Gideon Bane Posted May 7, 2008 Share Posted May 7, 2008 Is there some reason other than fluff (which is flimsy anyway as the more recent renegades would have them) why CSM can't take Plasma Cannons as heavy weapons? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/135753-lack-of-plasma-cannons/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
davidren2401 Posted May 7, 2008 Share Posted May 7, 2008 Other than fluff? No. But fluff is what stops Dark Eldar driving baneblades. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/135753-lack-of-plasma-cannons/#findComment-1564273 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deneris Posted May 7, 2008 Share Posted May 7, 2008 Other than fluff? No. But fluff is what stops Dark Eldar driving baneblades. Lord... that brings back bad memories of a Dark Eldar player who got his hands on the VDR rules. He created a monstrosity with gatling long-barrelled blast dark lances that had the armor of a Land Raider... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/135753-lack-of-plasma-cannons/#findComment-1564306 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cale Posted May 7, 2008 Share Posted May 7, 2008 Yes, Gideon, there are also the rules. =P Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/135753-lack-of-plasma-cannons/#findComment-1564310 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maeklos Posted May 7, 2008 Share Posted May 7, 2008 I don't know why Chaos can't take plasma cannons or multi-meltas. They were both in production (albeit in limited numbers) during the Heresy, and I'm sure that in 10,000 years the folks over at Chaos, Inc. would have learned how to make them. Plus, the crew-serviced variety is shown on the weapons page and they're talked about as if Chaos Marines could tote 'em around, instead of being only unchosen options for a Dreadnought that's going to use them to blow your own guys away. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/135753-lack-of-plasma-cannons/#findComment-1564530 Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheDarkApostle Posted May 7, 2008 Share Posted May 7, 2008 Well, Obliterators got both Multi-meltas and Plasmacannons now though ;) But well, I suppose it's more of a "To make Chaos different instead of just Spiky Marines". But then again Spiky Marines are pretty much what they are anyway these days :( TDA Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/135753-lack-of-plasma-cannons/#findComment-1564610 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dark Scipio Posted May 7, 2008 Share Posted May 7, 2008 I don't know why Chaos can't take plasma cannons or multi-meltas. They were both in production (albeit in limited numbers) during the Heresy, and I'm sure that in 10,000 years the folks over at Chaos, Inc. would have learned how to make them. Plus, the crew-serviced variety is shown on the weapons page and they're talked about as if Chaos Marines could tote 'em around, instead of being only unchosen options for a Dreadnought that's going to use them to blow your own guys away. The Forces of Chaos have neither the research nor the production abilities to develop and introduce new High-Tech (weapons). They could create the Defiler, but that is not very advenced Tech, more Warp/Deamon R&D put onto Basic-Tech. But you can be glad. Until the 5th comes out, having Autocannons is better than having Plasmacannons. :P But Chaos will soon be able to field much more I guess, they also got the Vindicator, to sell the kit. :) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/135753-lack-of-plasma-cannons/#findComment-1564677 Share on other sites More sharing options...
davidren2401 Posted May 7, 2008 Share Posted May 7, 2008 But Chaos will soon be able to field much more I guess, they also got the Vindicator, to sell the kit. ;) Woah, cynical much? Call me a fanboy but I like to think the Vindi got put into the main list so that Iron Warriors players could say "At least we didnt loose EVERYTHING" Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/135753-lack-of-plasma-cannons/#findComment-1564750 Share on other sites More sharing options...
chillin Posted May 7, 2008 Share Posted May 7, 2008 The Forces of Chaos have neither the research nor the production abilities to develop and introduce new High-Tech (weapons). - Have to disagree w/ that, chaos developed the "planet killer" a weop that could destroy a planet, and has plasma cannons on dreads and plenty of lascannons, blastmasters etc. so surely lack of tech and production isn't the problem. I believe as others, that it's for game balance and to make chaos different then spikey s/m's (as DA said, not much different with this new dex though) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/135753-lack-of-plasma-cannons/#findComment-1564754 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gideon Bane Posted May 7, 2008 Author Share Posted May 7, 2008 My personal guess is that because Chaos has access to the Mark of Tzeentch they don't get Heavy Plasma since it reduces the total chance of a miss fire death from 15% to around 5% assuming I have correct math. Still I wanted to hear what others thought. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/135753-lack-of-plasma-cannons/#findComment-1564783 Share on other sites More sharing options...
