to me in a chapter. The Imperial Castellans relied on faith, the Black Guard on stealth, the Wings of Death on agility/speed/themselves, so having this chapter rely of sheer strength and toughness is appealing to me. Also having them age faster doesn't work with the regeneration as these would counteract one another.

 

From the Wings of Death IA "With the Angelicus crusade on its knees, at the mercy of its once heroic figure heads, the Imperium has dedicated two chapters to the protection and the furthering of the Angelicus Crusade." This sparked a run of imagination in my head, a conflict between a marine from this chapter and a marine from the Wings of Death, both being polar opposites it of one another. The Wings of Death being agile, fast, prideful, quick-thinking, etc depending the precision of the hit over the strength. This chapter being slow but powerful, modest etc depending on the strength of the punch over where it hits. It has story written all over it. This would make the chapter active in the Angelicus Crusade (Take II) which gives them a setting. The Crusade is currently udner the watchful eye of an Inquisitor after the Wings went and screwed things over, so that would explain a Cursed chapter there being under the watch of the Inquisition.

[Maeklos]

Just had an idea for the geneseed for this Chapter. We know that Corax incorporated outlawed cloning techiques in order to bring the Raven Guard up to full strength after the Drop Site Massacre. These produced ferocious yet bestial mutants, most of whom weren't even human anymore.

 

It's possible that this Chapter could be descended from one of the altered-but-stable sets of geneseed that would have been a result from those immediately post-Heresy days, so that, at the time and subsequent Foundings, the geneseed had remained more-or-less stable, but as time has gone on, the mutations in the geneseed have become more and more pronounced, leading to the fantastic regenerative and physiological deviations.

[Octavulg]

There is where your calculations go wrong. The average life of a marine is 400 years,

 

How about Cassius? The 'ancient' Ultramarines Chaplain of 400 years?

 

Fluff is contradictory on the point. To say your marines lived longer in general would seem...risky.

 

And either way, they're still only going to produce two progenoids each, so you'll have the exact same problem, just on a longer time-scale.

 

but that is the average life of a marine who cannot regenerate nor take a stupid amount of damage to begin with.

 

As time goes by, the greater the chance of cell replication producing something...bad. This is, for example, why the chances of cancer increase as you age (at least, that's my understanding).

 

These marines will just keep on going. Unlike normal marines who age, these guys don't (as ageing is just cell damage)

 

Nope. Aging is also the cessation of cell division. When cells never stop dividing, you get things like cancer (and immortality. It's a mixed bag).

 

So you looking at removing the heart, lungs or brain (fully) from the marine.

 

Sounds kinda like normal marines. ;)

 

This either means all my marines have to die before they reach this age (shortening the life span of the chapter), or have them record themselves as dead at a certain age.

 

The raging tumours of my idea would work well here. The excision operations would grow more and more frequent as the marines aged, and eventually they simply wouldn't survive. They all have the potential to live as long as Dante, but the horrible tumours get 'em first.

 

I'm also quite happy having this chapter down to a few hundred marines, on their last legs.

 

The problem is that they start out on their last legs.

 

Also, they would have a full 1000 marines at the start because if the flaw was apparent straight away they would not have made it to creation.

 

Yup. But if the flaw manifests in the way you suggest, it would have manifested then. Hence why I prefer the raging tumours idea. ;)

 

If you look at the Flame Falcons at least, their 'curse' appeared some years into their life.

 

Yes. But, while resorting to logic may be a little futile in the 41st millenium, why the hell would a defect which hampers the number of recruits not be present at the founding of the chapter, at least if it is such a core part of the geneseed.

 

Hence why I think you'd be better off having the tumours and dealing with them be the flaw.

 

Maybe this could be linked to the idea of poisoning/drugging the recruits so their immune/regeneration response is busy and the recruits are able to survive.

 

While this is a very good idea, I still feel that any damage to the recruitment process will have such huge effects as to make the chapter defunct by the 41st millenium.

