No ATSKNF....Why?

[Chaplain Erasmus]

One thing I've always wondered at is why, fluff-wise, Chaos Space Marines dont have And They Shall Know No Fear. I mean, they came from the same training regime that made the loyalist Space Marines, and are just as battle-hardened as they are (If not more so). Many of them have been kicking around since the Horus Heresy, and they live in the Eye of Terror-- the scariest place in the galaxy. So really, aside from fairness to game mechanics, why don't Chaos Space Marines have And They Shall Know No Fear?

[Tfcdogbert]

To distinguish us from the loyalists, i dont think there is a fluff reason.

[ChapniK]

Its because SM have a toltal faith in the All father. they do not fear death for the do the Emperors biding. Csm do not have this level of fate exept maybe for the word bearers. That one of the reason but the main one is for game balance.

[Lay]

The early 3rd ed Chaos codex stated that CSM would rather save their own skin than performing acts of heroism.

The lack of ATSKNF was even implemented as the "corrupted" special rule.

[Hellios]

Its because SM have a toltal faith in the All father. they do not fear death for the do the Emperors biding. Csm do not have this level of fate exept maybe for the word bearers. That one of the reason but the main one is for game balance.

 

 

It always make me laugh that Wolves (which space wolves especially 13th company can take) have ATSKNF.

[Gideon Bane]

Mechanically CSM have higher leadership and can take a mark to further enhance it, putting them more or less on par with the loyalists, just in a different way.

[DeathsHead]

I actually think that it meshes with the fluff quite well. The overall category of "Chaos Marine" is actually almost diverse enough to be slightly nonsensical. However, the various groups includes in this category are fairly distinct from their loyalist counterparts in organizational structure, battle-doctrine and personal motivation.

 

Loyalist chapters are fairly standardized - in theory. According to the dictates of the Imperium (as set forth by Guilliman), this standardization includes an absolutely iron-clad obedience to the chain of command. ATSKNF represents this obedience to the chain of command and the unflinching willingness to reference all individual marine behavior to the overall tactical requirements of the battle-unit in question. This is not the same thing as individual fanaticism and bravery. Discipline and bravery, while closely related, can be conceived of as somewhat distinct from each other.

 

Chaos Marines (diverse though they may be) tend to be more individualistic in their orientation - or at least more impulsive. This would seem to make sense both within the Chaos Legions of old as well as the various, rag-tag warbands that have sprouted up (whatever their origins) since then. The Legions, dwelling primarily within the Eye of Terror, are subject to the raw influence of Chaos which tends towards Entropy and Dissolution. These forces may be mighty, cunning, courageous and blood-thirsty, but the influence of Chaos is such that it is likely to have a somewhat corrosive effect on the Chain of command as individual marines increase in their personal level of ambition, psychosis and nihilism. They might be nearly fearless on a personal level, but they are less likely to reference their behavior to the overall unit in such an absolute manner as that of their Imperial counterparts. "Renegade" warbands can be assumed to be subject to a similar phenomenon for a variety of reasons: diversity within their unit as a result of including marines from different origins, or perhaps the spiritual anarchy resulting from severance from the Emperor. Even a warband made up of marines from a single chapter is likely to suffer spiritual fallout from the act of betrayal, as their center - the Emperor - has been removed. All of the above mentioned background situations seem to be expressed fairly well by the basic Chaos marine statline (higher leadership than your typical Imperial marine) as well as other things like the mark of Chaos Undivided to represent those particularly die-hard and fanatical devotees of Chaos.

 

On the other hand, we have groups which are much less typical of any form of Astartes: the Cult Legions. Generally the "marines" composing these groups bear no relation to humanity (or even marine-hood) any more, and their "fearless" rules reflect it: Plague Marines and Berzerkers are almost raw incarnations of the will of their driving deity, and they have virtually no personal considerations. The automatons of the Thousand Sons are obviously without any sense of self, and Noise Marines are beyond considerations of morale or loyalty altogether, having fallen to depths of utterly sub/super-human depravity.

[Rain]

What's always bugged me about Chaos Marines retreating though is the idea that as long as the Chaos Lord is still alive, falling back would probably prove to be a surer death warrant than staying and fighting. I mean I really can't imagine a Lord tolerating cowardice or self-preservation especially if these impede his personal agenda. Therefore I think it would make sense if CSM had ATSKNF as long as the HQ is alive and lose it once he dies as the marines decide that they have nothing to lose by running.

