No ATSKNF....Why?

[Ubermensch Commander]

The thing about chaos marines trying to save their own hides is proven in dark apostle when Jarulek is shot in the back by his apprentice (can't remember his name) while fighting a necron lord. He then steals jarulek crozius and runs.

 

 

-Don't spoil! ^_^ // TDA

 

 

Thank You. My point EXACTLY. They worship the gods and fight for them.....but to gain favor, power, glory, and immortality. Only the DEDICATED (see God specific Legions) nutjobs are fearless.

 

@ The Dark Apostle-I did list the gods as one reason Chaos Marines fight. It just doesnt trump their own ambition in most cases.

[Ju'kosian]

The thing about chaos marines trying to save their own hides is proven in dark apostle when Jarulek is shot in the back by his apprentice (can't remember his name) while fighting a necron lord. He then steals jarulek crozius and runs.

 

But then again Jarulek brought it on himself by attacking Marduk first. Marduk recived the brand of Lorgar on top of that remember? Lorgar and the Gods willed that Marduk walked out of there and not Jarulek. End of story.

 

 

TDA

 

TDA has it right, he got it on himself..

[Loketh]

At the comment about strict chain of command--

 

If that's the case, why wasn't ATSKNF in the now outdated special rules? I mean, Alpharius INVENTED Space Marine chain of command! It used to be every marine for himself, but Alpharius was the one who introduced the idea of fighting in organised squads to the Legions.

[Khestra the Unbeheld]

At the comment about strict chain of command--

 

If that's the case, why wasn't ATSKNF in the now outdated special rules? I mean, Alpharius INVENTED Space Marine chain of command! It used to be every marine for himself, but Alpharius was the one who introduced the idea of fighting in organised squads to the Legions.

 

Methinks there are several older Legions that would disagree with that. The Luna Wolves and the Dark Angels in particular come to mind.

[DeathsHead]

My thoughts on the portrayal of CSM as self-serving:

 

I was always unsatisfied by this idea, because I thought it smacked of the kind of "villain" cliches that already abound in pop-culture, as though no one could come up with motivations for an "evil" character besides myopic selfishness, or on the other hand, mindless fanaticism.

 

Thinking creatively, and recognizing the natural diversity concealed in the term "Chaos Space Marines" it shouldn't be hard to rationalize psychological motivations besides self-serving, back-biting greed and treachery.

[sonsoftaurus]

Imperial Space Marines shall know no fear.

 

Chaos Marines have travelled in the dark places of the galaxy and know that there are indeed things that should be feared.

 

And they aspire to become one of them.

[Ju'kosian]

Imperial Space Marines shall know no fear.

 

Chaos Marines have travelled in the dark places of the galaxy and know that there are indeed things that should be feared.

 

And they aspire to become one of them.

 

That sounds like a reasonable explanation to me <_<

[Commissar Molotov]

Sonsoftaurus' post was really very cool, I thought.

 

There's a .PDF on the Specialist-Games site for representing Chaos Marines in games of Inquisitor. Here's an extract which might prove useful for this discussion:

 

My last breath won't be for the likes of you: Chaos Marines don't have a cause to die for. Their cause is staying alive with as much power as possible. Therefore it's more likely they will retreat when their life is in danger, rather than fight to their last.

 

A contract is worth nothing unless written in blood: Not one to go out of their way to help others, a Chaos Marine is likely to leave an ally to die unless they have a really, really good reasonto help.

 

I do agree with some of the assertions in this thread that the hardcore zealots (like the Word Bearers) and the cult troopers would likely have a different outlook to some of the different Legions and Renegade warbands, though.

[Lord Exedore]

maybe with 5th ed we (loyalists) will know fear...

 

Let us see. For me it was because it most symbolises the frantic knowledge that only the emperor is the true master - in opposite to the chaos gods. But I guess they are going to remove it...its a shame, one can reason a lot out of atsknf.

[Storm Hunter]

I thin that the reason why chaos don't have and they shall know no fear (;) know no) is because they already have ld 9 and the aspiring champions have a leadership 10 which is the same as a space marine commander. Still they took away our veteran skills so we should get something in return.

