New to 40k, might start with CSM

[Skarin]

Hi guys. I've played fantasy on and off for a while now, and after recently attempting to start again, I decided I want a change. I've never played 40k before, so I've been doing some reading and research for a while now, and the only two armies I really like the themes for are SM and CSM. However, CSM look a lot nicer (if evil can be classed as nice! :P ) than SM, and have some unique units that make the army seem more exciting, so I'm thinking of starting with the bad guys.

 

So, after a long and boring introduction, here's some questions for you lot to answer:

 

• Are there any major drawbacks in choosing CSM as a starting army?
  
• Have Daemons ruined CSM, like they did for Fantasy HoC?
  
• Are they harder to play with than SM?
  
• On Army Builder, it says that Terminator Lords are independant characters. Does this mean I can't have one join a Terminator unit?
  
• Are Defilers as good as they look?
  
• CSM won't be getting a new book this year, right?
  

 

Thanks for any help. :D

[Tfcdogbert]

1) Not really, basic CSM is the best all round trooper in the game, can kick up close with BP/CCW and has a higher LD than his loyalist counterpart basic and has a bolter to boot, and they can do pretty much everything as a side.

2) Nope, they are useful just not the same role as before.

3) Matter of opinion, i didnt find them hard when i first started.

4) Nope, all IC's can join a unit.

5) I love them, cheap battlecannon that looks kickass, discourages deep striking terminators and wont stop firing unless someone destroys it or blows the cannon off.

6) Nope.

 

Congratulations on your choice, welcome to the winning side :D.

[Brother Nihm]

Hey and welcome to the BnC,

 

 

* Are there any major drawbacks in choosing CSM as a starting army?

Not at all, SM armies - be they loyalist or CSM can be quite forgiving due to them having power armour and solid leadership.

 

* Have Daemons ruined CSM, like they did for Fantasy HoC?

Nope, Daemons are a standalone list, many wish that Daemon elements had been properly introduced into the CSM codex though (they are generic lesser or greater daemons in there)

 

* Are they harder to play with than SM?

Personally I don't think so, there's more options and more interesting (read shiny!) units to choose from but I think they're quite similar, odd units like defilers, oblits and cult squads excluded. Chaos lists are most often tooled for close combat whereas loyalists are often gunline oriented.

 

* On Army Builder, it says that Terminator Lords are independant characters. Does this mean I can't have one join a Terminator unit?

You can join him to a squad once the game has started, sadly this means he cannot deepstrike with another squad (I guess he could if you made the reserve roll for both units in the same turn, and they deepstruck next to eachother..)

 

* Are Defilers as good as they look?

That depends on their role within your list, I find them to be fire magnets and best used in pairs.

 

* CSM won't be getting a new book this year, right?

Not from what I've heard.

 

 

Also, you may want to take a look at these two topics:

link

link

 

There's good stuff in there.

[chillin]

- No there are no draw back in stsrting a csm army

- No, daemons didn't ruin. We can't have specific kinds of daemons now, our daemon are generic.

I still think they are useful, others might disagree. But you can run a csm army just fine w/out them. I have no idea what happened in WHFB, so can't compair.

- No csm are not harder to play then s/m. They have some advantages over us, we have some advantages over them, (like it should be). Players being fairly equal s/m vs chaos is a good hard fought game on both sides.

- All chaos lords and sorcs are IC, they can join any unit they want, but the unit does not count as a proper retinue, lord can not be shot at but can be singled out in hth. As for termi lord and termi unit, they might come in at different times if you deep strike, but I think rumor is that will change w/ 5th ed. rules, which are basicly hitting shelves as we speak.

- No, defilers are not as good as they look, well they are that good if you can keep them alive. But the don't have great armor, so can't be taken out w/ hvy weops fairly easlily. They might get better in 5th , as vehicle damage rules are changing.

- No, we will not get a new dex for at least 2 years (probably more), we just got a new dex @ a year ago.

*

Welcome to chaos (if you decide to go that way), and the B&C.

[Skarin]

Thanks for the quick replies. I've read the two articles, they're very helpful. I won't be getting a rulebook until the new one comes out, so I have a very loose idea of the various rules. However, I understand what you mean about the Terminators and Lord, but on AB the Lord doesn't have the Deep Strike ability. Could someone help me out here?

