Woah, hold up a second...

[Brother Barak]

I must be wrong, it must be something I've missed. Does or does not Codex: Chaos Space Marines not prohibit me from taking a Chaos Lord with the mark of Tzeentch, and joining him up with a unit with an Icon of Khorne? That can't be right, can it? Please tell me he doesn't get the benefit of both marks (as he both has the mark and is part of the unit). I can just imagine these guys sitting in the rhino, staring at him... waiting for him to blink.

[Khestra the Unbeheld]

I must be wrong, it must be something I've missed. Does or does not Codex: Chaos Space Marines not prohibit me from taking a Chaos Lord with the mark of Tzeentch, and joining him up with a unit with an Icon of Khorne? That can't be right, can it? Please tell me he doesn't get the benefit of both marks (as he both has the mark and is part of the unit). I can just imagine these guys sitting in the rhino, staring at him... waiting for him to blink.

 

Join, yes, but the Lord being an IC won't get the Icon benefit, as per the Codex: CSM, pg. 81, under the Squad Icons descriptions. He gets the benefit of his Mark, and that's it.

 

Nice try, though. :)

[Brother Barak]

Ah, yes. Right. So the IC can join the unit, even though he has a different mark to the icon, but doesn't get the benefit of the mark.

[Khestra the Unbeheld]

Ah, yes. Right. So the IC can join the unit, even though he has a different mark to the icon, but doesn't get the benefit of the mark.

 

He gets the benefit of his own Mark; he doesn't get the benefit of the unit's Icon, nor does the unit get the benefit of the Lord's Mark.

[chillin]

Yes the writers of this new dex couldn't be bothered to read any of the previous chaos rules or fluff.

[Senseilord Ashahara]

Or that the mark represents some skill, item of equipment or misc blessing of his God/s.

[Brother Barak]

It is little different to the last 'dex isn't it. The Aspiring Champion of the unit can carry the Icon, right?

[Brother Nihm]

He can, but there are varied opinions on whether this is a good or a bad idea.

 

Debate on that can be found here: link

[Rain]

Slaanesh Lord with Lash:115 Points

 

Khorne Marked Squad to Join Him: 180 Points

 

Mutilating Years of Established Fluff: Priceless

[Khestra the Unbeheld]

Slaanesh Lord with Lash:115 Points

 

Khorne Marked Squad to Join Him: 180 Points

 

Mutilating Years of Established Fluff: Priceless

 

:rolleyes: Guess we really shouldn't set our expectations so high!

[davidren2401]

Guns don't kill people, people kill people. GW have indeed left the door open for you to team up a slaneeshi lord with a khorne squad, but it's up to you to mutilate the fluff by actualy doing it. As far as I'm concerned "Sorcerer's of Tzeentch march shoulder to shoulder with worshipers of Nurgle" is a quote from the old 'dex (black legion fluff section) so this is nothing new.

[chillin]

Guns don't kill people, people kill people. As far as I'm concerned "Sorcerer's of Tzeentch march shoulder to shoulder with worshipers of Nurgle" is a quote from the old 'dex (black legion fluff section) so this is nothing new.

 

Actually it's the bullets.

-

In 3.5 you could have units with a different mark in the same army, you could not have a character with one mark join a unit with a different mark. And even when mixing marks you still had the ancient enemies rule, no slanny in khorn no Tz in Nurgle and vice versa.

[davidren2401]

So the beef isn't with tzeentch slanni lords commanding khorne worshippers, it's with their new found abillity to step within close proxinity and use the servants of khorne as bullet shields?

[Rain]

Actually no, our "beef" is that a Slaanesh lord can command Khorne units, as ancient enemies forbade that. What you are confusing it with is the fact that Black Legion could take both berzerkers and noise marines, but only if the lord himself was undivided.

[davidren2401]

So you're saying that under the 3.5 dex you couldn't have a Slanni lord and bezerkers as Elites?

