Woah, hold up a second...

[Hasoroth]

The idea of the worshipers of the four gods of Chaos playing nice with each other does make me feel a little sick, fluff wise. The gods are squabbling monstrosities, with unification between the four and their followers happening rarely. I mean, its Chaos.

[Cale]

Wow, that was...little more than inane rambling, Refuse. I'm not even sure how to respond. It seems like you had a point in there, somewhere, but it was lost--primarily due to a frightening lack of structure. If you want to try again, I'd be interested in hashing it out with you. There might be some value in discussing whether the old chaos fluff is more like classic literature, or whether classic literature is as naturally superiour as you appear to be claiming. However, as it stands, there isn't much in your post which is sufficiently comprehensible to warrant a response.

 

What I will do is, when I get a chance, to go through the current Codex: Chaos Space Marines and assemble evidence for the "coherent vision" which I ascribed to it.

 

Also, I'm not sure if you were intending to be insulting, but it came across that way. I'm not advocating censorship or sensationalism--and to any rational reader, the new Chaos Codex should come across as neither--and your blatant insinuation that, because I like the new Chaos 'flavour' better than the old, I am incapable of liking good literature or incapable of recognizing good literature is really not acceptable.

[refuse]

Wow, that was...little more than inane rambling, Refuse. I'm not even sure how to respond. It seems like you had a point in there, somewhere, but it was lost--primarily due to a frightening lack of structure. If you want to try again, I'd be interested in hashing it out with you. There might be some value in discussing whether the old chaos fluff is more like classic literature, or whether classic literature is as naturally superiour as you appear to be claiming. However, as it stands, there isn't much in your post which is sufficiently comprehensible to warrant a response.

Nope, obviously not worth it.

If you don't understand it, there isn't much sense. But we see you have read it, and drawn conclusions.

What I will do is, when I get a chance, to go through the current Codex: Chaos Space Marines and assemble evidence for the "coherent vision" which I ascribed to it.

Danke.

And please, feel free to support your claims about previous fluff, and the person not describing it properly.

 

Also, I'm not sure if you were intending to be insulting, but it came across that way. I'm not advocating censorship or sensationalism--and to any rational reader, the new Chaos Codex should come across as neither--and your blatant insinuation that, because I like the new Chaos 'flavour' better than the old, I am incapable of liking good literature or incapable of recognizing good literature is really not acceptable.

Not true. I used the same tone you used on the other person. You drew conclusions between Chaos ( a fantastical creation and religion ) I drew conclusions between the current fluff, older fluff and classic literature.

 

I disagree (per normal) with you, and you choose not to respond, but to make side comments. And if you can't understand what I wrote, you seemed to have formed a strong opinion of it. Hmm. Can't understand, but you take it as insulting.

 

I never mentioned you advocating anything did I? You are reading into my comments what you will.

 

You like the "Selfish nature of new chaos" as you perceive it, versus the darker nature chaos use to have. I mention Fahrenheit 451 (which isn't about censorship by the way. So you are drawing your own conclusions) where the fire chief explains how depth isn't important any more in the book. There is a correlation there. You see the "lighter" less dark and brooding nature as better, less silly, and inline with actual fluff. Less depth to the characters now in that they are out for themselves, vs the previous versions (which you point out are more like current religious fanatics then previous incarnations) who were damned. Thus the similarity to 451 where stories are not long and drawn out with dozens of sub plots, but are boiled down to paragraphs, then blurbs.

 

I quote you:

Chaos marines are in it for themselves.

That is your summation of Chaos.

 

Let me quote you again, in response to the other person. And you decide if it is insulting, polite, or in the context of a discussion.

Your version of the fluff is silly, unappealing, and frankly not very in line with the actual fluff.

Is what you said to the other person. And to be "frank", they were very in line. Not with the current codex, but with all the previous fluff about Chaos.

 

Again, you read what you want (as with this codex). So were you insulting? Rambling ?(actually religious fanatics do beat, attack and kill each other, for no other reason then religion, color of the skin and many other less meaningful reasons).

 

I just pointed out that chaos was much more, and now is a blurb. "Selfish". Same as you pointed out to the previous person, their version of the fluff is silly, unappealing and frankly not in line with the actual fluff. Your words.

