Ork Woes...Anyone els having lots of trouble?!

[Brother Eleysium]

I am a what I would consider a pretty decent 40K player. Usually when I go to tournaments I have a winning record, and a lot of times I am fortunate to place. But, with the release of the new Ork Codex I have seemingly not been able to compete with them. I am currently 1 win and 5 losses against the new orks, and it is to the point of where its just not fun anymore. I am not trying to rant or complaing and I intend to explain why, so please don't think that. It doesn't really seem to matter what I try.

 

I typically run my armies with lots of Missile Launchers, Heavy Bolters, and some pretty mobile beefy Close Combat squads to support them. I have tried to set up the gun line of death and whittle the orks down before they get there, I have tried to play a refused flank, and everytime they seem to get to me and chew me up. They almost always seem to get to me within 2-3 turns which leaves me a couple of rounds of shooting max. Or, Snikrot assaults off of the table edge and ties up my Devastators until the rest and supporting squads until the rest of the Ork Horde gets to me. It is to the point that I just do not want to play Orks anymore because I am so frustrated. I really need your help brothers because I have never had this much trouble with Orks before.

[mukluk]

First off, it appears you are bringing the right tools -- missle launchers, heavy bolters and lots and lots of bolters. So here are a few questions:

 

1 - what points level do you typically play?

2 - what is your typical list build?

3 - what were the biggest differences between the 1 win and the other loses? Was it a fluke? Did your opponent deploy poorly?

[Master Incarias]

Orks. The thing to try against them (it works for me) is to bottleneck them. Make sure as small a number of Boys as possible can actually fight you. Trying to shoot them down is all well and good, but as you say, a Marine army won't have the time to actually kill everything off with shooting. Try taking down the absolute monster units, the Walkers, and the fast stuff. The big mobs, well, you simply can't kill all of them. Try reducing them to the point where you can deal with a single mob.

 

It is worth noting that Orks benefit greatly from getting the charge in. If you can, take that advantage away. Use your fast units to launch assaults in places where they block the advance of other mobs, if possible, to buy some time.

 

Never, ever, assault a full-strength Slugga Mob. Even your dedicated assault units can put out an absolute maximum of 40 attacks. Not enough to kill 30 Orks. However, if you can pull off a simultaneous charge from two or more squads, preferably with a Chaplain in one, and against a slightly shot-up mob, you can kill every single Ork before they get to hit you back, or at least kill the Engaged models. Remember what your guys are better at, and use that. We've got I4. We've got Power Armour. We've got Bolters. Remember firing those Bolt Pistols!

 

Dreadnoughts are also fun, especially against mobs with no Power Klaws (Shoota Mobs, for example), as they have nothing that can take down a Dread.

 

I'm sorry if this is basic, but they're things that work for me. You'll love the face an Ork player makes when an Assault Squad and Veteran Squad eat one of his mobs in combat...

 

Oh, and if you can get behind his army, you'll cause all kinds of trouble for him, as he tries to decide whther to give you another turn of shooting or leave an Assault Squad behind him.

[Brother Eleysium]

Orks. The thing to try against them (it works for me) is to bottleneck them. Make sure as small a number of Boys as possible can actually fight you. Trying to shoot them down is all well and good, but as you say, a Marine army won't have the time to actually kill everything off with shooting. Try taking down the absolute monster units, the Walkers, and the fast stuff. The big mobs, well, you simply can't kill all of them. Try reducing them to the point where you can deal with a single mob.

 

It is worth noting that Orks benefit greatly from getting the charge in. If you can, take that advantage away. Use your fast units to launch assaults in places where they block the advance of other mobs, if possible, to buy some time.

 

Never, ever, assault a full-strength Slugga Mob. Even your dedicated assault units can put out an absolute maximum of 40 attacks. Not enough to kill 30 Orks. However, if you can pull off a simultaneous charge from two or more squads, preferably with a Chaplain in one, and against a slightly shot-up mob, you can kill every single Ork before they get to hit you back, or at least kill the Engaged models. Remember what your guys are better at, and use that. We've got I4. We've got Power Armour. We've got Bolters. Remember firing those Bolt Pistols!

