possible survivors of Istvaan 3?

[Grand Master Tyrak]

You can have warp-capable transport ships that are capable of atmospheric entry, the same applies with freighters. Obviously there are, as you say, massive super-heavy freighters that cannot effect atmospheric entry. Have a look at some of the BFG supplements on the Specialist Games website for more info.

 

Your point about the exit still stands though - good thinking! ;)

[gorgeo5]

Ancient Rylanor probably has the best chance of survival since he was specifically stated to be "sealed" against the virus bombing, unlike Huron-Fal who had his armour damaged. Since he's already a Dread he can carry more life support, for longer. It's still just as feasible for him to have been killed, but if anyone survived Isstvaan III, he did.

 

Great i liked Ancient Rylanor even tho he had only a few lines in the book but hey

[jakiwis]

I'm not sure but I think Tarik Torgaddon and Garviel Loken were killed by Abbaddon and Little Horus. At least Tarik surely was. THough I am quite sure I read Loken being struck down.

 

I do have my suspicions on Saul Tarvitz, Nero Vipus and Rylanor surviving. There was no exact passage in the novel that says Vipus and Tarvitz were killed in the bombardment. According to Lucius on the other hand, Rylanor was guaring something so he is not sure if the ancient really died. Solomon Demeter is a confirmed kill and I am not sure (or forgot) is Caphen (his 2nd in command) lived. I also think some of the Death Guard should be able to survive. I think only the World Eaters got themselves wiped on before the bombardment.

[Grim Dog Studios]

Was tarvitz the emps children captain, if so i think he got killed in a sword fight by lucius?

[Lord_Caerolion]

There was no exact passage in the novel that says Vipus and Tarvitz were killed in the bombardment.

 

Yeah, you're right. You know why though? Because it doesn't really need to be stated that people will die when they're in a city that's just about to be utterly, utterly flattened by a full-scale orbital bombardment. These aren't things you walk out of with just a scratch. Surviving the last one was just a fluke, the next one launched was done to leave nothing standing, and burn the surrounding dirt to glass.

 

Put simply, they were standing in an open area, in a ruined church. No cover there whatsoever, and cover wouldn't really do much. If they were deep enough to survive the blast, they wouldn't be able to dig themselves out of the rubble.

[jakiwis]

Was tarvitz the emps children captain, if so i think he got killed in a sword fight by lucius?

 

 

Tarvitz and Lucius are both Emperor Children captains too. The captain Lucius killed was Solomon Demeter. Tarvitz fought Lucius but Lucius was able to excape and join up with Eidolon.

[Ethrion]

Its quite possible that a handful of loyalists survived. Collected Visions elaborates a little further on from the Horus Heresy series of novels saying that should any of the loyalists have survived the bombardment they had neither the means to communicate nor travel off world. Istvaan III would be their prison or their tomb and that Horus could return and deal with any survivors at a later date once he had defeated the Emperor and dealt with more pressing issues. Of course we know he didnt get a chance to return so maybe some survived.

[Lord_Caerolion]

And as you said, it would be either their prison or their tomb. They had no means of calling for help, or for getting off the planet. Why would the Loyalists bother checking a planet that had just been utterly flattened? If they managed to survive the bombardment, they've now starved to death.

[moranimal]

Unless of course Dorn or his first captain shows up with some IF on a reconnaissance mission after Horus has left Istvaan III. You never know what can happen ... :jaw: After all, how did Garro and the seventy get back to the moon base? The Eisenstein was certainly in no condition to make it there on its own.

 

Edit: Corrected spelling.

[Grand Master Tyrak]

moranimal Posted Today, 08:36 PM

Unless of course Dorn or his first captain shows up with some IF on a reconnaissance mission after Horus has left Istvaan III. You never know what can happen ... After all, how did Garro and the seventy get back to the moon base? The Eisenstein was certainly in no condition to make it there on its own.

 

The IF fleet was recalled to save the SM armour from the Mars Dark Mechanicum. Garro & Co were taken to Luna by the Phalanx.

[Ethrion]

And as you said, it would be either their prison or their tomb. They had no means of calling for help, or for getting off the planet. Why would the Loyalists bother checking a planet that had just been utterly flattened? If they managed to survive the bombardment, they've now starved to death.

With that said, does anyone know roughly how long a space marine can live self-sustained through the recycling of his own waste in his power armour. I think the Ultramarines novel 'Dead Sky, Black Sun' touched on this but only vaguely. Then again, the loyalists had already been fighting on Istvaan for months without supplies so they would have already been suffering. Maybe there was food stores hidden deep below the surface; I'm sure that old gem will be reeled out if GW decides that there were survivors.