[chillin]

Correct, you could NOT have a slanny lord and brzrkrs in the army at all.

Much less have a slanny sorc JOIN a squad of brzrkrs like you can now with this "codex".

[davidren2401]

No FREAKIN way! I didnt know that at all. Meh, guess I was arguing under false assumptions then. This Codex does kick the fluff in the nads in ways 3.5 didnt

[Cale]

The old fluff was worse. It was far sillier. The new codex deals with Chaos Marines in a new and far more interesting manner. This book might have crapped on the old fluff, but it is basically better for having done so.

[chillin]

The old fluff was worse. It was far sillier. The new codex deals with Chaos Marines in a new and far more interesting manner. This book might have crapped on the old fluff, but it is basically better for having done so.

-

Well that's your opinion and you are certainly welcome to it but I think the old book was much more interesting with ancient enemies, legion rules, etc then this new "we're one big , happy, cooperitive family" chaos.

[Cleanse And Purify]

>.> I believe we have successfully taken the poor, dead horse and flogged it to the point where it's grandchildren can feel it.

[Cale]

The old fluff was worse. It was far sillier. The new codex deals with Chaos Marines in a new and far more interesting manner. This book might have crapped on the old fluff, but it is basically better for having done so.

-

Well that's your opinion and you are certainly welcome to it but I think the old book was much more interesting with ancient enemies, legion rules, etc then this new "we're one big , happy, cooperitive family" chaos.

 

That's fair. Certainly it has changed, I was merely pointing out that the fact that it changed isn't, in and of itself, bad. I like the change. Sometimes change is good. You might not like the change, but simply pointing out that it goes against established fluff fails to be a worthwhile criticism in and of itself--you have to go further and assign value to the old fluff and the new fluff to evaluate the change.

 

As a side note, I think the vision now is not so much a "big, happy, cooperative family" as a collection of souless, utterly self-centered individuals who will do anything to get what they want--even if it means cooperating for a time with a hated enemy. I prefer the utterly materialistic and mercenary aesthetic to the religious fanatic aesthetic, so I like the new Chaos Marines better--and I think it's important that people be shown that there is a legitimate and worthwhile aesthetic being presented here, even if it does differ from the old one.

 

To hear people like you tell it, there's nothing--no vision, no style, nothing beyond a savage attempt to rip apart the old fluff. That isn't true. The old fluff has been scrapped in several important areas, but it hasn't been replaced by nothing. It's been replaced by an reasonably intelligent and cohesive vision which some of us actually really like--even if you don't. That's all I was trying to get across.

[Lord_Tzeen]

-=Warning, quite a bit of text here=-

 

Just thought i'd put my own opinion in here to continue this discussion.

 

I personally agree with the old fluff, as the idea of a Slaani or Tzeentch lord joining beserker's is utter stupidity. Think about it, these gods are formed of opposites, its stated in Liber Chaotica, its stated in a lot of the old books, and for followers of specific chaos gods to tollerate the presence of followers of their god's opposite doesn't make sense.

 

Beserker's for instance, they're followers of the god dedicated to combat prowess and the hatred of sorcery, and yet those who are his loyal followers can go, "oi, mate, we don't care you believe in our god's enemy, join us, warp-damnit, even hop into our rhino, we don't mind you coming along with your heretical texts and muttering chants that proclaim our god as inferior, and don't worry, we'll follow your orders to the letter, and seriously, we won't try to kill you!"

 

To attempt to add value to thie arguement, consider this, two religious fanatics get in a bus, and sit next to eachother. Their beliefs are literal opposites, their religious beliefs state that their gods are immortal enemies, and they begin to talk to themselves about their beliefs, or go about their rituals IN the bus, are they going to tolerate eachother, considering they're FANATICAL about their beliefs? No, they won't, they'll try to tear eachother a new =][= [CENSORED] =][= as quickly and gorily as possible, while screaming things such as "HERETIC!" or chanting loudly to their god as they make an example of their enemy.