 

Dreadnoughts are also fun, especially against mobs with no Power Klaws (Shoota Mobs, for example), as they have nothing that can take down a Dread.

 

I'm sorry if this is basic, but they're things that work for me. You'll love the face an Ork player makes when an Assault Squad and Veteran Squad eat one of his mobs in combat...

 

Oh, and if you can get behind his army, you'll cause all kinds of trouble for him, as he tries to decide whther to give you another turn of shooting or leave an Assault Squad behind him.

 

Thanks for the tips brother. I will definately have to try some of this. So you think that it is worth putting in an Assault Squad or a Veteran Squad with a Chaplain to Counter Assault the whittled down mobs?

 

What about the freaking units that can deep strike and Assault, and the units that can come off of my table edge and Assault?

[Brother Drakk]

Take the assault marines for a counter attack option. Against orks, it's imperative that you take the charge (i'm sure i don't have to explain this). Having that 18'' charge radius means a lot. Also, vets are more useful when tooled up with lightning claws etc. Against hoard armies, you want quantity over quality. Power weapons count for little against orks with 6+ armor saves.

 

As for the deep strike units, there really isn't much you can do about that. I'd advise you to keep you army spread out as possible, but close enough to support each other. More than 6'' is important, cause if you're closer than that, orks can easily consolidate into you. Keep within 12'' however, so you can charge into combat to save your devastators etc.

[Sons of Horus]

take anything with flamer or inferno in it :D roast ork mmmm my favorite.

[Brother Vyze]

One or two ten-man Assauult squads with two Flamers will chew up his Boyz. The Missile Launcher and Heavy Bolters are good against orks (but you must know that already). Maybe a Whirlwind if you have one.

 

There really isn't much you can do about Snikrot except leave him only small squads that he would wipe out in combat for him to assault. It might not seem like a good idea to begin with but if you can get him to charge one of your five-man units, there will be a good chance he will be exposed. A good player won't do this but it is all I can think of.

[Whoopxi]

Snikrot is best delt with if he comes into the game early on since he is less likely to have any support at that point.

 

Also if you are aware he is around it is very helpful to bait him with something juicy (like a devastator squad) and have something nearby to counter assault with, such as jump troops. Remember that the only REALLY dangerous members of his squad to marines are the burnas since they can be power weapons.

 

 

The times where he really hurt me is when it took him forever to come onto the board... you can only set a trap for so long before you need to use those troops to deal with the rest of the green tide coming your way.

[Brother Eleysium]

Thanks for all of the replies guys, I do appreciate the input. I will definately throw in the Assault Squads with Flamers. I usually run them with Plasma Pistols, but what you guys have brought up gives me something to think about. I guess I will just have to keep using different units and strategies until I find one that I really like, or one that is really effective.

 

Not trying to start a rant or anything, but does anyone else find the Deepstriking and then assaulting units, and or Snikrot a bit cheap?

[Contaminus]

At a risk of repeating what's already been said and sounding like a fool (I haven't read the whole thread yet), I tend to find any weapon with an area of effect does wonders against orks. Try to keep them at arm's length if you can and split their force into weaker and easier to manage chunks of green. The less orks you're trying to deal with at a time, the better. Make the most of the terrain and if you get the choice over what battlefield you play on I would choose an urban scene. Narrow streets and doorways are such fun for methodically hunting down and scorching greenskins. Anyone for kebabs? :)

[Brother Drakk]

Isn't a 75 points HQ that gives ld 10 to every sm on the board a bit cheap? We take it as a given. In orks eyes, it's pretty damn cheap. It's all relative. Snikrot is just an element of an orc army that makes it appealing. You have to remember though, nothing is really imbalanced in war 40k (except maybe the all 4 stat line of sms for 15 points). Each element has its strength and weaknesses. Imagine what use snikrot would be against a zilla nid army

