legio daemonis Posted May 8, 2008 Share Posted May 8, 2008 I have just finished reading Galaxy in Flames and got hit with an idea. What if there were some loyal marines that had hid so deep down that the final bombarding didn't kill them? and what if Loken isn't dead. Could he, if he had survived, form a new chapter from other marines who had survived? Lol sorry but if my questions are answered in one of the later books just say the name of the book. -LD Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/135817-possible-survivors-of-istvaan-3/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dam13n Posted May 8, 2008 Share Posted May 8, 2008 they haven't been answered yet, although some of the escapees are covered in Flight of the Eisenstein which is a great book (I finished it in about 3 hours solid reading, I actually couldn't put it down) It is speculated but NOT confirmed that Tarvitz et al. may have managed to escape into the tunnels under the ruins on Istvaan III, though whether they survived at the end is not known. It is mentioned that they found a shuttle, but whether they actually escaped is also not yet known. As for Loken, there is a chance he's alive, but I wouldn't count on it. He is however one of the main protagonists in the first three books and although his "death" has been one of the most "emotional" parts of the books so far, I can well see his popularity forcing a "ressurection" of sorts, even as a character in a Descent of Angels spin-off style Heresy book. I myself would love to get a book that covered some of Horus' origins and included the members of the Mournival as young trainees maybe ending at the time of Horus' discovery of Alpharius. I admit this covers a lot of ground, but if it was done in a similar way to "Brothers of the Snake", with many short stories, I think it would work, of course in order for it to work, it would have to be written by Dan Abnett. Keep the speculation coming, the constant intrigue and unanswered questions are one of the reasons I've been collecting GW stuff for 17 years+ and why, even if the rules get worse (if they can) I will still buy the black library books, the codices and any other font of knowledge that GW deigns to provide us with (unless it was written by Gav Thorpe or C. S. Goto, obviously :) ) Laterz... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/135817-possible-survivors-of-istvaan-3/#findComment-1565224 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weiss Posted May 8, 2008 Share Posted May 8, 2008 A friend of mine asked Dan Abnett about this. He got a very ambiguous response out of him. Whether that was because he was sick of hearing the question or had something to hide, I don't know... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/135817-possible-survivors-of-istvaan-3/#findComment-1565257 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Inquisitor Kravin Posted May 8, 2008 Share Posted May 8, 2008 In the White Dwarf interview with Dan Abnett to mark the release of Legion they specifically mentioned the possible return of Loken in a way that strongly implied that it may happen. They certainly left it open in the books. I liked Saul Tarvitz but I think that the point of his last scene was that the Loyalists met their deaths with honour as astartes should, unlike the traitors. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/135817-possible-survivors-of-istvaan-3/#findComment-1565285 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sons of Horus Posted May 8, 2008 Share Posted May 8, 2008 Tarvits is confirmed dead because in Fulgrim, eidolon kills him. i'm pretty sure Loken is dead, even if he survived Isstvan 3 he wont survive the siege ;) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/135817-possible-survivors-of-istvaan-3/#findComment-1565308 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bigger-than-Jesus Posted May 8, 2008 Share Posted May 8, 2008 Tarvits is confirmed dead because in Fulgrim, eidolon kills him. i'm pretty sure Loken is dead, even if he survived Isstvan 3 he wont survive the siege :) Tarvitz wasn't killed by Eidolon, at least IIRC. Are you confusing Lucius killing Demeter perhaps? And I always got the Impression that Garvi survived Istvaan. Unconsious and buried in rubble perhaps, but alive(Previous statemet is not influenced by my opinion of Garvi eing my fave character from a book, along with Garro and Zso Sahaal lol). Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/135817-possible-survivors-of-istvaan-3/#findComment-1565552 Share on other sites More sharing options...
legio daemonis Posted May 8, 2008 Author Share Posted May 8, 2008 any ideas what happened to Rylanor(sp?) also? If I remember right that's the name of the EC dread. the last i saw of him in Galaxy In Flames was him watching everything die. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/135817-possible-survivors-of-istvaan-3/#findComment-1565715 Share on other sites More sharing options...
moranimal Posted May 8, 2008 Share Posted May 8, 2008 There were some threads that covered all of this in great detail, including speculation as to what happens. Suffice to say, it is possible that Tarvitz, Loken, and even possibly Torgaddon [sp?] may not be dead. Search through the archives, you'll find a lot of this in previous threads regarding Fulgrim and Flight of the Eisenstein. As for Rylanor [sp?], it was last heard of guarding some ancient Xenos hangar on Istvaan III - or so Lucius said that Tarvitz had told him in Fulgrim as he was speaking to Eidolon. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/135817-possible-survivors-of-istvaan-3/#findComment-1565735 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ju'kosian Posted May 8, 2008 Share Posted May 8, 2008 IN Fulgrim it's mentioned that Rylanor was send away by Saul Tarvitz to investigate a tunnel or bombshelter beneath the ruins. So it's quite possible that there are survivors.. Tarvitz, Nero vipus,Rylanor and maybe Loken Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/135817-possible-survivors-of-istvaan-3/#findComment-1565777 Share on other sites More sharing options...