 

I mean, if you want to write about that, fine, but at least come out and say so. ;)

 

I know it may seem like I am coming up with excuses/reasons to keep my original ideas,

 

Indeed, I will, once more, reiterate just how huge the consequences of such damage to the recruitment process would be. The chapter would cease to exist within a few "generations".

 

To me, that leaves you with two options - change the defect to something similar but which doesn't affect recruitment, or have the chapter be defunct at time of writing.

[kil78]

octavlug, "ancient" for the ultras is a title, not nessecarily meaning that they are that old.

[Commissar Molotov]

octavlug, "ancient" for the ultras is a title, not nessecarily meaning that they are that old.

 

You're right - it is a title. But it's a title for the Marine that bears the Chapter Standard. Why would Chaplain Cassius be named 'Ancient'? :D

 

Octavulg is correct, in that the latest Codex suggests Cassius is the oldest (non dreadnought) Marine in the Chapter, at the age of approximately 400. Of course, it conflicts with other issues, but it's perhaps the most recent reference we have.

[Ferrata]

And either way, they're still only going to produce two progenoids each, so you'll have the exact same problem, just on a longer time-scale

Which is not a problem, this chapter is dying. It will be dead shortly and there is nothing it can do about it bar survive as long as possible and take as many enemies of the Emperor with them.

 

Nope. Aging is also the cessation of cell division. When cells never stop dividing, you get things like cancer (and immortality. It's a mixed bag).

Well, cell division stops because at the end of each strand of DNA is a large section of repeated bases. As DNA replication is not 100%, each replication is slightly shorter than the previous. Some cells have enzymes know as Telomerases which fix this problem (telomeres are the lengths). Once all the telomere has been used up, coding DNA will be left out and a cell will die. There are also so many other reasons why a cell would die, but we won't go into that. Cancer cells have telomerases and suffer from uncontrolable cell division, so not when they stop dividing.

 

Sounds kinda like normal marines.

Not really, a normal marine would die if their lung go punctured, or their heart damaged or one of the main arteries getting cut.

 

Yes. But, while resorting to logic may be a little futile in the 41st millenium, why the hell would a defect which hampers the number of recruits not be present at the founding of the chapter, at least if it is such a core part of the geneseed.

Because one this mutation could activate later on in the chapters life, two the 1000 gene-seeds come from test slaves, so they might have created 2000 marines but half of them died, but the chapter was sent out at full strength.

 

Indeed, I will, once more, reiterate just how huge the consequences of such damage to the recruitment process would be. The chapter would cease to exist within a few "generations".

True, maybe ten was too high, maybe five would make more sense. But if a generation is easily a thousand years, then they've only got to survive six generations to get upto the current date.

[flintlocklaser]

I really like the overall idea, you just need to iron out some of the game-mechanical and fluff-mechanical stuff.

 

Sounds kinda like normal marines.

Not really, a normal marine would die if their lung go punctured, or their heart damaged or one of the main arteries getting cut.

Actually, the marines have a third lung which allows them to go for some undetermined amount of time not using their two 'main' lungs; a secondary heart that is explicitly stated to allow for a marine to survive the total destruction of their primary heart, and another organ (the Larraman's Organ) that provides them with a superhuman amount of blood clotting and scar generation. All these are per the IA article on the process of creating a new Space Marine, which I think is also covered in the 4th ed C:SM (mine is gone so I can't verify that). So I see where you are coming from, but these are all injuries that a 'normal' marine should also be able to survive. Maybe what makes your guys different is that they would not just survive such an injury, but that their healing process is so out of control that it would not even slow them down in a fight? I get the idea that a 'normal' marine would survive such injuries, but be taken out of the fight (casualties in tabletop game terms, although they would later recover).

 

 

Indeed, I will, once more, reiterate just how huge the consequences of such damage to the recruitment process would be. The chapter would cease to exist within a few "generations".

True, maybe ten was too high, maybe five would make more sense. But if a generation is easily a thousand years, then they've only got to survive six generations to get upto the current date.