[Brother Eleysium]

Isn't a 75 points HQ that gives ld 10 to every sm on the board a bit cheap? We take it as a given. In orks eyes, it's pretty damn cheap. It's all relative. Snikrot is just an element of an orc army that makes it appealing. You have to remember though, nothing is really imbalanced in war 40k (except maybe the all 4 stat line of sms for 15 points). Each element has its strength and weaknesses. Imagine what use snikrot would be against a zilla nid army

 

So you are saying that Space Marines are unbalanced for their price? Gotcha.... Let me guess you must not be a Space Marine player, right?

[Master Incarias]

I think the argument is that there are things in every army that are a bit better against some enemies than their points really warrant. Snikrot might be scary against some armies, while against others he would be all but useless. 12 Heavy Bolters would be devestating against Orks, but actually useless against an Armoured Company. That's the way the game works.

[Zomro]

Not trying to start a rant or anything, but does anyone else find the Deepstriking and then assaulting units, and or Snikrot a bit cheap?

 

Well, these things do come with a price. If Zagstruk assaults the turn he deep strikes, he automatically loses d3 of his Boyz. Also, he has to risk deep striking that close to an enemy unit, he has to get within 6 inches. Yes, I do admit that it's a potent ability, especially when mixed with his wargear (regular initiative PF on the charge). But, in the grand scheme of things, he's very expensive for an ork, same thing for Snikrot.

[Brother Vyze]

I think the argument is that there are things in every army that are a bit better against some enemies than their points really warrant. Snikrot might be scary against some armies, while against others he would be all but useless. 12 Heavy Bolters would be devestating against Orks, but actually useless against an Armoured Company. That's the way the game works.

Thats why me, and some others, only stick to generals. I use 2 flamer Assault in my all-comers list, but I digress.

 

I would like to echo Incarias here, you shouldn't have to build you list specificaly against Orks to beat them.

 

Honestly I don't have enough experience with the new orks to help you tactics wise, but if you bottle them up you should be able to shoot them up good. To do that I would create a 'path' for you opponent to move his Orks. What I mean by this is leave an expensive unit (Command Squad, Terminators, ect.) somewhat exposed.

 

Deploy your Master at 12" or some thing else, away from cover. Your opponent might be inclined to send the bulk of his force away from this unit, in which case he will bottle himself up on either side of the table. Or, more likley, he would send the bulk of his troops or his own expensive units towards your 'exposed' unit. Now you have a large or expensive chunck of your opponents army headed to a destination that you chose for him.

 

Unless you opponent has nearby Death Choppas or deployed bikes directly in front of you unit, your unit should be fine. Move that unit out of the way, move the rest of you nearby guys in and you should have a good shot at removing the head or destroying the body of the snake.

 

The key to this is deception and timing. You have to make you opponent belive that you made an honest mistake, and that he should exploit it. You also need to time when to spring you trap. Too soon and he can divert his forces elsewhere with out wasting much time. Too late and you unit is going to get pulped because you went able to do enough damage quick enough.

 

Good Luck

[Brother Drakk]

I'm a space marine player btw... Always was, and probably always will be. But seriously, 15 points for straight 4 stats... it'd damn good

[Wildfire]

Do a search. There's been plenty of threads on this. Personally, I think whoever wrote this one is a genius!

[Cairnius]

I am now both an Ork and a Space Marine player...I'll share what wisdom I can...

 

1 - Set up in a corner. Seriously. Orks are just as bad as 'Nids now, I think, and that's how I deploy against 'Nids generally-speaking...

 

An Ork army with a Warphead can Waaagh! on Turn 1 if they get lucky with their two d6 rolls for powers. An Ork army with Gazhghull automatically gets that 6" on the fleet move from Turn 2 on. You HAVE to deny them that early charge so that you can follow through with advice #2:

 

 

2 - Take advantage of the Orks' biggest weakness - Ld. Having played Marines for two years before starting up my Ork army, I had no idea just how lucky I was with the Marines per being able to pretty much ignore every Ld-related rule in the game. Target priority? Pah! Psychic checks? Lol! Falling back? Feh!