 

I did the same!

[Lord_Caerolion]

The thing is, Cale, is that Chaos worshipers aren't "normal" religious worshipers. They make extremists look tame, and have to deal with the fact that if they annoy their God, it's spawn-time for them. And fighting alongside the warriors of a God that is completely and utterly opposed to your God, that would give anything to see your God annihilated, is just one of the many ways to kiss your body good-bye.

It has nothing to do with "We'll fight alongside anybody, because we just want to pillage", but more of a case of "Well, much as I would ally in normal circumstances, I like my body the way it is, rather than being a Picasso impression, at the least, so I'll do what my God wants, and crush those guys."

 

Basically, if the Lord is Unidivided, then fine, have whatever you want. It's the fact that it's now more along the lines of "Oh, ok. I'll go along with your plans, even though they are almost certainly damaging to my own God, but what the hell!"

 

You have to remember, if Khorne gets more power, Slaanesh loses power, and the same happens no matter what two opposite Gods you choose to use. The fact is, that Plague Marines aren't going to help Tzeentch get more power, or Noise Marines help Khorne.

[Shadowstorm]

I thought that I should add something. The Chaos Lord is a independent character. in a technical sense the Lord can not start with the unit. They an join once the battle has started. The only reason i point this out is cause a Termi Lord has to role separate deep strike roles. Besides Jervis has said that this is more like Renegade Space Marines as apposed to a true Chaos Marine Codex. Supposedly the Legions will get there codex's at a future time.

[Lord_Caerolion]

The point about not being able to start in the unit being? The fact remains that they can still join once battle starts, and once 5th edition comes out, they'll apparently be able to start in the same unit anyway.

[Rain]

If Chaos Marines are all completely selfish Cale, then why does this very codex describe how berserkers "fall upon their own weapons as sacrifices to Khorne"? I mean isn't suicide a rather big damper on personal ambition? Furthermore, if you are fanatical enough to kill yourself to please your god, surely you would be more than willing to kill others for the same reason, not to mention the fact that it is a long documented piece of fluff that the Emperor's Children and World Eaters are at war. Yet after all this, you really expect marines serving one god to bow before a lord serving a rival god?

 

Oh and comparing an average contemporary religious person with a Chaos Worshiper is like comparing your feud with that one annoying guy at work with the Vietnam War. One is a lot more violent than the other.

 

In any case, I think this all begs the question of whether or not you even play Chaos, because if not, then your opinion does not really matter per se as this change in fluff, rules, and play style does not affect you or your enjoyment of the hobby.

[Lord_Tzeen]

Let me quote you again, in response to the other person. And you decide if it is insulting, polite, or in the context of a discussion.

Your version of the fluff is silly, unappealing, and frankly not very in line with the actual fluff.

Is what you said to the other person. And to be "frank", they were very in line. Not with the current codex, but with all the previous fluff about Chaos.

 

Again, you read what you want (as with this codex). So were you insulting? Rambling ?(actually religious fanatics do beat, attack and kill each other, for no other reason then religion, color of the skin and many other less meaningful reasons).

 

I just pointed out that chaos was much more, and now is a blurb. "Selfish". Same as you pointed out to the previous person, their version of the fluff is silly, unappealing and frankly not in line with the actual fluff. Your words.

 

I did the same!

 

Yay, i got backed up by one of the high-ups in the forum! :D

 

seriously though, the old fluff is much better, whereby forces of opposing gods hated eachother, and as has been pointed out by others, not just me, the Chaos gods are opposite forces of nature effectively, who go to war with eachother regularly, turn their followers into spawn for going against the beliefs of the relevant god, and generally hate eachother.

 

So really, the current "fluff", if we true believers in Chaos can even bear call it such, is a total 180 twist on what used to happen..next, if these twists become commonplace, they'll say the Emperor is a chaos god, and the chaos gods are really immature multi-dimensional children, with this existance as their antfarm! :devil:

 

Pretzel-hammer 40,000 FTW! ;) (pretzel being a referrence to how they twist the fluff about so much)

[Lord_Caerolion]

Actually, Cale does play Chaos, and the fact of whether or not he plays Chaos isn't relevant to the argument. He would still be effected by the fluff, so it doesn't matter.