atin Posted May 8, 2008 Share Posted May 8, 2008 I remember one short conversion between Eidolon and Lucius ( book: fulgrim ) about the loyalist on estvaan III. they talked about how was killed and how not, and about the EC dread (Rylanor) how was send to investigate an unknown hanger or something like that. so I think Dan Abnett left e clue there. So I wouldn’t be surprised that one of the leading chars of galaxy, rising, false gods is still alive and kicking. cheers atin Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/135817-possible-survivors-of-istvaan-3/#findComment-1565876 Share on other sites More sharing options...
lord arkon Posted May 14, 2008 Share Posted May 14, 2008 I reckon Loken lived, simply because Abnett is so unhelpful on the subject. Sorry guys but I do believe that Tarvitz and everyone is actually dead (sad i know) but the thing with Ancient Rylannor: he was indeed seen going off to investigate a hidden hangar full of shuttles of Praal's according to Lucius in 'Fulgrim', so i reckon he's still alive. Maybe he's one of the marines that supposedly went on to form the Grey Knights since Malacador the Sigilite's last mission for the emperor was to round off 1 marine from each traitor legion for the formation of a anti-daemonic fighting force. Think about this : Cruze or Loken (Luna Wolves/sons of Horus). Garro (deathguard), the loyal WE captain Ehren Gharek who was last seen alive on Angon's flagship, the other are unknown but Ancient Rylannor from the EC the IF could have picked him up from their recovery mission of Istvaan III ;) ;) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/135817-possible-survivors-of-istvaan-3/#findComment-1570154 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Tancred Posted May 14, 2008 Share Posted May 14, 2008 I reckon Loken lived, simply because Abnett is so unhelpful on the subject. Sorry guys but I do believe that Tarvitz and everyone is actually dead (sad i know) but the thing with Ancient Rylannor: he was indeed seen going off to investigate a hidden hangar full of shuttles of Praal's according to Lucius in 'Fulgrim', so i reckon he's still alive. Maybe he's one of the marines that supposedly went on to form the Grey Knights since Malacador the Sigilite's last mission for the emperor was to round off 1 marine from each traitor legion for the formation of a anti-daemonic fighting force. Think about this : Cruze or Loken (Luna Wolves/sons of Horus). Garro (deathguard), the loyal WE captain Ehren Gharek who was last seen alive on Angon's flagship, the other are unknown but Ancient Rylannor from the EC the IF could have picked him up from their recovery mission of Istvaan III :wub: B) Where does it say that they took a marine from all the traitors? It actually says he found 8 marines who were unquestionable loyal to the emperor and had psykic talents, and that Curze and Garro would be the first inquisitors(last chapter of flight of the eisenstein) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/135817-possible-survivors-of-istvaan-3/#findComment-1570291 Share on other sites More sharing options...
lord arkon Posted May 14, 2008 Share Posted May 14, 2008 Soz brother Tancred that what I was getting at, bad use of language, will be clearer in the future :( But I do distinctly remember in the HH artbooks in does state that 9 marines were brought to the Emperor, 1 from each traitor legion who had abandoned their legion and Primarch for the Emperor? though yes I did forget about the psychic talents bit Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/135817-possible-survivors-of-istvaan-3/#findComment-1570360 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Master Jeridian Posted May 15, 2008 Share Posted May 15, 2008 I prefer that their dead, because that's most plausible considering the damage and events, and also makes the Heresy and the destruction it caused very serious to the reader. If they survive through some elaborate and weak plot device to save the day at the end, then it's pandering to fans, rather than doing the Heresy justice. The Heresy was brutal, it caused a lot of death- a lot of good heroes included. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/135817-possible-survivors-of-istvaan-3/#findComment-1570839 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weiss Posted May 15, 2008 Share Posted May 15, 2008 True, but the vast majority of the loyalists were killed during the two or three months that the siege lasted, so it isn't as if it makes the massacre any better that a few characters survived... In my opinion at least. I'm also sick of loyalists getting their backsides handed to them on plates and being forced to eat it... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/135817-possible-survivors-of-istvaan-3/#findComment-1570875 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Eleysium Posted May 16, 2008 Share Posted May 16, 2008 I have just finished reading Galaxy in Flames and got hit with an idea. What if there were some loyal marines that had hid so deep down that the final bombarding didn't kill them? and what if Loken isn't dead. Could he, if he had survived, form a new chapter from other marines who had survived? Lol sorry but if my questions are answered in one of the later books just say the name of the book.-LD If you continue to read the series, then you will find some things that seem to hint towards this. I forgot exactly which book, but one of them does mention a secret hidden hangar/naval base that the loyalists discover before the virus bombing and bombardment of the planet. Supposably the hangar is deep enough to withstand any bombardment, and does have working ships with warp drives in them. So, it is completely and entirely possible that some of the marines that stayed loyal could have made it out. Personaly I am hoping for this to be true. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/135817-possible-survivors-of-istvaan-3/#findComment-1572039 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamafore Posted December 31, 2008 Share Posted December 31, 2008 It may be possible that there were shuttles that were warp capable, but wouldn't they need navigators to guide them in the warp? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/135817-possible-survivors-of-istvaan-3/#findComment-1825529 Share on other sites More sharing options...