 

I'm producing a (very bad) army list at the moment, and as I've been looking around the forums, it seems important to have transport for basic troops in 40k, am I correct?

 

I'll probably also take a Defiler just for an army centerpiece and fluff, as you guys have mixed opinions!

[Tfcdogbert]

Its debatable on its importance, it depends on a lot of things, the size of board you play on, my GW has 48 inches so i dont often use transports, but on 60 inchers (which are far better to play on IMO) transports for objective siezing are essential.

 

Rhinos are quite delicate, so there are some armies you just don't want to take them against, Tau being the main one really because even their basic gun can knock one out, but that said, 50 points and it can shield your men from fire, tank shock nasty units out the way, get blown up and become cover and block fire lanes, so they are versatile tools especially with extra armor.

 

But in all it depends on what kind of list your playing, with 5th ed they might get more or less important, infantry can run, but tanks get a little tougher apparently (to take 2 rumors), and with troops as your only units that can take objectives it will be important to get your troops where you want them to go quickly, (to take another).

 

Really it depends on the style of list, if you put an army list up more relavent advice can be applied directly to what your thinking.

 

The lord cant deepstrike unless he has a jump pack or wings if i remember right, although if you were asking something slightly different sorry, ^_^.

[flintlocklaser]

However, I understand what you mean about the Terminators and Lord, but on AB the Lord doesn't have the Deep Strike ability. Could someone help me out here?

 

In the CSM codex, under the "Wargear" section, the description for Terminator armor does indeed list Deep Striking. So while Army Builder might not have it listed when you buy Termie armor for your Lord/Sorcerer, the codex itself does.

[Skarin]

Okay, so again transport is a personal choice thing really. I guess that I could just wait until 5th edition is on the shelves until I get most of the army. Thanks for clarifying the Lord thing as well, makes sense.

[Hlakir]

I have no idea what happened in WHFB, so can't compair.

 

What happened in WHFB was that the Hordes of Chaos book was taken out of play when the Daemons book was released (since it contained both Mortal and ("real") Daemon units, unlike the Daemons in Codex: Chaos Space Marines). The Mortal Chaos army recive a get-you-by army list in the June issue of White Dwarf so that there is an army list to play with until the new Mortal Chaos book comes out.

[Kaptain Von]

Are there any major drawbacks in choosing CSM as a starting army?

 

Nope. Nifty plastic kits make conversions and kitbashing ever so ever so easy, the paint schemes can be as complicated - or not - as you like and they're not too bad tactically, although every army has access to something that can rip through a Chaos Space Marine squad pretty effortlessly at range. That 3+ save isn't as good as it used to be. They're still pretty competent in combat and the heavier stuff - Terminators, Obliterators, Land Raiders &c. - is still perfectly fine.

 

Have Daemons ruined CSM, like they did for Fantasy HoC?

 

Nope. There are plenty of things that people gripe about with the new Codex, but I don't think Codex: Daemons existing as a separate entity is connected to too many of them. See next, though...

 

Are they harder to play with than SM?

 

Not exactly. The Space Marines, in general, have slightly better stuff. We have Reaper Autocannons (good but not brilliant), they have Assault Cannons (so brilliant that they make other options obsolete). We have Daemon Princes (rock hard but can't join a unit, so they're easily isolated), they have Chaplains (benefit the unit they're accompanying, and being hidden in a unit makes them harder to target). Their Librarians can reroll any die that directly affects them, our Sorcerers can reroll their own Hit and Wound rolls and nothing more (though admittedly ours have the most broken-good psychic power in the game in Lash of Submission). They have a Chapter Trait system granting them incredibly wide access to special rules for most of their infantry, we have Infiltration. On one unit. Not that I'm bitter or anything. Expect this to change when the new Space Marine Codex comes out.

 

They also have some unit types - artillery that can fire over terrain and flying vehicles - that we don't. In theory, our daemons and Chaos Spawn are the tradeoff for this. In theory.

 

On Army Builder, it says that Terminator Lords are independant characters. Does this mean I can't have one join a Terminator unit?

 

An Independent Character may join any unit it wishes to, by and large. So yes, it can.

I'd add that Army Builder and like programs are frankly Not Very Good, often paraphrasing or omitting aspects of the rules.