[refuse]

I thought that I should add something. The Chaos Lord is a independent character. in a technical sense the Lord can not start with the unit. They an join once the battle has started. The only reason i point this out is cause a Termi Lord has to role separate deep strike roles. Besides Jervis has said that this is more like Renegade Space Marines as apposed to a true Chaos Marine Codex. Supposedly the Legions will get there codex's at a future time.

 

Issue is, this is C:CSM, not C:Renegades, and was never presented as C:Renegades. If you go to the flogging thread, there has been no official statement from GW that this is C:Renegades, and that C:Legions will ever come out.

Jervis has never stated in an official role that this is more like Renegades. That is rumor. Many people in the flogging thread brought up Jervis' statements (about how this was a mistake, not thought out, and a quick filler while orks were finished) and people rightly refuted that they were "heresey" and rumors, not backed up by any official GW statement.

 

Actually, Cale does play Chaos, and the fact of whether or not he plays Chaos isn't relevant to the argument. He would still be effected by the fluff, so it doesn't matter.

I agree 100%, and he has the right to feel the way he wants.

I am "arguing"/"discussing" this with him. His opinions is as valid as anyone elses. Though he has the right to try and change other's opinions, as well as have his changed. Same as every other member.

[the jeske]

well I dont know , but the fluff still is that the gods hate and fight each other in an eternal battle . that didnt change . And that they sometimes fight hand in hand . the thing is what does it mean sometimes?

For example Horus leading the forces of all gods ? cool nothing to have agains that , I mean he was flanked by two DP that would otherwise hate each other . A huge Black Crusade still cool [although from all the fluff GW gives us most legions still fight alone and as one force and they generally dont mix ] . But what does mean in game terms . Is a 1000 pts game a good representation of a black crusade or do we need an Apo game for that ? Its hard to decide . In the 4ed dex it was possible to make fluff armies [aka the legion ones] . Balanced or not they were fluffy . But the game designers also knew that people may want to use certain units that would normally never [or almost never ] fight on the same side [for example a BL demon bombs a khorn glaive prince + 2x3 slanesh bikers +loads of demons +oblits ] . that was the freedom of the old dex . Now we most remember that GW was and always will be a models selling company first and a rules/fluff selling company second . they decided that its better for the sales , if its going to be better for a player to use mixed units from different gods . Now in it self it wouldnt be a bad thing , if the codex didnt give huge handicaps for trying [because sometimes its not possible with the new dex] play with "fluffy" list . the whole shift from the "old fluff" where the gods hate each other and the "new fluff" was only made to sell more models . for example a pure list for the demon dex doesnt work , even the designer say that to use it you need to mix demons of different gods . Now in fluff the only moment when we had demons from different gods fighting side by side it was during the siege of terra . Even the stories about demon incrusions in the demon dex [i must adimit that made me lol sarcasticly] are about mono god armies . So in some way the fluff didnt change . Only sale marketing of chaos brand changed .

[Rain]

Alright so he does play Chaos, well that's good then. By the way, it's not irrelevant because although he is slightly affected by the fluff, I don't see many people worrying too much about fluff issues with armies they only fight, not field. I mean how many Chaos players do you see complaining about the low amount of Necron or Dark Eldar fluff?

 

Mostly just those that also play those armies. Furthermore, from the point of view of someone that fights Chaos, of course this codex is good because it effectively nerfs any non Black Legion players that want to maintain any semblance of army fluff. So I wasn't denying anyone their opinion, just denying its relevance, since let's be honest, it's much easier to go along with something that doesn't hurt you than with something that does.

 

Oh and I agree with the jeske about this being a cynical marketing ploy and nothing more, or at least I hope so because the only alternative is rank incompetence

[Jiri the Corrupted]

Thank the Ruinous Powers that I was playing BL before this codex came out, my army is just fine.

 

Anyway, back on topic. No selfrespecting fluff-loving Chaos player would field his Slaanesh Lord (or even worse, Sorceror) within a unit Berzerkers. They wouldn't, because they know it is wrong. Or at least they should know. Only people who play the army list instead of the army itself, would do such a thing.