gorgeo5 Posted December 31, 2008 Share Posted December 31, 2008 what about the Emperors children dreadnought didnt he survie as he went down to the lower levels of the city? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/135817-possible-survivors-of-istvaan-3/#findComment-1825596 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iron-Daemon Forge Posted December 31, 2008 Share Posted December 31, 2008 It is speculated but NOT confirmed that Tarvitz et al. may have managed to escape into the tunnelsunder the ruins on Istvaan III Yes there was also some question in the Fulgrim book when Lucius (sp?) wounder what happen as he look that the remain of the planet. IP Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/135817-possible-survivors-of-istvaan-3/#findComment-1825609 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grand Master Tyrak Posted January 1, 2009 Share Posted January 1, 2009 gorgeo5 Posted Yesterday, 11:27 PM what about the Emperors children dreadnought didnt he survie as he went down to the lower levels of the city? Ancient Rylanor probably has the best chance of survival since he was specifically stated to be "sealed" against the virus bombing, unlike Huron-Fal who had his armour damaged. Since he's already a Dread he can carry more life support, for longer. It's still just as feasible for him to have been killed, but if anyone survived Isstvaan III, he did. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/135817-possible-survivors-of-istvaan-3/#findComment-1825658 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rain Posted January 1, 2009 Share Posted January 1, 2009 Honestly I think leaving any of these characters alive cheapens the impact that the initial betrayal on Istvaan is supposed to have, that is, that it killed a lot of heroic and noble Astartes. It's kind of a copout to make the first battle between Astartes not have any casualties beyond the usual group of no-name red shirts. And yeah the loyalists are getting beaten right now, that's how you build up drama, you all do know that you win in the end right? :cuss Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/135817-possible-survivors-of-istvaan-3/#findComment-1825754 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord_Caerolion Posted January 1, 2009 Share Posted January 1, 2009 I agree with Rain. Loken was at the surface of the planet when the final bombardment hit, which was intended to utterly flatten the city. A few blocks of masonry partially covering him won't save him from that. As for the hangar, a shuttle isn't big enough to have a warp drive. You need something escort-size for that, which to my knowledge aren't atmosphere capable. Just remember guys, even if Abnett stated Loken would appear in another novel, he never stated when that novel would be set. We've already seen novels move around from the time period after the first three novels, so the next book with Loken could do the same thing. It could be a novel about the Imperial Fists, and have that part where Loken meets the first Black Templar leader, can't remember his name at the moment, but have the moment through the eyes of the Fists. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/135817-possible-survivors-of-istvaan-3/#findComment-1825823 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Snail Posted January 1, 2009 Share Posted January 1, 2009 Honestly I think leaving any of these characters alive cheapens the impact that the initial betrayal on Istvaan is supposed to have, that is, that it killed a lot of heroic and noble Astartes. It's kind of a copout to make the first battle between Astartes not have any casualties beyond the usual group of no-name red shirts. And yeah the loyalists are getting beaten right now, that's how you build up drama, you all do know that you win in the end right? :( Well, sure, the loyalists beat Warmaster Horus and stopped the seige of Terra, but I wouldn't exactly call it a win. Not until Abaddons head is delivered to the Golden Throne on a stick, like Jose Jalapeno. . . On a Steek! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/135817-possible-survivors-of-istvaan-3/#findComment-1825908 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grand Master Tyrak Posted January 1, 2009 Share Posted January 1, 2009 As for the hangar, a shuttle isn't big enough to have a warp drive. You need something escort-size for that, which to my knowledge aren't atmosphere capable. You're right in a sense. Most escorts are atmosphere-capable, but they are city-sized. You can get smaller ships like freighters and such that are warp-capable though. Either way, the Loyalists would sweep they Isstvaan system for survivors when they discover the Dropsite massacre. When we get the results back from that, we'll know for sure. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/135817-possible-survivors-of-istvaan-3/#findComment-1825938 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord_Caerolion Posted January 1, 2009 Share Posted January 1, 2009 I thought most freighters were either slower-than-light, used only for inter-system, or were absolutely massive bulk-cargo ships? Either way, we also need to remember that for this hangar to be of any use, the exit needs to remain intact. A ship isn't any use if you can't get it out of the hangar, and the bombardment fired was meant to absolutely flatten the region. With that size bombardment, what are the chances the exit would remain intact? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/135817-possible-survivors-of-istvaan-3/#findComment-1825952 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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