[JamesI]

I thin that the reason why chaos don't have and they shall know no fear (;) know no) is because they already have ld 9 and the aspiring champions have a leadership 10 which is the same as a space marine commander. Still they took away our veteran skills so we should get something in return.

Chaos does get something. Its called icon of chaos glory and the ability to have a bolter and 2 close combat weapons.

[Khestra the Unbeheld]

I thin that the reason why chaos don't have and they shall know no fear (:lol: know no) is because they already have ld 9 and the aspiring champions have a leadership 10 which is the same as a space marine commander. Still they took away our veteran skills so we should get something in return.

Chaos does get something. Its called icon of chaos glory and the ability to have a bolter and 2 close combat weapons.

 

So, when the Loyalist SMs get the bolter + BP + CCW combo, does that mean the scale is balanced? ;)

[JamesI]

I thin that the reason why chaos don't have and they shall know no fear (:lol: know no) is because they already have ld 9 and the aspiring champions have a leadership 10 which is the same as a space marine commander. Still they took away our veteran skills so we should get something in return.

Chaos does get something. Its called icon of chaos glory and the ability to have a bolter and 2 close combat weapons.

 

So, when the Loyalist SMs get the bolter + BP + CCW combo, does that mean the scale is balanced? ;)

Based on BA and DA, loyalists will only get bolter and bolt pistol, not all three.

[Loketh]

However, in the commentary on the new Chaos Space Marine book, the devs were talking about how it was silly for any marine to go into battle without all 3-- bolter, CC, and bolt pistol. From the way they were talking about it, it seems as if all future marine books will follow suit. And if anything, the Loyalist dogs SHOULD be better equipped than we are.

 

And we'll still beat the crap out of them.

[TheDarkApostle]

However, in the commentary on the new Chaos Space Marine book, the devs were talking about how it was silly for any marine to go into battle without all 3-- bolter, CC, and bolt pistol. From the way they were talking about it, it seems as if all future marine books will follow suit. And if anything, the Loyalist dogs SHOULD be better equipped than we are.

 

And we'll still beat the crap out of them.

No, they should be worse since most of them are extremely inflexible due to having to adhere to the Codex Astartes, something we fuel our bonfires with :huh:

 

TDA

[Kaptain Von]

However, in the commentary on the new Chaos Space Marine book, the devs were talking about how it was silly for any marine to go into battle without all 3-- bolter, CC, and bolt pistol. From the way they were talking about it, it seems as if all future marine books will follow suit. And if anything, the Loyalist dogs SHOULD be better equipped than we are.

 

And we'll still beat the crap out of them.

No, they should be worse since most of them are extremely inflexible due to having to adhere to the Codex Astartes, something we fuel our bonfires with :P

 

TDA

 

Also, let us not forget that they have Techmarines, who upbraid them constantly for casting aside the Holy Boltgun into the Profane Mud of the Battlefield, and will hear no excuses about "fighting for our lives against ravening orks". Chaos Marines aren't quite so superstitious about their weapons - presumably they can drop their bolter for a few minutes...

[Storm Hunter]

Also they get land speeders which i know suck quite a bit but they are really handy if you want to bring down something quite big thanks to a multi melta and they can have heavy bolters as well. Actually now that i think about most of the loyalist stuff that chaos don get is pretty much useless anyway. Whirlwinds are ok but speeders can be brought down by bolters from all sides.

[TheDarkApostle]

Sonsoftaurus' post was really very cool, I thought.

 

There's a .PDF on the Specialist-Games site for representing Chaos Marines in games of Inquisitor. Here's an extract which might prove useful for this discussion:

 

My last breath won't be for the likes of you: Chaos Marines don't have a cause to die for. Their cause is staying alive with as much power as possible. Therefore it's more likely they will retreat when their life is in danger, rather than fight to their last.

 

A contract is worth nothing unless written in blood: Not one to go out of their way to help others, a Chaos Marine is likely to leave an ally to die unless they have a really, really good reasonto help.