[TheDarkApostle]

What's always bugged me about Chaos Marines retreating though is the idea that as long as the Chaos Lord is still alive, falling back would probably prove to be a surer death warrant than staying and fighting. I mean I really can't imagine a Lord tolerating cowardice or self-preservation especially if these impede his personal agenda. Therefore I think it would make sense if CSM had ATSKNF as long as the HQ is alive and lose it once he dies as the marines decide that they have nothing to lose by running.

True, and it would make sence, only bad thing though is that it can be seen as a fairly complicated rule. And we all know what GW hates right? ;)

 

TDA

[Hellios]

What's always bugged me about Chaos Marines retreating though is the idea that as long as the Chaos Lord is still alive, falling back would probably prove to be a surer death warrant than staying and fighting. I mean I really can't imagine a Lord tolerating cowardice or self-preservation especially if these impede his personal agenda. Therefore I think it would make sense if CSM had ATSKNF as long as the HQ is alive and lose it once he dies as the marines decide that they have nothing to lose by running.

True, and it would make sence, only bad thing though is that it can be seen as a fairly complicated rule. And we all know what GW hates right? :sweat:

 

TDA

 

Not really more complicated than "The Sorcerer Commands" -_-

[x_beowolf_x1]

These are all very good reasons, but I think the most that stands out is the game balance.

 

CSM are the best (at least thats what i think) troop choice in the game. Why make them even more powerful?

[Lady_Canoness]

I think its because when Chaos Marines fight, they aren't there for some haughty goal or purpose (maybe the Lord is) but most of the CSMs are there because they want to be. When they are fighting and killing, they are doing what they enjoy more than anything, and they don't care if they (or those around them) die - representing the Ld 9 or 10.

 

The lack of ATSKNF represents that Chaos Marines are not bound by duty. When a Chaos Marine has had enough, or he thinks that fighting on would be pointless, he leaves - not out of fear, but more out of spite. Picture him sticking it to the lord and saying "Take your idean and shove it! I'm out of here!"

[TheDarkApostle]

Picture him sticking it to the lord and saying "Take your idean and shove it! I'm out of here!"

Then it would pretty much end a split second later with said marine having the Lords axe/sword/whatever stuck in his head.

 

TDA

[tacklbry]

Loyalist marines are fanatics. You can use fanatics to do all sorts of things because their beliefs will convince them to do things well into the realm of stupidity. Chaos Marines, as those that know the treuth about the Emperor, are not Fanatics (well al least the non cult ones) and consequently rely on their discipline, knowledge and instinct ot make decisions. This is relfected in their higher leadership. But they have the sense to un-aqss an area when the fight is lost.

[Rain]

Picture him sticking it to the lord and saying "Take your idean and shove it! I'm out of here!"

Then it would pretty much end a split second later with said marine having the Lords axe/sword/whatever stuck in his eat.

 

TDA

 

My point exactly :D

[kil78]

Picture him sticking it to the lord and saying "Take your idean and shove it! I'm out of here!"

Then it would pretty much end a split second later with said marine having the Lords axe/sword/whatever stuck in his eat.

 

TDA

 

My point exactly ;)

 

 

except for the fact that a chaos lord that regularly abuses his marines by killing the ones who do not fight to the last man is more then likely gonna get shoved out an air lock

[Tfcdogbert]

Well most chaos lords get that anyway, the only way he keeps his men in line is fear, he kills them if they do not fight otherwise he gets killed tryng to persuade them to fight, or kiled after he ran away after his men and the veil of his strength collapses and some aspiring champion knocks him off, if he doesnt keep his men in line then he is dead, to keep them in like he kills cowards.

[Rain]

Also, if sources like Storm of Iron are to be believed, then some Chaos Lords are virtually gods to their troops and therefore exercise their whims as they see fit. The unnamed Warsmith from SoI struck fear into all of his captains and if I remember correctly (it's been a few years) none of them even entertained the thought of being able to kill him and just strove to please him so as not to become spawn. Similarly, I imagine a daemon prince would likewise terrorize his own troops with little fear of reprisal due to his immortality. Remember, chaos is all about individual power and so those that reach the zenith of that power are probably not shy about applying it.