 

I'm sure marines can survive for quite a while, so I guess that if GW intends any of the loyalists to have survived then it is likely that after Horus was defeated some form of Imperial recon fleet returned to the Istvaan system and searched for survivors; therby coming across them.

[Cyrox]

Judging by the way they zealously destroyed the homeworlds of the traitor legions, I think the Imperium would kill the survivors anyway - prob thinking they could be corrupted

[Ethrion]

Judging by the way they zealously destroyed the homeworlds of the traitor legions, I think the Imperium would kill the survivors anyway - prob thinking they could be corrupted

Actually that's more than likely!

[Lord Lorne Walkier]

It is mentioned

that they found a shuttle, but whether they actually escaped is also not yet known.

 

he was indeed seen going off to investigate a hidden hangar full of shuttles of Praal's according to Lucius in 'Fulgrim', so i reckon he's still alive.

 

Supposably the hangar is deep enough to withstand any bombardment, and does have working ships with warp drives in them.

What we know about the hanger...... Two men talking, Lucius and Eidolon. Question...... what about Rylanor??

"I don't know for sure about that. After the bombing he took himself off into the depths of the precentor's palace. I never saw him again." "Not like Rylanor to run from a fight." "no." "though Travitz did say something about him guarding something." "Guarding what?" "He did not say. Rumour was he found some kind of under ground hangar, but if that were the case, then why didn't Praal use it to escape when the legions arrived?" "True it is the nature of the coward to flee rather than fight. Well no matter, whatever Rylanor's purpose, it is irrelevant, for he is buried beneath thousands of tonnes of radioactive slag"

 

 

This is the all we know about what Rylanor found and guarded. No mention about what type of ship might have been in the hanger, how many, the race of the creator. The only thing we know is that Rylanor found the contents of the hanger worth his full attention. Personally i think that there must have been a ship there, one that was good enough to get them out of the situation they were trapped in. I also don't think Rylanor would have wasted his time with a hanger that could not withstand the full fury of the War-master. I mean really, why build a hanger underground in the first place if not to withstand bombing?

Where does it say that they took a marine from all the traitors? It actually says he found 8 marines who were unquestionable loyal to the emperor and had psykic talents, and that Curze and Garro would be the first inquisitors(last chapter of flight of the eisenstein)

I don't see where it says that Curze or Garro where going to be inquisitors, just part of that organization, which the Grey Knights are.

 

I also think some of the Death Guard should be able to survive. I think only the World Eaters got themselves wiped on before the bombardment.

 

You are wrong here. There where some confused looking World Eaters among the troops with Travitz at the time of the bombarment.

 

I agree with Rain. Loken was at the surface of the planet when the final bombardment hit, which was intended to utterly flatten the city. A few blocks of masonry partially covering him won't save him from that.

 

 

There was no exact passage in the novel that says Vipus and Tarvitz were killed in the bombardment.

 

Yeah, you're right. You know why though? Because it doesn't really need to be stated that people will die when they're in a city that's just about to be utterly, utterly flattened by a full-scale orbital bombardment. These aren't things you walk out of with just a scratch. Surviving the last one was just a fluke, the next one launched was done to leave nothing standing, and burn the surrounding dirt to glass.

 

Put simply, they were standing in an open area, in a ruined church. No cover there whatsoever, and cover wouldn't really do much. If they were deep enough to survive the blast, they wouldn't be able to dig themselves out of the rubble.

 

I must disagree with you here. The Warmaster himself said the reason bombing your enemy is not the answer is that you can not be sure that you kill them all. Also, you really think that these soldiers who where still fighting the battle of their lives where hanging out in a place with no cover. It might have been a church but it had to be a heavily fortified church, and i think there had to be plenty of cover. But i don't think that is what saved them in the end. These men had Faith in the Emperor, and that was their shield. If these men were beyond the help or notice of the Emperor then who would the Epm intervene to help? People act as if they equipment and skills alone would not be enough to save them. What if some had Iron Halo's? (AKA Conversion Fields) What if these men who were repressed psykers had a manifestation of their power that saved them?

[tacklbry]

There are almost always survivors. There were survivors after we flattened Dresden. There were survivors after Hiroshima and Nagasaki (sp?). Men experienced in war can find surprising ways to survive. Whether we will ever hear from them again is another matter. But if villians can return from impossible odds like 40k's Wile E. Coyote, then I don't see why a couple herows cannot find a way to be a thorn in the supervillians side.