 

There's this Tactica in this month's WD about fielding a powergaming-list for Chaos that involves two "lash-princes" and an army of PM. No doubt about it that this is a very effective combination, guaranteed succes in fact. But it's a tourney army, not a fluffy army.

Some people don't care about fluff, they just want to smash the other guy's army. These people use the most effective combination of marks and units they can think of. This isn't really wrong, it's just different.

Keep in mind that even though you CAN ignore marks and the old "ancient enemies" rule, you don't have to. After all, it's your choise if want to put that Slaanesh dude in the same squad with those Berzerkers. Nobody is forcing you to take a Tzeentch sorceror to lead your Plague Marine army, you can chose not to.

 

Also, while the fluff has been beat, some of the new artwork is really sweet. Gotta love the full page pic of that Champion standing on a pile of loyalist scum corpses on one of the first pages!

[Shadowstorm]

I wish they had at least kept the sacred number rule. At least then the army's would have some fluff.

[Lord_Caerolion]

The thing is though, is that going by just the new book, would you know that Khorne and Slaanesh hate each other, and that Khorne hates Sorcerors? Would you know that Tzeentch and Nurgle are always fighting? You wouldn't, because you're never told that. The impression we're given is that the Chaos Gods are just one big happy family now.

 

And Jeske, the Daemons fluff isn't always about mono-god armies. An example:

The palaces of the Imperial commander were besieged by hosts of Pink Horrors, Screamers, Daemonettes and Plaguebearers led by K'tzis'triz'a'trar, Daemon Prince of Tzeentch.

Other than that, there are quotes of Nurgle and Slaanesh fighting together, but most of the poly-god armies are mentioned in the Fantasy book.

[chillin]

A pwr gaming list with twin lash princes, you don't say ;) .

Why would they even put that in WD ? Do they think there is ANYONE who hasn't thought of, heard about, read about, played with, or played against that army ?

Why would they put the most spammed chaos army list of the new dex in WD ?

They want to do something, try coming up with a powerful list that DOESN'T have dual lash, that is also fluffy for one of the legions.

A retarded monkey could make a power list using dual lash and PM's after seeing the dex for the 1st time.

[Joah from Alberta]

I am presently working on achieving the 10k mark of chaos. Once I achieve this, I will purchase twin titans and dedicate them to Khorne. In the meantime, I have all five unit colours (hey, just like MTG).

 

I think those people who wish to adhere to the old ways are really missing out. Either it be by stoic devotion (much like roman catholic priests) or perhaps they are smug in their model count/composition.

 

I believe the true nature of chaos is change. Remember folks, you can never conceivably create an objective definition of chaos and Gods for what we perceive is based upon our own subjective demarcations, we are men afterall, subject to the shrill of our own pathetic existence. How can we see beyond our own world? How can we know what is proper chaos?

 

Why would a Khorne lord not align itself with a Slaanesh? Maybe such a union is taboo on the surface, but what really does go on between locked doors is non of you f'n business, and hey, if it works then so be it.

 

I like the fact that chaos is on a rampage. I also enjoyed building a crucible force back in the ancient days. Guess what, those days are gone. It's now up to us to make sense of our game. Are you going to be lapped all your life by the tabloids, or are you going to actually contribute to your game. Every little effort counts towards the ascension of Chaos. If you think you can be so smug, like those bigwigs in The Hitchikers Guide, then know that Death waits for no one! Chaos is free to be as chaos pleases. If you want LAW then you need an order so be loyal to it. Otherwise, understand that chaos owes no allegiance to anyone!!!

[Lord_Caerolion]

Uhh... Khorne wouldn't ally with Slaanesh because they are completely anathema to each other. You can't have something utterly dedicated to Hatred and Lust, its one or the other. Same with Nurgle and Tzeentch, try as you might, Hope and Despair are just too different to be able to see the same way about something. Perhaps I should quote the Liber Chaotica here:

These Four are like points upon a compass - none are close and some are opposite. War and Pleasure are two such opposites, facing each other across eternity, hating and warring; two ideals separated by an impassable gulf of Belief and Purpose. For Khorne is discipline, hardness, suffering and rage, while Slaanesh is indulgence, beauty, ecstasy and lust. Their opposition is carved upon the knucklebones of fate, and conflict can be their only recourse.