 

In a peaceful environment, a SM 'generation' may well be a thousand years. But with combat losses it seems like it should be a much lower number. While it would vary from chapter to chapter, don't most SM chapters induct a new cadre of recruits roughly every decade? Your guys could easily be doing this much, much less often, plus you will have worse results as per your background idea. I guess the problem is that if we talk about SM 'generations' we're talking about a small sample set that is going to be very 'spiky', and then we take a really rough average between Battle Brother Meatshield who dies 4 years after becoming a marine and Battle Brother Lucky, who is a ripe old 400+ years old, even though both were created in the same cadre. Having said that and not being sure if it makes much sense, I do agree that 5 to 1 is a much more 'doable' ratio that 10 to one, and you still might want to make it lower. Another thing to think about is the uncertainty about how many times a marine's progenoids can be harvested. It seems to me that there must be some amount of 'live' donation that occurs for a Chapter to build up it's stocks of gene-seed; otherwise, if each marine can only produce 2 progenoids, and if it takes 2 progenoids to make a new marine, then every time a marine dies in the field and an apothecary can't get to his body in time (or his body is eaten/incinerated/taken into the warp for a plaything) then that chapter's maximum size drops by one. By this math, EVERY chapter is a dying chapter. Maybe that could be another flaw in your chapter - unlike chapters that can harvest a progenoid from a living brother and then let it regenerate, perhaps yours can indeed only be taken from a dead brother? This would make each loss without a nearby apothecary another nail in the coffin. This would theoretically make for a slower rate of decrease than the '5/10 guys = 1 recruit' method. Just something to consider.

 

Hope this is some help, it's definitely an interesting chapter and I want to see where you take it next!

[Octavulg]

Cancer cells have telomerases and suffer from uncontrolable cell division, so not when they stop dividing.

 

My understanding is that cancer cells have unlimited telomeres because of mutation. Said mutation results from degradation after repeated division.

 

Not really, a normal marine would die if their lung go punctured, or their heart damaged or one of the main arteries getting cut.

 

flintlocklaser's comments have argued this at least as well as I could. :wallbash:

 

Because one this mutation could activate later on in the chapters life,

 

Why? You do need a reason/cause.

 

two the 1000 gene-seeds come from test slaves, so they might have created 2000 marines but half of them died, but the chapter was sent out at full strength.

 

So what you're saying is that the chapter was created, even though the creators KNEW it was non-viable?

 

I'd love some justification for that. :)

 

Either the flaw would be obvious from creation, or it wouldn't. If it's obvious from creation, I doubt the chapter would ever have gotten off the ground.

 

True, maybe ten was too high, maybe five would make more sense. But if a generation is easily a thousand years, then they've only got to survive six generations to get upto the current date.

 

I don't think a generation IS easily a thousand years. Repeated cell division results in degradation which results in mutation which results in failure which results in death. Doing this faster gets you those results faster, no? Thus marines would still die from old age, or from tumours, or from the excision of tumours. Methinks 400 years of overcharged metabolism combined with the already unstable marine physiology would seem enough to result in death for the vast majority. Hell, marines die in that time, and they're certainly tough enough.

 

Your marines advantages of regeneration and their metabolisms would probably be balanced out by the strains placed on them mentally and physically by those metabolisms, to say nothing of the fact that they're stretched very thin as a chapter.

[kil78]

how about the healing factor just randomly goes nuts? At a similar level to how many would die in battle or a bit more.

 

that way they are still super tough, but still are losing men.

 

the only gene-seed from dead marines thing sounds cool,

 

pehapes the presence of peroganoids lessens the chance of spondanious, ,,, um , rampant tumor explodiey-ness

[Ferrata]

I really like the overall idea, you just need to iron out some of the game-mechanical and fluff-mechanical stuff.

Thanks and meh, I don't care about the game-mechanics, this chapter is never going to be painted up.

 

Maybe what makes your guys different is that they would not just survive such an injury, but that their healing process is so out of control that it would not even slow them down in a fight? I get the idea that a 'normal' marine would survive such injuries, but be taken out of the fight (casualties in tabletop game terms, although they would later recover).