[moranimal]

moranimal Posted Today, 08:36 PM

Unless of course Dorn or his first captain shows up with some IF on a reconnaissance mission after Horus has left Istvaan III. You never know what can happen ... After all, how did Garro and the seventy get back to the moon base? The Eisenstein was certainly in no condition to make it there on its own.

 

The IF fleet was recalled to save the SM armour from the Mars Dark Mechanicum. Garro & Co were taken to Luna by the Phalanx.

 

As I remember while reading FotE, doesn't Dorn himself enter into the Eisenstein after asking for permission to board from Garro? (Garro did not know who or what was on the opposing ship at the time prior to the boarding, and demanded that whoever it was identify themselves and ask permission to board. In fact, Garro later gets slapped around by Dorn for a minute or two for suggesting Horus would turn traitor.) As they are out on patrol and would have first-hand knowledge of Istvaan III from Garro, nothing stops Dorn - or some portion of the fleet - from stopping there to look for survivors.

[Grand Master Tyrak]

As I remember while reading FotE, doesn't Dorn himself enter into the Eisenstein after asking for permission to board from Garro? (Garro did not know who or what was on the opposing ship at the time prior to the boarding, and demanded that whoever it was identify themselves and ask permission to board. In fact, Garro later gets slapped around by Dorn for a minute or two for suggesting Horus would turn traitor.)

 

Correct.

 

As they are out on patrol and would have first-hand knowledge of Istvaan III from Garro, nothing stops Dorn - or some portion of the fleet - from stopping there to look for survivors.

 

No. The Eisenstein has fled the Istvaan system by this point. Dorn takes the Eisenstein 70 to Luna in the Phalanx, whilst the rest of the IF fleet is sent to Istvaan to get an explanation from Horus. However, they are becalmed in the warp and never reach Istvaan, and are recalled to Terra to reappear in the events in Mechanicum. I believe it is in Fulgrim that it is stated the IFs were unable to reach the system, otherwise they would have been present at the Dropsite Massacre.

[moranimal]

As I remember, they didn't reach the Istvaan system in time for the massacre - that is true. While the majority of the fleet does head back for Mars / Terra (with the Phalanx going to Luna), some elements went to the Istvaan system after Horus was long gone. Thus they avoid the massacre and are in a position to find any survivors, should there be any. Now I just after to remember where I read that. I know it wasn't in any of the HH series, but supplementary material. Until then, I cannot say for sure and may just be imagining things.

[Lord_Caerolion]

Actually, Walkier, if we're going game mechanics to how they could survive, a proper bombardment from a full fleet would be S D, which ignores saves of any kind.

 

Also, you seem to underestimate the power of orbital bombardments. These aren't things a sandbag can save you from. Having pillars around you won't stop the explosion. Having pillars around you adds more rubble to fall and crush you. Having rubble around won't last for long, as these things are designed to flatten planets. Orbital bombardments are used by the Inquisition to remove all trace of cities, or anything else. Seriously, you cannot survive that.

 

You still haven't discounted the fact that while there may be a hangar, you still need to have the launch-bay clear, so that the shuttle/what-have-you can actually leave said hangar. Put another way, a speed-boat won't help you get off an island if it's inside a lake with no route to the sea.

If this hangar is deep enough to survive the bombardment, then it also stands to reason that the rubble that falls into the launch route will also be deep enough to not be turned to pebbles/glass, and will block said route. Hell, who says the exit to this hangar is structurally sound enough to survive a bombardment without collapsing in on itself? Oh, but the Spirit of the Emperor will come along, and hold the tunnel open long enough for their ship to leave, rewarding them for their faith in a person who doesn't want to be worshipped.

 

You see, this faith arguement forgets one thing. It sure as hell didn't protect Lorgar.

Surely with how much faith Lorgar had in the Emperor he'd be protected from the corrupting influence of the Chaos Gods? Why did the Emperor then choose to save Loken, a mere grunt in the scheme of things, and not one of his sons? Didn't Lorgar have enough faith in him, or something?

 

Of course, you're going to argue "what about Keeler? She's a Saint of the Emperor!" No, she gets called a Saint by deckworkers and other lowly, largely ineducated people, who have most likely never seen a psyker in their life. What Keeler did was banish a daemon, using a talisman of an eagle as a focus. The Emperor doesn't have to come into it. What happened was she was a latent psyker who became a born-again Emperor worshipper. Like many, she then attributed her good fortune to her God. Her psychic ability doesn't necessarily have anything to do with the Emperor. After all, whats written isn't necessarily the utter truth, right? It's all Imperial propagana?