 

As much as you may want to argue, the Chaos Gods have their utter opposites, which are anathema to each other. Hope cannot exist alongside despair. Rage cannot exist alongside lust.

 

And yes, Chaos is change, that is true. But the stuff that comprises Chaos, that part doesn't change. Khorne may one day become Khaine, or Shiva, or whatever other war-god you choose, but the fact still remains that it is impossible for it to coexist in harmony with a god of beauty and pleasure, whether that be Slaanesh, or Lileath, or Aphrodite, or whatever else Slaanesh may become. As again, quoting the Liber Chaotica:

From whenever 'then' was, until whenever 'now' is, the gods have continued their unending dance, twirling each other through the minds and souls of mortals. First one leads and then another, each keeping step in this pavane of evil, a stately measure played out to the beating of human hearts.

None of these Powers can ever truly win against its brothers, for, as the Great Conspirator did say, it is the nature of things that change is the only constant - and nowhere is this more true than within the shadowy place that is Chaos.

 

Yet still the Gods dance and their bellows of delight shake the universe.

 

In the Realms of Chaos, everything changes, but by changing everything remains the same.

[Joah from Alberta]

Without despair, there is no hope. Rageful lust, hmm, sounds like wife beating syndrome: perfectly healthy Khorne/Slaanesh relationship.

 

Nomenclature and indoctrination are two different things. One states an order of understanding, the other perpetuates a standard of acceptance.

 

According to our current CSM rule-set, Khorne and Slaanesh are not anathema http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anathema. Perhaps you are confusing the current situation with the previous, dated, CSM codex when Khorne and Slaanesh were hated enemies and individual pantheon Gods awarded benefits to absolute devotion. Yes, I remember the old CSM rules, as a matter of fact I was quite fond of them.

 

The new CSM rule-set does not mention anything about dipole opposites within the legions. Sure, there's mention of "supposed history", but many historians have cited that the fluff does not validate consistently from previous codices.

 

If you're trying to validate the ancient enemies in rule by using logic, it's division by zero, and this logic is already damned by insufficient constant. Then you'll fluff and you'll puff and all of your integrity will show on how for the past twenty years so and so has been so and so. Yeah, so what.

 

Some of us are choosing to accept things for what they are. If GW has an angle of selling models then guess what, they can have all of my disposable income because when I was a kid the only real physical enjoyment (apart from building) I ever had with my toy models was with my bb gun (and other weapons of destruction). When I step into a GW store, I feel that I am stepping into a page of history, 'cause by all accounts, such a store should never exist, what with all the internet shipping, yeah I'm blabbing. But damn, I do feel privileged and grateful to those pinhead redshirts. (Well, in the Star Trek Universe they are disposable.)

 

Chaos is chaos. If you factor chaos down the logical root, you would find that it is best defined as that which cannot be defined. Hence Law-- which constitutes a body of order; Chaos is the opposite, why-- cause it's all over the place.

 

Anyhow, wargods love to lavish. I was reading in the Art of War one of the Emperors of some Dynasty (I want to say Ying for some reason). Anyhow, this guy owned acres upon acres of forests and valleys. For all of his reign, he would throw these massive parties where he would have multitudes of young people run around at night naked. He would drain lakes to fill them with wine and hang meat through-out his parks and gardens. Now, I'm sure this guy probably wasn't no military genius, but the point this kcuf-up behaviour is written in The Art of War.

 

We are fortunate that in our generation (most of us) do not know War. For there is a lot that we are desensitized to. beat and pillage, genocide, torture, extortion, disease, hunger, deprivation, man, I could get uglier with this list.

 

You want to say that Khorne and Slaanesh will never unify unless by virtue of power gaming, then that is entirely your privilege.

 

I will choose to say that Khorne and Slaanesh will unify. And if it means that Chaos will become more powerful, then that is my right.