 

Not so with my Orks. It's why I take 25- and 30-Boy Shoota Mobs. "Oh, you killed 10 Orks? That's okay. I have twice that many still charging you next turn, and we're Fearless."

 

You should have two turns of shooting. If you are facing a Speed Freeks army then you have fewer models to face, and as a Marine player I certainly hope you have enough anti-armor to make a mess of their paper Trukks and Warbuggies. Bikes are another thing altogether, of course...stupid 4+ cover saves. And Gork forbid they're Nobz on bikes with a Painboy...

 

But let's assume you're facing an infantry-heavy Goff army like mine. Turn 1 - choose an Ork mob. Make it a smaller one. Shoot it with everything you can until they're below 11 models. Check to see who else has to shoot and determine whether it's worth shooting them once more, or whether you have enough units left to take another Ork unit down below 11.

 

Force those Ld checks. EVERY time you can. Concentrate your firepower and you may be able to send two or more Mobs running away before they get into CC with you.

 

 

3 - On charging - Yes, deny them the charge every time you can, but don't plan on it. Be taking large units such that you can survive the charge because in 5th Ed the Ork player can take the casualties from anywhere in the unit, so forget about kill zones getting emptied and saving you from reprisal after you get your higher-I attacks first. You WILL get a fistfull of dice thrown at you on that charge.

 

You need large units to make sure you survive multiple CC rounds because you will almost always win the combat against Ork mobs. Even with my huge Goff mobs I can't believe how often I lose my combats. This is also why whittling them down through shooting is SO important. If you're in a situation where you don't have enough firepower to effectively whittle down any Mobs before they get to you and have to split the fire evenly, choose the two or three Mobs that will hit you first and focus on them.

 

When they finally do charge you, even with their Furious Charge you're going to deny them attacks from that charge by going first, and you're probably going to win that combat. Against Goff players this will be more challenging, but against 10-15 Ork Mobs you may very well send them running after that first turn of combat. Hence you need large units to make sure you get two or three chances to force Ork Ld checks when they lose their combats.

 

 

4 - Space out your squads. There's no more consolidating into new combats in 5th - so even if the Ork player does wipe out your squad, you massacre them the turn following with the bolters sitting right in front of them in rapid fire range.

 

It's going to become VERY important for Ork players to hit the entire enemy line all at once in 5th, which makes it even more important for you to concentrate on a unit or two in your two turns of shooting and send those Boyz running, thus making it much more difficult for the Ork player to hit your whole line at once.

[Commander Gitsnik]

No mention of template death? Where's the vindicator?

 

Even if it doesn't get on target the sheer size of an ork squad suggests you're probably not going to miss anyway. I used to run in fear of vindicator template death when I was playing Orks (my first army - such fond memories).

 

I'm not entirely familiar with the new rules but can the Orks be pinned by, say, sniper rifles now-a-days?

[Brother Drakk]

Personally, if you're up against orks, keep the vindi home and bring on the whirlwind. When you're up against orks, they're not going to be charging into your face (although i have seen some people do this), they'll be hugging cover etc. The ability to shoot anything behind cover is really useful. And also, having to be 12'' to fire places a vindi in a vulnerable position. It's only a matter of time before so many rockets blow you sky high.

[Grindgodgrind]

Attack Bikes are good against Orks. They become an incredibly survivable heavy bolter platform. Plus, in a fix, they're good as a tarpit.

[Cairnius]

No mention of template death? Where's the vindicator?

 

Even if it doesn't get on target the sheer size of an ork squad suggests you're probably not going to miss anyway. I used to run in fear of vindicator template death when I was playing Orks (my first army - such fond memories).