 

I'm all for making an army playable, and making it fun, but an army should also at least include the KEY background points, like i dunno, making it so followers of specific gods can't join the same unit, or that there's some major disadvantage to the player for doing so, like a leadership test each turn with a negative modifier, with the amount they fail it by being the amount of armour saves they have to make? This would keep the fluff alive, while still making it possible for a Slaani / Tzeentch lord to join a Khornate unit, albeit with a risk.

[Cale]

I'm just not sure that's reasonable. I mean, yes. There are individuals who are simply incapable of tolerating members of other opposed religions, but you don't see Christians running around trying to murder Satanists who happen to be on the same bus.

 

Chaos Marines might differ from your average citizen of the world today in some very significant ways--willingess to randomly murder people being one of them--but the fact remains that simply being in the presence of a member of another religion, even an opposed religion, is not sufficient to drive everyone into a killing frenzy. These marines might worship their respective gods, but the primary goal in the mind of just about each and every one is to get himself ahead--to gain more respect, power, money, prestige, immortality, or whatever.

 

They're in it for personal gain. Their gods are a vehicle by which that gain might be accomplished, but, in the majority of cases, the gods aren't much more than that. Berserkers don't kill people for Khorne because they think Khorne is a nice guy and want to make him happy. They heap skulls on the skull throne because they want to be rewarded.

 

Chaos marines are in it for themselves. It makes perfect sense that they'd be willing to cooperate with just about anyone if it would help them meet their ends. It makes far more sense than presuming that they're incapable of sitting in each others' presences without killing each other just because of some religious differences. In fact, we know from the fluff that they don't routinely set about murdering members of the cults of other gods. There's in-fighting and backstabbing, sure, but (short-lived) cooperation among even very disparate factions of Chaos marines is downright common.

 

Your version of the fluff is silly, unappealing, and frankly not very in line with the actual fluff. The version which is presented in the Chaos Codex makes more sense.

[refuse]

The old fluff was worse. It was far sillier. The new codex deals with Chaos Marines in a new and far more interesting manner. This book might have crapped on the old fluff, but it is basically better for having done so.

-

Well that's your opinion and you are certainly welcome to it but I think the old book was much more interesting with ancient enemies, legion rules, etc then this new "we're one big , happy, cooperitive family" chaos.

 

That's fair. Certainly it has changed, I was merely pointing out that the fact that it changed isn't, in and of itself, bad. I like the change. Sometimes change is good. You might not like the change, but simply pointing out that it goes against established fluff fails to be a worthwhile criticism in and of itself--you have to go further and assign value to the old fluff and the new fluff to evaluate the change.

 

As a side note, I think the vision now is not so much a "big, happy, cooperative family" as a collection of souless, utterly self-centered individuals who will do anything to get what they want--even if it means cooperating for a time with a hated enemy. I prefer the utterly materialistic and mercenary aesthetic to the religious fanatic aesthetic, so I like the new Chaos Marines better--and I think it's important that people be shown that there is a legitimate and worthwhile aesthetic being presented here, even if it does differ from the old one.

 

To hear people like you tell it, there's nothing--no vision, no style, nothing beyond a savage attempt to rip apart the old fluff. That isn't true. The old fluff has been scrapped in several important areas, but it hasn't been replaced by nothing. It's been replaced by an reasonably intelligent and cohesive vision which some of us actually really like--even if you don't. That's all I was trying to get across.

20 years of consistent fluff.

20 years of 40k and fantasy agreeing on the intent and purpose of the fluff.

20 years of Chaos self destroying itself, only "uniting" under the most tenuous of circumstances, and only under the strongest leaders.

 

Honestly, I think your statement just made books like Fahrenheit 451, Brave New World and 1984 alot scarrier.