 

What the being said there, this edit was brought to you by Insane Psychopath

[refuse]

Without despair, there is no hope. Rageful lust, hmm, sounds like wife beating syndrome: perfectly healthy Khorne/Slaanesh relationship.

 

Nomenclature and indoctrination are two different things. One states an order of understanding, the other perpetuates a standard of acceptance.

 

According to our current CSM rule-set, Khorne and Slaanesh are not anathema http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anathema. Perhaps you are confusing the current situation with the previous, dated, CSM codex when Khorne and Slaanesh were hated enemies and individual pantheon Gods awarded benefits to absolute devotion. Yes, I remember the old CSM rules, as a matter of fact I was quite fond of them.

 

The new CSM rule-set does not mention anything about dipole opposites within the legions. Sure, there's mention of "supposed history", but many historians have cited that the fluff does not validate consistently from previous codices.

The new rules don't mention many things.

Daemonic gifts, God specific Daemons, Legions and their alignments.

 

Why is Emperor's Children composed of Noise Marines? Are they even dedicated to Slaanesh or just carrying Icons? What is the difference (not mentioned in the books) between a unit dedicated (Marked) or not.

 

Heck, read the book there is no definition of Daemons, so therefore they don't exist, as a matter of fact the unit entry does't say daemon, so they aren't.

 

So what is this new book? The new CSM rule-set (as you mention) doesn't say alot. It says next to nothing, so by the logic you are using, most things don't exist.

 

If you're trying to validate the ancient enemies in rule by using logic, it's division by zero, and this logic is already damned by insufficient constant. Then you'll fluff and you'll puff and all of your integrity will show on how for the past twenty years so and so has been so and so. Yeah, so what.

The logic then states. If nothing existed before, what is the justification for now? And where was before?

 

Ah, you make my point about Fahrenheit 451 for me.

 

Some of us are choosing to accept things for what they are. If GW has an angle of selling models then guess what, they can have all of my disposable income because when I was a kid the only real physical enjoyment (apart from building) I ever had with my toy models was with my bb gun (and other weapons of destruction). When I step into a GW store, I feel that I am stepping into a page of history, 'cause by all accounts, such a store should never exist, what with all the internet shipping, yeah I'm blabbing. But damn, I do feel privileged and grateful to those pinhead redshirts. (Well, in the Star Trek Universe they are disposable.)

No, you are not choosing to accept things for what they are, you are choosing to only pay attention to what you choose to. Same as others.

When you step into a GW store (your example) it exists (as you point out in the age of the internet) because they sued and bullied and forced others to not follow basic laws of buisness. They are not here because of good buisness practices, they sent Cease and desist letters to B&Ms and Internet stores to remove their products from internet sales. Sorry, your case fails upon that. You have to accept they are not here due to good buisness practices (well the same good buisness that the RIAA uses, sue, sue, sue).

 

Chaos is chaos. If you factor chaos down the logical root, you would find that it is best defined as that which cannot be defined. Hence Law-- which constitutes a body of order; Chaos is the opposite, why-- cause it's all over the place.

What is chaos? Based on your first paragraph it is next to nothing as defined in the C:CSM.

And Chaos isn't chaos. Chaos is the name humanity gave to it. Just a point. A rose being called a rose doesn't make it, only defines it in a mutually acceptable way. Chaos is humans definition of the Warp Entities that they recognize them. Humans have called other humans gods, but that doesn't make them gods. Chaos is the perception of the Warp entities that humans can understand. Much like ancient man thinking the sun rose because of "magic", or that gods in their chariots pulled it, doesn't mean it is real.

 

So calling chaos chaos, doesn't make it chaotic. It means that humans can't perceive the pattern. Bumble bees danced in random patterns, until enough people studied them to understand the patern, same with "weather paterns". They were just random, until people studied it and understood it, and even then. ..

 

Anyhow, wargods love to lavish. I was reading in the Art of War one of the Emperors of some Dynasty (I want to say Ying for some reason). Anyhow, this guy owned acres upon acres of forests and valleys. For all of his reign, he would throw these massive parties where he would have multitudes of young people run around at night naked. He would drain lakes to fill them with wine and hang meat through-out his parks and gardens. Now, I'm sure this guy probably wasn't no military genius, but the point this kcuf-up behaviour is written in The Art of War.