 

I'm not entirely familiar with the new rules but can the Orks be pinned by, say, sniper rifles now-a-days?

 

Well, I was giving more general tactics. Regardless of what weapons you have, I think I've laid out how you want to use them.

 

It's mostly about taking advantage of the low Ld. You HAVE to break those Mobs as early as possible.

[Askari]

Focus your Troops fire power on one unit at a time. Whittle down the large mobs to about 10 or so then move on to the next unit. Try to pop trukks and stormboyz quickly but don't let them distract you. You have to concentrate your fire power if you want to beat orks.

 

Getting orks to waste their waagh early on by using a sacrificial unit is always a good idea. When they get within range of your tac squads move up and rapid fire them to hell. Have assault marines positioned about 10 inches off so that once the orks assault you you can counter charge them in the rear away from their powerklaw. Or position small las plas squads up front and rapid fir the orks to hell and have another tactical squad sitting about eight inches behind them so that they can either counter charge or fire into the orks once they win the combat.

 

Ork dreadnoughts aren't too scary since the most commonly used ones Kanz only have Ws2 and are mainly used for shooting. They can easily be taken out by devastators.

[The Mangler]

I thought of an idea that might be really good for orks.

You put a squad of 10 burna boys in a battle wagon.

They can move 12 and all shoot their burnas out the side or if they need to they can charge out of it with their power weapons.

 

With 5th edition the open topped vehicle rules might change, but I am not sure.

In the new edition you could just put them in a truck bought for a large slugga boy squad which would make it very cheap to do....

good thing you we do not have to worry about that yet.

[Kaptain Von]

Also, Orks hate power weapons. Power weapons strike before Orks and carve up expensive units like Meganobz quick as winking. I have come to dread the lightning clawed Terminators with attached Chaplain (it's rerolltastic!), who are quite capable of pummelling any Ork unit that comes within arm's reach.

 

What else? The Whirlwind is a holy terror for them, as ever, although you say you're having Snikrot problems so that limits its ability to hide at the back somewhat. You might consider sticking your Whirlwind in one corner and your Devastators in the other; Snikrot can't come on everywhere, and the Ork player will have to divert resources to handle whichever one Snikrot doesn't go for. The one thing you don't want to do is jam the back end of the Whirlwind right into the table corner where he can't get to it; that makes the Devastators a more viable target, rendering the decision moot. Not a good thing when you're trying to force a choice.

 

Askari gives some good advice on how to waste the Waaagh and minimise the damage done when it hits. Spacing your squads out is crucial - create dead ground that the Orks will have to Waaagh to cross, and create multiple areas of it. I'd go so far as to suggest sending out something tough like those cursed Assault Terminators to fight a forlorn hope, slowing down the Orks and preventing them from mobbing you all at once.

 

The key to beating your Invincible Foe - whatever that Invincible Foe might be - is to force choices, to make sure it can't waste you in all the ways it wants to. With Orks, that means forcing them to split up and making sure their once-in-a-blue-moon advantages (the Waaagh, Lootas rolling a 3 for their number of shots, rokkit launchas actually hitting anything) can't benefit all of them at once. If the Lootas' fire lanes are clogged with ongoing combats, those 36 shots might be wasted on the lone surviving Terminator who's the only thing they can see. If Snikrot has to choose between the corner where your Devastators live and the one with the Whirlwind in it, you'll still have something to shoot. If there's eight inches between the Terminators - your forlorn hope - and the front line, and another eight between that and your firepower units, the Ork player is reduced to playing Keep-Going-Forward-Don't-Get-Killed-Hammer, hoping enough of their vest-clad bullet-catchers survive to make an impact.

 

Ork players do not like playing that game.

 

I don't advocate hunkering down in a corner and trying to form a firebase, because the Ork player will just keep feeding his superior numbers into that quagmire, and if he does break through he'll probably chew through you in short order. It's far better to make the blighter sweat for three turns and then see the look on his face when he realises that you have three other concentrations of units that he's barely been able to touch yet.