 

You rather not have dark and overt tones of Atlas Shrugged, Plato's Republic and other works of art. You rather have the "Pokemon" flavor of today.

 

Slaanesh Lord: "Khorne beserkers I choose you!"

Khorne Beserkers in a cute 9 year old voice: "Khorne, khorne, khorne".

 

Seriously the Slaves to Darkness, Libera Chaotica (XXXX), dozens of IAs, Fantasy books and more have just been destroyed. Gone is "Chaos as evil, undeserving, corrupting and the worst thing that can happen to humanity." Now chaos is just these kind of bad guys that dress up in spikey outfits.

 

And I disagree with your last statement. There isn't a reasonably intelligent and cohesive vision". I would like you to use the current C:CSM and point out where that vision is. In the limited fluff within that book, where is the vision, and the argument? Where in the descriptions of the units is there that description.

 

With school turning out more runners, jumpers, racers, tinkerers, grabbers, snatchers, fliers, and swimmers instead of examiners, critics, knowers, and imaginative creators, the word `intellectual,' of course, became the swear word it deserved to be. You always dread the unfamiliar.

 

 

I'm just not sure that's reasonable. I mean, yes. There are individuals who are simply incapable of tolerating members of other opposed religions, but you don't see Christians running around trying to murder Satanists who happen to be on the same bus.

 

Chaos Marines might differ from your average citizen of the world today in some very significant ways--willingess to randomly murder people being one of them--but the fact remains that simply being in the presence of a member of another religion, even an opposed religion, is not sufficient to drive everyone into a killing frenzy. These marines might worship their respective gods, but the primary goal in the mind of just about each and every one is to get himself ahead--to gain more respect, power, money, prestige, immortality, or whatever.

You do realize it is more then a choice?

It is possession, not by some 4 color cinematic daemon. But of chaos, the worst (or was) of humna emotion.

The stuff you list is the entry point. Go back and read Slaves to Darkness, or Libera Chaotica, especially the Slaanesh one. It isn't personal gain. Chaos isn't "individual", it is eternal service, damnation and corruption. Look at the two RT era titles.

 

Slaves to Darkness

The Lost and the Damned

 

There isn't worship because you feel like it, there is worship because the gods consume you. Sure the "cultists" may be fringe to the power, but they soon learn that they are damned, their souls forfeit. You don't choose to change your religion, you are consumed by it.

 

I ask where you have read what you are saying.

 

They're in it for personal gain. Their gods are a vehicle by which that gain might be accomplished, but, in the majority of cases, the gods aren't much more than that. Berserkers don't kill people for Khorne because they think Khorne is a nice guy and want to make him happy. They heap skulls on the skull throne because they want to be rewarded.

 

Chaos marines are in it for themselves. It makes perfect sense that they'd be willing to cooperate with just about anyone if it would help them meet their ends. It makes far more sense than presuming that they're incapable of sitting in each others' presences without killing each other just because of some religious differences. In fact, we know from the fluff that they don't routinely set about murdering members of the cults of other gods. There's in-fighting and backstabbing, sure, but (short-lived) cooperation among even very disparate factions of Chaos marines is downright common.

 

Your version of the fluff is silly, unappealing, and frankly not very in line with the actual fluff. The version which is presented in the Chaos Codex makes more sense.

I would say the same to you.

 

If you read the fluff, all the fluff, you will see the inclusion of many great works of art. Concepts of morality, large sweeping decisions, and many greek overtones.

 

 

Chaos as it was

Chaos and the Imperium are both fighting for Souls. The Emperor fought to save humanity for itself, and lead them into an elightened state. To avoid the doom that the Eldar had fallen into, because where the eldar destroy light years of space, humanity would destroy reality. So the Emperor fought for logic and reason, to strengthen the human mind. To elevate people to the "perfect mind". The emperor was thousands of individuals (shaman) that choose to die and be reborn as a single individual to save humanity.