 

We are fortunate that in our generation (most of us) do not know War. For there is a lot that we are desensitized to. beat and pillage, genocide, torture, extortion, disease, hunger, deprivation, man, I could get uglier with this list.

 

You want to say that Khorne and Slaanesh will never unify unless by virtue of power gaming, then that is entirely your privilege.

 

I will choose to say that Khorne and Slaanesh will unify. And if it means that Chaos will become more powerful, then that is my right.

Uh, I think that last paragraph makes no sense.

And I think you should re-word it.

 

Last paragraph on the last quote was edit. Insane Psychoapth

[the jeske]

The new CSM rule-set does not mention anything about dipole opposites within the legions. Sure, there's mention of "supposed history", but many historians have cited that the fluff does not validate consistently from previous codices.

well first all you have to remember that the "new" chaos dex was made only because GW had problems with the ork models . they werent ready and GW had to sell something they decided to do chaos . Thats why the codex is so .. well ... I want to use the word castrated , but will settle on streamlined . the rules were cut and options were cut , because they didnt have time to test them [not that they test team is really good] . and even with those cuts we had problems with how lash works [and the DT being zomg " we didnt knew , people would play with 2 lash princes ??" ] . that about the rules . But check the fluff part of the dex [ I know butchered compering to the old dex, short etc ] but its still the same . the gods still hate each other , they still most of the time fight against each other [even in the new chaos dex] . the only difference between the old and new dex is that in the old dex the focus was put on the hatred and the individual legions , while in the new the focus is put on a mixed force . As I said before the whole BLness is possible , from the fluff point , but its rare , very rare . Legions generally dont fight alonge each other specially does that hate each other . Saying that a small skirmish force of 40/50 man has members of 3/4 legions in it is stupid .

 

Chaos is chaos. If you factor chaos down the logical root, you would find that it is best defined as that which cannot be defined. Hence Law-- which constitutes a body of order; Chaos is the opposite, why-- cause it's all over the place.

eee sorry man but thats not what the fluff tells us . WB are undivded and hunt down any member who start worshiping a single god . WE are broken up . EC too . And both their primarch arent really interested in the fate of their legion . most 1k sons are loyla to magnus . most DG are loyal to Mortyrion [off topic . Isnt it strange how the cult legions are represented by renegades , traitors etc from they own ranks . ]etc etc . Or maybe am getting you wrong . People on western forums tend to write in character and in sometimes confuses me .

[Greysensei]

I think that perhaps we are getting fluff and rules mixed up here a little.

 

I am a chaos purist before we start. No mixed armies at all, in fact I have difficulty using undivided as they seem a little cheaty. This is because my chaos education started with R.O.C., and these combined warhammer and 40k background beautifully. The chaos gods were opposed to each other in these books, they were as much enemies as mortals, but they were on the same side. The differences between the gods makes each army distinct, and a challenge in itself. The prinicpal was easy then, whichever army you took decided which way you would fight.

 

Since then the chaos fluff has gone, erm walkabout. I must admit, that first of all I was disgusted, why fix something when it is not broken? But I have realised that the rules only allow you to change the fluff. They don't change it themselves. I like the idea of renegades not being as devout as my boys, and by not being so devout make mistakes, shortcuts to power. You don't have to mini-maxi out every list that happens and then compare that too the fluff. I can understand a powerful leader uniting various opposing forces, and there are regular examples through 40k of it (dark angels and space wolves, imperial guard and eldar, Orcs and Chaos etc) You can't go against the flow sadly, squats, imperial guard land speeders, thudd guns, I have bought them all, only for a GW so-n-so to make them "illegal".

 

My advise is play the army you want. If you army is "pure" then you can take a little more pride than a player who is using the list to win regardless. E.g. Lash of Torment would be almost the perfect psychic power for my khorne army. Shame I'll never know... If you are the player who dissects the lists in order to find that perfect armylist, good luck to you. The word used to be beardy, but there I guess I am showing my age...

[Lay]

Without despair, there is no hope. Rageful lust, hmm, sounds like wife beating syndrome: perfectly healthy Khorne/Slaanesh relationship.