[Lay]

the only way he keeps his men in line is fear

I imagine a daemon prince would likewise terrorize his own troops

I guess we need a "And They Shall Know Fear" rule then.

[Rain]

Actually yes, but it would be protective fear, as in fear our own leader more than we fear the enemy. Also, anyone else think it's ironic that the phrase "And they shall know no fear for they are fear incarnate" was coined by Night Haunter, whose legion doesn't actually benefit from the rule? :huh:

[Ubermensch Commander]

Chaos Marines do not get ATSKNF because they spat on their oaths of honor and DO NOT fight for a higher cause. Barring the Gods specific legions, all of the Chaos Renegades(Yes even the Word Bearers) are self interested on the whole. They may fight for hatred, for the Gods, for the love of killing, or for power but in the end they are doing it for THEMSELVES. And even that higher cause may not be enough to make them fight to the bitter end. Their sense of self worth keeps them at very high leadership. They see themselves as demi-gods of battle and rightfully so! Their hatred/pride/whatever may drive them to incredible feats....but not to self destruction in most cases.

They spat on their oaths of loyalty to the Emperor and Mankind....you really think they will stand and fight in the name Lord XYZ's to further XYZ's glory? Nope. and the threat of IMMEDIATE extinction(from enemy's guns) is a damn good motivator compared to Lord's wrath.

Although i think a Commisar like rule would be funny and fluffy for the Chaos Space Marine Lords. Kill D3-D6 marines from running squad within 6" of lord......only problem though...i doubt they would rally! The Running marines would just think "Better bob than me! Time to get outta range of the Lords swod/guns!"

 

So fear (of their Lord) and a sense of SUPREME SELF WORTH/CONFIDENCE give them a high leadership...but unless they worship the gods(see Icons and God specific legions) they dont serve a higher purpose than their own ego.

[Hally]

The reason (in my opinion anyway) is that they put their ego before The Emperor, and renounced him. They believe in themselves more than anything. This, of course, leads to them wanting to.. well stay alive.

[TheDarkApostle]

Chaos Marines do not get ATSKNF because they spat on their oaths of honor and DO NOT fight for a higher cause. Barring the Gods specific legions, all of the Chaos Renegades(Yes even the Word Bearers) are self interested on the whole. They may fight for hatred, for the Gods, for the love of killing, or for power but in the end they are doing it for THEMSELVES. And even that higher cause may not be enough to make them fight to the bitter end. Their sense of self worth keeps them at very high leadership. They see themselves as demi-gods of battle and rightfully so! Their hatred/pride/whatever may drive them to incredible feats....but not to self destruction in most cases.

They spat on their oaths of loyalty to the Emperor and Mankind....you really think they will stand and fight in the name Lord XYZ's to further XYZ's glory? Nope. and the threat of IMMEDIATE extinction(from enemy's guns) is a damn good motivator compared to Lord's wrath.

Although i think a Commisar like rule would be funny and fluffy for the Chaos Space Marine Lords. Kill D3-D6 marines from running squad within 6" of lord......only problem though...i doubt they would rally! The Running marines would just think "Better bob than me! Time to get outta range of the Lords swod/guns!"

 

So fear (of their Lord) and a sense of SUPREME SELF WORTH/CONFIDENCE give them a high leadership...but unless they worship the gods(see Icons and God specific legions) they dont serve a higher purpose than their own ego.

I disagree, the Word Bearers do fight for the Gods. I could get you page numbers and specific quotes if you want? :P

 

TDA

[Storm Hunter]

 

The thing about chaos marines trying to save their own hides is proven in dark apostle when Jarulek is shot in the back by his apprentice (can't remember his name) while fighting a necron lord. He then steals jarulek crozius and runs.

 

 

-Don't spoil! :huh: // TDA

[TheDarkApostle]

The thing about chaos marines trying to save their own hides is proven in dark apostle when Jarulek is shot in the back by his apprentice (can't remember his name) while fighting a necron lord. He then steals jarulek crozius and runs.

 

But then again Jarulek brought it on himself by attacking Marduk first. Marduk recived the brand of Lorgar on top of that remember? Lorgar and the Gods willed that Marduk walked out of there and not Jarulek. End of story.

 

 

TDA