 

I do agree with some of the assertions in this thread that the hardcore zealots (like the Word Bearers) and the cult troopers would likely have a different outlook to some of the different Legions and Renegade warbands, though.

Hehe, but one could quite surely assume that the Inquisitor Chaos Marines are almost diffenitly supposed to be renegades and not true Legionnares? ;)

 

TDA

[Contaminus]

However, in the commentary on the new Chaos Space Marine book, the devs were talking about how it was silly for any marine to go into battle without all 3-- bolter, CC, and bolt pistol. From the way they were talking about it, it seems as if all future marine books will follow suit. And if anything, the Loyalist dogs SHOULD be better equipped than we are.

 

And we'll still beat the crap out of them.

No, they should be worse since most of them are extremely inflexible due to having to adhere to the Codex Astartes, something we fuel our bonfires with :rolleyes:

 

TDA

 

Actually, the whole point of the CA is to provide tactics and strategies for every military situation Guilliman could think of. Thus it has something for every eventuality: pretty flexible if you ask me. :P

 

As for the bolter, bolt pistol and ccw. Would that not make assault marines just normal marines without a bolter and with a jump pack instead?

[TheDarkApostle]

Actually, the whole point of the CA is to provide tactics and strategies for every military situation Guilliman could think of. Thus it has something for every eventuality: pretty flexible if you ask me. :P

Then could you explain why it doesn't contain the tactic of planting meltabombs and then detonating them with krak-grenades or with a plasma shot? :rolleyes:

 

TDA

[Khestra the Unbeheld]

As for the bolter, bolt pistol and ccw. Would that not make assault marines just normal marines without a bolter and with a jump pack instead?

 

Just like Raptors.

[Lord Ragnarok]

Its because SM have a toltal faith in the All father. they do not fear death for the do the Emperors biding. Csm do not have this level of fate exept maybe for the word bearers. That one of the reason but the main one is for game balance.

 

 

It always make me laugh that Wolves (which space wolves especially 13th company can take) have ATSKNF.

 

Why would this make you laugh? Wolves have as much loyalty for the All Father as they do to Russ. In terms of the 13th I think they go beyond ATSKNF. Being in the warp alone for 10k years would make you have tougher stuff than ATSKNF.

[Loketh]

However, in the commentary on the new Chaos Space Marine book, the devs were talking about how it was silly for any marine to go into battle without all 3-- bolter, CC, and bolt pistol. From the way they were talking about it, it seems as if all future marine books will follow suit. And if anything, the Loyalist dogs SHOULD be better equipped than we are.

 

And we'll still beat the crap out of them.

No, they should be worse since most of them are extremely inflexible due to having to adhere to the Codex Astartes, something we fuel our bonfires with :P

 

TDA

 

Also, let us not forget that they have Techmarines, who upbraid them constantly for casting aside the Holy Boltgun into the Profane Mud of the Battlefield, and will hear no excuses about "fighting for our lives against ravening orks". Chaos Marines aren't quite so superstitious about their weapons - presumably they can drop their bolter for a few minutes...

 

Isn't that why guns have shoulder straps on them? Sling 'em up and bring out the chainswords baby!

[Brother Nihm]

I thin that the reason why chaos don't have and they shall know no fear (:lol: know no) is because they already have ld 9 and the aspiring champions have a leadership 10 which is the same as a space marine commander. Still they took away our veteran skills so we should get something in return.

Chaos does get something. Its called icon of chaos glory and the ability to have a bolter and 2 close combat weapons.

 

So, when the Loyalist SMs get the bolter + BP + CCW combo, does that mean the scale is balanced? :D

Based on BA and DA, loyalists will only get bolter and bolt pistol, not all three.

Based on recent SM redux rumours it looks like they will indeed get Bolter + Bp + CCw.

As for the original topic, I think that the extract from Inquisitor describes the general CSMs feelings best.

There's bound to be zealots and cowards and they all fall under the scope of those two points.

[DeathsHead]

Based on recent SM redux rumours it looks like they will indeed get Bolter + Bp + CCw....

 

Man... that SUCKS. Now with our half-baked Codex, we're even less distinct from normal marines and don't have that little edge over them in CC.