 

Chaos is the dark, selfish, non-enlightened nature of humanity. It is that which turns people into monsters. Cardinal Sins of Wrath, lust, greed, envy and others. It is the corruption that eats at human souls and darkens the human future. To give into it is to risk not just your destruction, but that of all humanity and potentially all existance. It is the deepest darkest worst nature of things. It is shadowed in many works of literature. It is the fate that humanity must rise against.

 

The Imperium is the Brave New world. The unyeilding, uncaring, facet that humanity made when the emperor was wounded. It is the oppression the humans left behind struggled for. Holding humanity at an instant, avoiding growth enlightenment in the name of keeping things safe. It is another aspect of the horror of 40k. Unlike the Emperor that wanted enlightenment and humanity to rule again in a gold age, the Imperium holds the worlds stagnent, avoiding personal as well as societies growth. They are afraid of the future, and glorify the past.

 

I hope I've clarified things. The important thing for you to remember, Montag, is we're the Happiness Boys, the Dixie Duo, you and I and the others. We stand against the small tide of those who want to make everyone unhappy with conflicting theory and thought. We have our fingers in the dyke. Hold steady. Don't let the torrent of melancholy and drear philosophy drown our world. We depend on you. I don't think you realize how important you are, to our happy world as it stands now.

 

 

Chaos as you portray it

Selfishness.

 

 

 

40k is built upon literature and concepts from thousands of books. About the morale dilemma that each man faces. Do they strive to become enlightened, fall to cardinal sin, or stay stagnant in their thinking. Does a baby, child or adolescent grow into a good man, a bad man or does he stay an adolescent? Stories are not told in the simple "selfish nature", that is boring and to me way to "pokemon". Seriously though, it is like taking a greek classic and expecting "Ash and his friend Picachu" to deal with it. "Selfishness" is a motivation, not a sin.

 

Chaos isn't a religion, it is a morale debasement. It isn't a choice, it is a binding contract that damns the person for ever. And in the greatest of Greek stories, it isn't just your damnation, but potentially all of humanity.

 

If you choose "Selfishness", and "Enlightened self interest" over that. Well, Fahrenheight 451 was right.

"Play the man, Master Ridley; we shall this day light such a candle, by God's grace, in England, as I trust shall never be put out."

[refuse]

Something much the same about Slaanesh.

 

Is it just self gratification? Why is there this sense of "simplification" with chaos now? Is chaos really just "ooh, me, me, me, me" now? Why do people perceive chaos as "Chaos 90210" instead of "evil".

 

Well GW are a product of, and have to live by, the same rules that regulate advertising in this world. As such yes there is more of a taboo on sex than on blood, guts and gore. We can argue till the sun goes down on the philosophy and roots of this belief but the fact is some issues are more sensative than others. I wouldn't say it is really double standard just marketting sense, especially considering who GW are trying to market too. People are more comfortable with characters lobbing people's heads off than getting naked. So unless there is a change in society I don't really see it as being solely due to GW unless they want to lead some cultural revolution, which may not be the best thing for business ;)

I completely agree. The simple fact is, Slaanesh is sex. The Ruinous Powers are supposed to be the embodiments or archetypes of the base emotions of sentient races, so Khorne for violence, Tzeench for deceit, Nurgle for … (I’m not entirely sure about that one, even thought I play Death Guard :) ).

 

Slaanesh then stands for the unrestrained pursuit of pleasure, and I think that means physical sensation rather than the aesthetic pleasures of art, music or literature. Somehow I don’t see a follower of Slaanesh getting off by reading The Brothers Karamazov while a Mozart piano concerto plays in the background :) .

 

So I see Slaanesh as being about hedonistic over indulgence in such things as alcohol, drugs and sex, and the latter most of all. Think of the Marquis de Sade in space, not just the violent aspects but the whole “libertine philosophy”. I don’t recommend reading his books as background research, as they’re very badly written, but if anyone really wants to, Philosophy in the Bedroom is a fairly short and concise insight into what de Sade, and hence Slaanesh, was all about.