Rage and lust are NOT what makes Khorne and Slaanesh opposing forces.

At this point I'd try to explain why but you've wrote:

Then you'll fluff and you'll puff and all of your integrity will show on how for the past twenty years so and so has been so and so. Yeah, so what.

So what.

What are you basing your views on Chaos upon then?

CAN'T be the fluff - you've ruled it out.

 

 

Chaos is chaos. If you factor chaos down the logical root, you would find that it is best defined as that which cannot be defined. Hence Law-- which constitutes a body of order; Chaos is the opposite, why-- cause it's all over the place.

So it's not about terrible people serving terrible gods that hate each other?

Does it make to much sense to be described as Chaos?

Guess it does ...if you look it up in a dictionary.

[Iron-Daemon Forge]

Folks, just a friendly reminder that this is a family site so some of the memeber be careful with some of the words being use.

 

Thanks for your time

 

IP

[Joah from Alberta]

See, you had me hooked until the "pride" part. Why should you feel more pride fielding a "pure" force then fielding a ragtag force. They are both your investment, much time, love and care went into building and painting and composing this army.

 

I don't care to hear the business opera, how this was necessary for that. I simply wish to make the best of things. I feel so honoured that I am able to play this game. I will make the best of it. And for me, that means rather than to say, oi, looks like they screwed up and rushed this out to get more molla. NO. I will chose to accept the fact that I can field two DPs, and I will stand by my given option 100%. See, I will make the best of it, I will progress forwards and not lament for a lost codex and sour the situation. By my greater acceptance, I will build upon my foundation and stand up for what I believe in.

 

It's your choice. Rather than to justify and lament, I say embrace and try to quantify why it is things are the way they are: without discrimination. Don't just say, oh, I bought models and now they're no good. Say, well, it's out with the old and in with the new. If you want fluff, then dig abit and see if you can tie things together using arbitrary means. As an example, I play a World Eaters force for the most part. I am proud to say that last month, I played 24000 Apocalypse game and fielded a "pure" World Eaters force by 3.5 standard. That's what I wanted to do, and that's what I did. Yet, for the most part, my termies and bikes are collecting dust while I'm busy building and dreaming of my New World Eaters.

 

In the meantime, I have thought to myself, why is it possible that I may include other elements in my World Eaters army, such as vindis, raptors, even ghasp, Slaaneshi hoes and Tzeentch monkeys. Why, why, why. I do NOT want to say, oh, welcome to corporate america, it's what the board wants for better sales period. I will not soil my imaginative investment with such foul reality. Rather, I piece together that Angron was kicked out of the prime material and the World Eaters are in rout. They've eaten their fill and the happy crappy space cadets crashed their partay. Now they've been running back to the Eye of Terror or wherever and along the way, they are picking up some nifty toys and newbie friends.

 

The way that I perceive Chaos is that only 1% of the Warhammer 40k Universe is composed of FOC armies. The rest of the U is populated by brigants, thieves, LatD, britney spears look alikes, you get the drift. 1%. If you took every Chaos army ever built by every player on the planet, that would constitute 1% of Chaos. And then, I think I'm being generous. So according to my theory, 1% is quite a unique occasion. Well, these guys live forever and sometimes they come packing a dozen bloodys, sometimes their regimented like the crew on a USS Kittyhawk, whatever: it makes up 1%, the nipple on the iceberg (kosher IP?). I know I can get vulgar, I try.

 

My point, my point ... we're all friends here. I am going to work on Abby tonight and post a pic to commemorate the occasion. You are entitled and justified to your own unique point of view. This is the beauty of our mankind, for together we may radiate a cosmic sphere of conscience that emanates such a Godly presence in our little dark corner. Ah, Pompei, I digress,

 

Consider that your righteous indignation may be stunting your development. Either way, who are you to me?! Do you think that I care what you think of me?! I am going to keep building my New World Eaters regardless of how you feel things should be. I love the fact that you keep your army sacred by lore. I myself feel that there's a reason my berzerkers are excellent marksman. Perhaps even tacticians with an open mind.

 

Cheers to Chaos,