 

Are Defilers as good as they look?

 

Frankly? No. They're not bad, but that's not the question you asked. They look awesome: they are effective but much more fragile than anything that size should be. And they're in the same section of the army list as Obliterators and the Vindicator. They're going to struggle.

 

CSM won't be getting a new book this year, right?

 

Not unless we all gang up on Jervis and force him to write one.

[chaosmarine234]

Hi guys. I've played fantasy on and off for a while now, and after recently attempting to start again, I decided I want a change. I've never played 40k before, so I've been doing some reading and research for a while now, and the only two armies I really like the themes for are SM and CSM. However, CSM look a lot nicer (if evil can be classed as nice! :P ) than SM, and have some unique units that make the army seem more exciting, so I'm thinking of starting with the bad guys.

 

So, after a long and boring introduction, here's some questions for you lot to answer:

 

• Are there any major drawbacks in choosing CSM as a starting army?
  
• Have Daemons ruined CSM, like they did for Fantasy HoC?
  
• Are they harder to play with than SM?
  
• On Army Builder, it says that Terminator Lords are independant characters. Does this mean I can't have one join a Terminator unit?
  
• Are Defilers as good as they look?
  
• CSM won't be getting a new book this year, right?
  

 

Thanks for any help. :)

 

well done on you for choosing CSM.

 

1. no there is not as you can choose to have a fire base army or a close combat or a Rhino rush.

2. daemons are useless in a CSM army (thats my view anyway).

3. no

4. no they can join any squad but cant join a squad that has a Rhino (they cant fit in).

5. yes if you give them a close combat weapon (which is free)

6. yes

 

hope that has helped and may the Dark Gods smile on you!

[Roultox]

The only drawback in picking any army as a starting army is not thinking it through enough. Like is it what you really want+What kind of fighting force you want+How you want to play+not studying all the armies enough in the game to know you want this one in particular.

 

Chaos has dumbed down daemons, and the daemon codex is only an ally when picked as a second detachment along side your marines, or in Apocalypse. As far as I know, games workshop wanted to enforce a daemon related army in 40k for some time now, and put all the extra units in the game that if it were stuffed into the chaos marine codex, it would be too powerful. I think they did good, just didnt go over too well with the players. (Daemons that are dumbed down have their uses, too)

 

Harder to play, well as long as you realize a few things, such as if you use melee for defense it doesnt need speed, if you use it for offence they need a means to get there faster, shooting needs to be directed at a category of targets and specialised in most cases, durability of a unit and what it should do, and so on. Plan your units and it will work like any other army out there. (Like picking chess pieces for your board)

 

Independant characters *may* join units no matter what the armor is unless described otherwise. May is a key word, yes and no whatever you pick.

 

 

People are biased on Defilers. Good and bad bias, there are few who are in the middle. I like Defilers, I like how I can make use of a large table and force large numbers of anti vehicle to one edge, then mix it up by plopping a defiler at the other end beyond range of most weapons. Either that, or be big brother to some havocs needing some melee guarding. (Like havocs need guarding with their melee ability) So either way, Defilers are a multi-role medium armored vehicle that costs a fair amount of points to reflect that. Your call.

 

Chaos marines are not about getting new looks. They are a scavenging force, renegades, traitors, self sufficient or even secret savants of their patrons within imperial borders. They are what you make them to be. I often see some armies of chaos that consist of loyalist marine bodies with their Aquilla (chest eagle) shaved off. Im guilty of that too myself. You hardly ever see loyalist armies using chaos parts, but chaos can get away using many loyalist marine parts and sprues. So not like they need a new look, right? Chaos entices Conversions more then most armies. On a scale of 1 to 10 on difficulty for simple conversions, chaos rates a 4 to 10. (Tyranids are a 7 to 10 rate, as a comparison) While loyalist marines are also a 4 to 10.

 

Hope I answered things in a different light.