Okay, fair enough. A normal marine would be taken down and need help to recover, these marines won't even blink. I am really trying to avoid the situation though were you need to lop of their heads to kill them...

 

The second half of your post did give me an idea. One of the two glands can be removed without killing the marine, the one in the throat. The one in the chest can only be removed on the death of the marine. What if the increased toughness of the marines bones makes it almost impossible to retrieve this gene-seed without destroying the gene-seed. This would mean the chapter only had a one:one ration, and with the normal amount of failures and unuseable gene-seed, would mean they are slowly dying. Not at the previous rate, but still dying. I might increase this to a wee bit of higher failure rate, making them die faster, but I will not put a number to it. I really want to keep the "we are dead" theme in the chapter, because I really like it.

 

My understanding is that cancer cells have unlimited telomeres because of mutation. Said mutation results from degradation after repeated division.

Mutations may appear at any time of a cell life, although the DNA repair mechanisms begin to die in old age. A mutation can occur from external sources at any time as well. They don't have unlimited telomeres, they just have telomerases which repair the telomeres. Anyway, this is all too much science for the board when it really doesn't matter.

 

I never said that I was choosing either at this moment in time, either the mutation appeared later on or the mutation was with them all the time. Mutations could appear like they appear in the X-Men, usually during puberty at a moment of hightened emotions, say anger or love. If I go with the above flaw, then it wouldn't appeared on the AM scanning because they never remove the gene-seed from marines, just slaves.

[flintlocklaser]

I really like the overall idea, you just need to iron out some of the game-mechanical and fluff-mechanical stuff.

Thanks and meh, I don't care about the game-mechanics, this chapter is never going to be painted up.

To be fair, even when I said game mechanics there, I think I really meant the numbers game of how many marines, comparing their combat losses to the various replacement rates we'd been discussing. Sorry for the sloppy use of terms.

 

Maybe what makes your guys different is that they would not just survive such an injury, but that their healing process is so out of control that it would not even slow them down in a fight? I get the idea that a 'normal' marine would survive such injuries, but be taken out of the fight (casualties in tabletop game terms, although they would later recover).

Okay, fair enough. A normal marine would be taken down and need help to recover, these marines won't even blink. I am really trying to avoid the situation though were you need to lop of their heads to kill them...

Yeah, I agree that you don't want to make them like zombie marines that need to be shot in the head (twice probably). But I think especially in a fluff perspective, you could have your Chapter be noticably harder to put down than a normal marine, without being ridiculously tougher - ie, not enough tougher to get FNP, or improved Toughness, or anything like that. The 6 point spread 40k gives us to work with can be restrictive - imaging your guys having a 4.4999 Toughness to a normal marine's 4.0 - not enough to round up into Plague Marine land, but still damn hard to kill!

 

The second half of your post did give me an idea. One of the two glands can be removed without killing the marine, the one in the throat. The one in the chest can only be removed on the death of the marine. What if the increased toughness of the marines bones makes it almost impossible to retrieve this gene-seed without destroying the gene-seed. This would mean the chapter only had a one:one ration, and with the normal amount of failures and unuseable gene-seed, would mean they are slowly dying. Not at the previous rate, but still dying. I might increase this to a wee bit of higher failure rate, making them die faster, but I will not put a number to it. I really want to keep the "we are dead" theme in the chapter, because I really like it.

 

That sounds great! I didn't know the precise mechanics on the progenoid thing, the part about the one being harvestable anytime and the other one only at death seems to fit here perfectly! And I totally support your 'we are dead' concept, for two reasons. One, it's your DIY, do what you want. Two, it is an awesome theme, and I really like it too. It's a nice ring on the overall 40k theme of progressive decay and loss, something that I think gets overlooked a lot in the newer fluff. And if you do put a higher than normal failure rate into your implantation process, plus normal combat losses of progenoids from unrecoverable corpses, you will most definitely still have a dying chapter. It's looking really interesting, looking forward to more.