x_beowolf_x1 Posted May 7, 2008 Share Posted May 7, 2008 The Forces of Chaos have neither the research nor the production abilities to develop and introduce new High-Tech (weapons). I also have to disagree with this... If they didnt have the research or production how do you think they are constantly sacking imperial planets? They got Planet killer.... Defiler.... Hell even Obliterators.... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/135753-lack-of-plasma-cannons/#findComment-1564842 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Imperialis_Dominatus Posted May 8, 2008 Share Posted May 8, 2008 My personal guess is that because Chaos has access to the Mark of Tzeentch they don't get Heavy Plasma since it reduces the total chance of a miss fire death from 15% to around 5% assuming I have correct math. Still I wanted to hear what others thought. Eh... no. You still get your 3+ armor save against all plasma weapons. The Invuln has no effect on that. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/135753-lack-of-plasma-cannons/#findComment-1564967 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gideon Bane Posted May 8, 2008 Author Share Posted May 8, 2008 Plasma Weapons have AP 2, they punch through even Terminator armor. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/135753-lack-of-plasma-cannons/#findComment-1565012 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cale Posted May 8, 2008 Share Posted May 8, 2008 The wounds they inflict on their firers when overheating are not AP:2, and anyone may take armour saves as normal against such wounds. A model blessed with the Invulnerable Save of Tzeentch is no better a wielder of plasma weaponry than anyone else. A model with the favour of Papa Nurgle, however, most certainly is. (since you can make Feel No Pain rolls against those wounds.) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/135753-lack-of-plasma-cannons/#findComment-1565015 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gideon Bane Posted May 8, 2008 Author Share Posted May 8, 2008 I see, I stand corrected Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/135753-lack-of-plasma-cannons/#findComment-1565035 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leethal Posted May 8, 2008 Share Posted May 8, 2008 The Forces of Chaos have neither the research nor the production abilities to develop and introduce new High-Tech (weapons). I also have to disagree with this... If they didnt have the research or production how do you think they are constantly sacking imperial planets? They got Planet killer.... Defiler.... Hell even Obliterators.... Every capital ship with guns = Planet killer, big whoop Defiler = Demon Tech, not high-tech, more like...antique-tech Obliterators = Mutated...thing. Chaos are constantly sacking Imperial planets because they go after the weak, defenseless places that gives them some junk to use. If Chaos EVER sacked a SM Homeworld and succeeded, then the Emperor is waking right then and now. And every Primarch comes back, all somehow bigger and better. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/135753-lack-of-plasma-cannons/#findComment-1565088 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redo Posted May 8, 2008 Share Posted May 8, 2008 The Forces of Chaos have neither the research nor the production abilities to develop and introduce new High-Tech (weapons). - Have to disagree w/ that, chaos developed the "planet killer" a weop that could destroy a planet, and has plasma cannons on dreads and plenty of lascannons, blastmasters etc. so surely lack of tech and production isn't the problem. I believe as others, that it's for game balance and to make chaos different then spikey s/m's (as DA said, not much different with this new dex though) Nah I think this is no entirely correct. The Planet Killer was built in the warp and Imperial sources believe that it would not be possible without warp spared magicks. The Blastmaster, Defilers and other Chaos weapons are mostly the same. They were developed from the raw stuff that is the warp. I think that the new Soulgrinder kinda also falls into this category. Though I also agree that it helps sepereate loyalists from Chaos. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/135753-lack-of-plasma-cannons/#findComment-1565102 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gideon Bane Posted May 8, 2008 Author Share Posted May 8, 2008 The Forces of Chaos have neither the research nor the production abilities to develop and introduce new High-Tech (weapons). I also have to disagree with this... If they didnt have the research or production how do you think they are constantly sacking imperial planets? They got Planet killer.... Defiler.... Hell even Obliterators.... Every capital ship with guns = Planet killer, big whoop Defiler = Demon Tech, not high-tech, more like...antique-tech Obliterators = Mutated...thing. Chaos are constantly sacking Imperial planets because they go after the weak, defenseless places that gives them some junk to use. If Chaos EVER sacked a SM Homeworld and succeeded, then the Emperor is waking right then and now. And every Primarch comes back, all somehow bigger and better. GW'd never do something that radical...if only they would. That'd boost their sales potentially Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/135753-lack-of-plasma-cannons/#findComment-1565103 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roultox Posted May 8, 2008 Share Posted May 8, 2008 I rather have 9 walking plasma cannons then 12 stationary plasma cannons any day. Peekaboo, I see you around that corner thar, BOOM. Dead marine squad, oops you cant see me, now you can when I peekaboo next turn, my turn that is. Seriously though, we get freakin' autocannons and they dont. I prefer lascannon's role over Multi-meltas, and the points difference is only really noticible in heavy support, in troops these weapons are cheaper and you wont notice it much so might as well get a lascannon for your troops then a multi-melta. (Or 2 plasma guns in fact). I rather have an autocannon rather a heavy bolter for the range, strength and the ability to say I can wound a wraithlord on a 5 instead of just a 6. (6 heavy bolter shots for a single 6, 3 ac shots to get a 5 or 6, heavy bolter has just 1 more shot, see the difference? 