[Skarin]

Thanks for all the replies. I was writing out some fluff and an army list to see what you guys thought of it, when stupid bloody Firefox crashed. :lol:

 

I might as well give you the army list, keep in mind it's based on an extremely long story, so it might not seem like the optimal army to you guys:

 

HQ: Chaos Terminator Lord

Mark of Khorne, Personal Icon, Blood Feeder, Combi-plasma

 

165

 

ELITE: 4 Terminators

Icon of Khorne, 4 Power Fists, 3 Combi-plasma, Heavy Flamer

Champion with pair of Lightning Claws

 

260

 

TROOPS: 7 Marines

Plasmagun, Rhino

Aspiring Champion with Bolt Pistol, Power Fist, Combi-plasma

 

220

 

TROOPS: 7 Marines

Meltagun, Rhino

Aspiring Champion with Bolt Pistol, Power Fist, Combi-melta

 

215

 

TROOPS: 7 Khorne Berzerkers

Rhino

Skull Champion with Power Fist

 

222

 

FAST ATTACK: 5 Raptors

2 Meltaguns

 

120

 

HEAVY SUPPORT: Defiler

 

150

 

HEAVY SUPPORT: 5 Havocs

Lascannon, Missile Launcher, 2 Autocannons

 

170

 

That's 1522 points., I'll try and get it to 1500 by getting rid of some stuff. What do you guys think?

[Tfcdogbert]

Well i can assist you with the points cutting, i assume your going for fluffy khorne with all the 8 squad sizes?

 

That havoc squad, drop the lascannon for a second missile, and add another 3 bodies for ablative wounds, its job with that loadout should be medium armour and monstrous creatures, leave heavy armour to your raptors or men with meltas.

 

Those terminators, you dont want that many fists, your main advantage is you strike at initiative, against loyalists this is a huge advantage and you do not want to throw it away, dump all the fists and have 1 chainfist to carve open tanks this should free up the points for the havocs.

 

The khorne lord, bloodfeeder is a gamble, you have 2 dice and if you roll a 1 on either, you lose all your attacks and take a wound, i would personally take an undivided lord if your going with terminator armour, but sticking with fluffy khorne then a pair of lightning claws, this should save enough to take you below 1.5k, if it isnt drop the combi plasma on him too, he wants to get stuck in, and those terminators have enough to soften the enemy up before the charge, you dont want to wipe them out because then your stuck in the open with everything and everyone shooting at you.

 

But youve assembled it quite well, compensating nicely for the 8 man squad size with combi weapons on the champions, everyone has a role and you have enough to do all the jobs and do them well.

[Skarin]

Thanks. For once I did a pretty good job at a first time army list, and I don't even have any of the books! ;)

 

Yeah, fluffy Khorne is basically the idea. I was going to have the Termie Lord Deep Strike in, and then guide the Termies in with him. But this might be a bit of a gamble, so should I give the Icon to the Berzerkers instead? Then I could guide the Lord and Termies in, which would be great support for the Berzerkers, and the Rhino could give the Deep Striking units cover.

 

Now, onto the changes. Should I give the Terminator Champion the Chainfist, since he'll have an extra attack? Then the rest of the squad has Power Weapons. I don't know about the Blood Feeder, as this was going to be part of the fluff. One question, since I don't have the codex, does the Lord get saves against this wound?

 

I'll sort out these changes, they should give me enough points for the extra Havocs.

[Tfcdogbert]

You can take the 5+ invulnerable against it, its potentially lethal with a possible 16 attacks on the charge but roughly 1/3rd of the time youll do nothing.

[Skarin]

You can take the 5+ invulnerable against it, its potentially lethal with a possible 16 attacks on the charge but roughly 1/3rd of the time youll do nothing.

 

I think I'll take the risk with the Blood Feeder. What do you think of the Deep Strike tactic?

[Roultox]

There are no saves taken against Daemon Weapon rolls of a 1.

 

32% chance the bloodfeeder does not attack and you take a wound.

Chance for 12 attacks on charge, 41%. (its still a good option irregardless, more dice, more risk)

[Tfcdogbert]

You can take invulnerable's, as in the text it says no armor saves, implying you can take your 5+ inv because it isn't an armour save.

 

Deep striking is valid enough, i would personally keep the 2 seperate, the lord is big enough to wipe out an aassault unit on his own, and so are the terminators, so id keep them seperate to assist 2 different units if and when they need it, or if your facing tau, (and hence need no assistance at all :P) then deepstrike him to spook their gunline.

[Skarin]

Right, I'll post the new army list in the proper part of the forum, along with my lost fluff to go with it. ;)