 

Of course, social convention means that there is no way GW would ever be explicit about what Slaanesh really is.

Ok.

I disagree.

Slaanesh isn't sex. It is debasement. The erosion of your morals and ethics. Leaving you hollow and souless. Not a souless killer, but worse. Pleasure is a means to wear people down.

If you read the libera chaotica Slaanesh, you can see, sex is the "attraction" but no the addiction.

 

The chaos gods were about the hollowness of relying on others, not yourself.

 

Tzeentch, the need for someone else to change things.

Nurlge, the need to survive, live, and rely on someone to save you.

Khorne, the need to kill or destroy those that you blame for your problems.

Slaanesh, the need to hide in sensation, addiction to hide your own failings.

 

They are the polar opposites of self realization. Back then (in Slaves and Lost and the Damned), the books indicated that stronger personalities, those that had mastered themselves were reborn time and time again. The Old Ones were the original race to do this, and the Shamans were the name for humans that did this. Chaos was the force that ate the weak. And the more weak the fell to chaos, the stronger chaos became. Indifference and lack of personal responsibility were the themes. It is very much like Brave New World, 1984, Atlas Shrugged in that aspect.

 

i.e. if you can't accomplish something, pray to the gods for deliverence. Don't try to do it yourself.

So if you can't overcome an enemy, pray to Khorne for strength. Can't deal with reality, pray to Slaanesh for a moment of "forgetfulness". Don't like the world as it is, pray to Tzeentch. Don't want to die, suffering, pray to Nurgle.

 

Or you can overcome it yourself, and gain the "perfect mind". Personal responsibility.

 

For Slaanesh

Sex is a weak hook. Drug is a weak hook. Rock and roll is a weak hook. Something that is easy to understand, and points out the "moment of forgetfulness" or "absolution of personal responsibility". Can't deal with life, have some chemicals. Can't deal with reality, "hook up" to make yourself better. But when you "sober up", or "wake up" you feel just as bad as before. Slaanesh is a metaphor for your personal "daemons". That is kind of the point of my Sigs above.

 

"drugs/pain/sadism/masochism" as excuses for personal responsibility. Think of them as Slaanesh's Absolution. Does it fix anything? Nope, but for a few minutes you can ignore what ails you, then the absolution wears off, and you are where you were. Next time, it takes a little more absolution. Change absolution with experience, or music, or sex, or drugs and you get the idea.

 

Chaos is the "release" from personal responsibility. Gods that are "real" and active to absolve you of your own failings. "Slaanesh demands I torture you and send your soul to her".

The Dark Eldar stories usually show chaos better then the chaos stories. The Dark Eldar know they are just holding off the inevitable, their entire society is based around self indulgence, the bully syndrome (I kill you, or you kill me. The weak serve the strong) and the fact they are doomed from birth.

 

If you look at the Eldar, they use to serve Gods. Because they were unfocused and decadent. They then became strict, rules following, and developing their selves by walking and mastering all of the aspects of life. But they learned this lesson to late.

 

Chaos, psychers and the Imperium are the facets of all the aspects of humanity. Humans need to rise above, master themselves before they consign themselves to the same fate as the Eldar. We see the "1984" world in the Imperium, where the "better future" for humanity is to deny them being human. Remove their ability to think, thus to sin, or fail in personal responsibility. Look at the doctrines and sayings, they all imply the citizens need to be good, the Emperor is watching. We see the perfect world of the Tau in Brave New World. Everything is shiney and pretty, as long as you are inside the cities.

 

The Chaos powers are the absolution of self responsibility. They are the easy path to blaming others. The key in 40k is that if you call for help, absolving yourself of sin, someone will answer. But the cost may be higher then you think.

http://forum.emperorschildren.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10002/metaphor.jpg