2HB vs 1.5 AC's) Plasma Cannon, bah, give me a battle cannon instead, oops loyalist marines dont have such weapons, do they? We get much cooler stuff... Period. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/135753-lack-of-plasma-cannons/#findComment-1565133 Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrainFireBob Posted May 8, 2008 Share Posted May 8, 2008 Plasma cannons are temperamental, finicky weaponry needing not just high tech to produce, but organized maintenance. You can slap enough extra crud on a dread that the dread doesn't have too many problems, but then it's too bulky to be man-portable. I can handle Chaos not having plasma cannons, with the idea that increasing plasma output has a non-linear increase in the difficulties of maintenance. Land Speeders, the same. The multi-melta's the only hard one. Unless melta cannisters have extremely low ammunition reserves, and the multimelta exacerbates the problem. But I've heard no fluff one way or the other. Remember, too, that Oblit weapons "mimic effects," that's not quite the same as being. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/135753-lack-of-plasma-cannons/#findComment-1565171 Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheDarkApostle Posted May 8, 2008 Share Posted May 8, 2008 Every capital ship with guns = Planet killer, big whoop That is incorrect mate. Capital ship have weapons that can kill all life on the planet. The Planet Killer has the power to completely rip a planet appart leaving nothing. Remember, too, that Oblit weapons "mimic effects," that's not quite the same as being. Hmm. Never heard that before. You might want to take a look at this. :) TDA Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/135753-lack-of-plasma-cannons/#findComment-1565216 Share on other sites More sharing options...
nosuchmethod Posted May 8, 2008 Share Posted May 8, 2008 Besides the fluff? Wow, I hope you're joking; as far as I'm concerned GW voided any and all claims to fluff when they released the current codex. The only fluff oriented chaos force that can be built from it without using counts-as or forgoing clutch units is Black Legion. That said, I'm pretty sure the different weapons are, as stated above, a poor attempt at differentiating loyal and chaos marines from eachother. IMHO it would have been better if they'd focused more on pre-heresy & warband military organization, but whatever. That and actually left some of the unit flexibility in so we could play something other than Black Legion. On a side note, the Planet Killer is most definitely an exclusive warp-spawn/dark mechanicus creation; like the helltalon and the defiler, it bears little resemblance to any imperial technology, pre-heresy or otherwise. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/135753-lack-of-plasma-cannons/#findComment-1565330 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maeklos Posted May 8, 2008 Share Posted May 8, 2008 Chaos are constantly sacking Imperial planets because they go after the weak, defenseless places that gives them some junk to use. If Chaos EVER sacked a SM Homeworld and succeeded, then the Emperor is waking right then and now. And every Primarch comes back, all somehow bigger and better. Must never have heard of any of the Black Crusades! Not only did Abaddon attack Cadia directly during the last one, Chaos forces are still in possession of Cadia itself, as well has having destroyed outright several of the planets in the Cadia system....the most heavily defended Imperial system in the galaxy outside of Holy Terra. It took dozens of full Chapters of Astarts, whole Titan Legions, and thousands of Imperial Guard regiments to hold back Abaddon, and even then it was not a victory for the Imperials, but a stalemate. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/135753-lack-of-plasma-cannons/#findComment-1565378 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dark Scipio Posted May 8, 2008 Share Posted May 8, 2008 The result of the 13th and most dangerous black crusade of all times was not as positive as you view: - The Space is under total imperial controll, and this is of course the most important thing. - Cadia has not fallen, and the Chaos forces are cut of (see above). a quote: During the worldwide campaign of Abaddon the Despoiler's Thirteenth Black Crusade, the forces of Chaos managed to establish a major foothold on Cadia, though they lost the battle in space. The result of this is that most of Cadia is now under control of Chaos forces, although they have no way of being reinforced, while the Imperium can bring reinforcements from anywhere in the Imperium. Because of this, Chaos forces are slowly losing ground with every passing day, as they lose forces and the Imperium gains more and more troops. Not a victory for the Imperium, the Black Crusade failed, all what they gained is slowly lost to the imperium again. Stalemates are almost always victories for the defenders. Even the Nazis gained more in Barbarossa and were not cut off, out of supply and without air (and Space) superiorty. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/135753-lack-of-plasma-cannons/#findComment-1565405 Share on other sites More sharing options...
chillin Posted May 8, 2008 Share Posted May 8, 2008 Chaos are constantly sacking Imperial planets because they go after the weak, defenseless places that gives them some junk to use. If Chaos EVER sacked a SM Homeworld and succeeded, then the Emperor is waking right then and now. And every Primarch comes back, all somehow bigger and better. Must never have heard of any of the Black Crusades! - I was thinking the same thing :P That's Imperal control over the media and information for ya. Courtesy of the minister of propaganda :lol: Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/135753-lack-of-plasma-cannons/#findComment-1565410 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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