 

As again, you have to remember that the Emperor doesn't have these amazing powers. He is a powerful psyker, sure, but at least at the moment he isn't a God. His powerful God-hood comes later, after he ascends the Throne, and steadily has the Imperium turned into a church-state. Until then, no he cannot save people on the other side of the galaxy because "they have faith in him". No, these Marines do not have "faith" in him, not in the sense you mean, they are staying loyal to him. That's very, very different to regarding him as a god. They see him as the rightful leader of the Imperium, so they probably aren't asking him to keep them safe. He doesn't know they need saving. After all, the only thing the Emperor knows is that something bad has happened at Istvaan. He doesn't know Horus has betrayed him. He doesn't know Loken is loyal still, or Torgaddon, or Garro, or Demeter. He's just a powerful psyker, nothing more.

[Captain Kael]

I think only the World Eaters got themselves wiped on before the bombardment.

 

You are incorrect my friend. In Galaxy In Flames, towards the end of the book, where Tarvitz and the remaining survivors are in the temple, awaiting the orbital bombardment to finish them off, Tarvitz makes an observation and states who is with him in the chamber.

 

In the book it says " A hundred of Tarvitz's loyalists remained. They were the only survivors of ther glorious last stand, and he had gathered them in the remains of the Warsinger's Temple - Sons Of Horus, Emperor's Children, and even a few lost looking World Eaters." So there you have it, some World Eaters did survive before the final bombardment.

 

For reference this is on page 404

 

Captain Kael

[Captain Kael]

Sorry double post. ^_^

 

Captain Kael

[Favoured of the Emperor]

Actually, Walkier, if we're going game mechanics to how they could survive, a proper bombardment from a full fleet would be S D, which ignores saves of any kind.

 

Well, there aren't rules for the most powerful things that they can use. We have worse than Orbital Bombardments in modern day earth - the H-Bomb, which is so hot, it turns all the earth for kilometres around into sand. So the writers use bombardments, which are still bloody powerful, but isn't that powerful so that it won't leave survivors, so there is definately survivors.

 

And I personally think even though Loken is a large character in the books, he shouldn't coem back. He was stepped on by a titan, after being smacked around by Abaddon, and Torgaddon definately won't survive, as it clearly states his head was cut off. I will stop reading the Horus Heresy books if Tarik reappears.

 

FOE

[lee265]

first the hanger door may not have been directly hit by the bombardment it could have been anywhere within a certain distance of the city which means there may not have been ruble to fall upon it. also the ship/s could easily be xenos and that means they could posibly be small but capable of warp travel maybe without the navigator. also several orbital strike options are available to any ship and some are most definatly survivable even the virus bomb or there would be no Istavan III.

[Lord Lorne Walkier]

You still haven't discounted the fact that while there may be a hangar, you still need to have the launch-bay clear, so that the shuttle/what-have-you can actually leave said hangar. Put another way, a speed-boat won't help you get off an island if it's inside a lake with no route to the sea.

If this hangar is deep enough to survive the bombardment, then it also stands to reason that the rubble that falls into the launch route will also be deep enough to not be turned to pebbles/glass, and will block said route. Hell, who says the exit to this hangar is structurally sound enough to survive a bombardment without collapsing in on itself? Oh, but the Spirit of the Emperor will come along, and hold the tunnel open long enough for their ship to leave, rewarding them for their faith in a person who doesn't want to be worshipped.

 

What is the point really, of building a hanger underground if not to withstand a bombardment? What is the point of building said hanger undergound to survive a attack if you also dont build a way for the ships in it to escape? Why would Rylanor feel that the place was important if it could not survive a bombardment and give them a way of world? I think that the hanger was not zenos. I think it had to be left over form when the Raven Guard brought the planet into compliance. Corax might have been thinking ahead.

[Grand Master Tyrak]

What is the point really, of building a hanger underground if not to withstand a bombardment? What is the point of building said hanger undergound to survive a attack if you also dont build a way for the ships in it to escape? Why would Rylanor feel that the place was important if it could not survive a bombardment and give them a way of world?

 

It's not whether the hangar itself survived, that's quite likely (discounting the fact that the existence of said hangar has yet to be confirmed). So, everything works fine, the doors open - and there's a shedload of rocks blocking the exit.

 

I think that the hanger was not zenos. I think it had to be left over form when the Raven Guard brought the planet into compliance. Corax might have been thinking ahead.

 

If Corax was thinking ahead you'd think he'd have known not to come back and nearly get himself killed at Isstvaan V. :)