Woah, hold up a second...

[the jeske]

Rather, I piece together that Angron was kicked out of the prime material and the World Eaters are in rout. They've eaten their fill and the happy crappy space cadets crashed their partay. Now they've been running back to the Eye of Terror or wherever and along the way, they are picking up some nifty toys and newbie friends.

well first of all how can the WE be runing back to the eye when they are inside it ? also angorn has not lead his legion for a long time now . In fact out of all the cult legion primarchs he and fulgrim [who in fact is no longer fulgrim the primarch] are not really interested in the fate of their legions . For me the fluff is something important [i mean why play the game other wise? other firms make better models and am a good sculptor myself , other games have better rules etc]. Sure it changes and was full of holes , but at least it was good . the 4th ed dex and the WD articles were great and they made sense [unlike the JJ dex] . It made you want to play chaos , because it was cool [and the armies were more or less playable ] . You ask why are we so upset up the new dex . Well I would adivce you to read the flogging , but it is kind of a long . So let me make it quick . First its the problem of dull dex and 1 army . If Gav wanted to eliminate no brainers ,well at least we know why he left . Second is the rules castration of fluff . You see the fluff didnt change , its the rules that advocate playing either BL or totally unfluffy armies . But all that wouldnt be important enough to "whine" after the dex is here . We are constantly saying that the codex was a bad move , so that in the future no other fan base has to deal with something like that . Because the dex doesnt look the way it does , because GW wanted to change something or make it more cool or more easy for new players [i dont know much about US players but in Europe most 14 year old were building good tournament armies and learend quick how to play with them] , they made it because the ork model range wasnt ready with the new ork dex . and they panicked .

 

also you say that its fair game for anyone to use anything that is legal . Am cool with that.[even if it does mean my nids suck now ] . But please dont give me crap about siege WE [PM's] or blasma blaster armed IW [1ksons] , because its lame . Either use the legal fluff and then suffer with a weak army , or go play BL . Otherwise sooner or later you will find young people using WFB models or battles or paper circles used as drop pods etc . and that does not help the hobby .

[Joah from Alberta]

jeske, you have a lot of good to offer. I have read your posts and your contributions are well thought out. Yet on this point, I feel you are somewhat mistaken. Did you ever think that the designer of our latest codex believed that enough was enough with the cultist way of playing, that perhaps it was taking the game a little too far? Everyone is so eager to jump the gun and superimpose their deductions on how GW is steering their ship and why things from a gamer's perspective turned out the way that they did. I applaud the new codex for its liberation. That is the way that I look at it.

 

Do I label you or accuse you for playing your supremacist lists?! Do I say, you kkk racists, how dare you play such an inbred list? Yet, because I am now permitted to field any option from my codex, you call me powergamer, and accuse me of disregarding any fluff.

 

In WWI, the French and the British believed in a gentlemanly conduct of war. They would march their infantry in lines on the battlefield. The Germans would look at them and laugh while they mowed them down from their machinegun nests.

 

In WWII, the Germans developed an advanced form of warfare which unified all elements of the army (a great task what with the putsy old generals in the Wehrmacht): Army, Navy, Air. This was called the Blitzkrieg, and once again it took the world by surprise.

 

You know, if you want to go ahead and think in a convenient framework, then go ahead. It's your call. It's not uncommon for man to conform to familiarity. Yet on the other hand, if we take the initiative to develop our own take on things, refrain from labeling us powergamers, or otherwise, for then you are getting personal.

 

Every dog has his day. This can be a competitive game. Saying that you don't play to win is either hypocrisy or just plain dumb. I once believed that imagination is the crown of man, but as I grow older I believe that it is diversity. Perhaps Chaos exists only while man exists.

 

So, why am I writing to you. Well, I wish to share my views with my fellow community in hopes that I may cast certain enlightenment. I feel that rather than to condemn what has been given to us, praise it for what it is. I hope the best for our community, and I swear that we are making great progress. Heck, just last night I was (somewhat) invited to a facebook warhammer group from my local area. Heh heh, I doubt I'll ever submit, but man, that is something.

 

Okay, I was thinking about an old Van Dam movie: Time Cop. There's a scene where these pirates go back in time and steal a tonne of gold from a confederate convoy. Actually really cool, cause they end up gunning down the yanks with something like a heavy bolter. I was thinking that this was impossible, not from the paradox involved in the prospect of time travel, but rather the effect that has already negated the cause. Rather than to perceive time flowing as a linear sight, given the above example, we can be abstract and solve the equation in reverse.

 

If time had already existed and you stepped back into it, wouldn't there be some kind of turbulence, like water parting when you walk through it. So buddy manages to step back in time, but theres all these counterbalances that are now triggered all around him. Maybe he steps back only to find himself like a crying puddle from a Star Trek teleporter accident. Maybe he does succeed and shouting his threats only to fumble with his gun and himself get gunned down by the possy.

 

Things happen for a reason in life. Your accusing your fellow gamers for lack of integrity in following the sacred fluff is *not going to make our game better. If anything, it's only going to cause a rift and suffer for sportsmanship.

 

 

"The Dominion of Fire

 

In the mid-38th Millenium, Angron, Primarch of the World Eaters, rampaged from the Eye of Terror at the head of an army of fifty thousand Khorne Berzerkers. (I love this stuff.) For nearly two hundred years, the World Eaters burned and slaughtered their way across three dozen star systems. Behind the vanguard of the Blood God's chosen, other warbands followed (hint hint), looting everything not destroyed by Angron's horde. In the wake of the carnage, the flames of war and rebellion burned across seventy sectors for a further two and a half centuries, ans saw the deaths of countless Imperial scum. Many Imperial scum threw off the yoke of the Emperor's rule and petty warlords reigned over the cowering populace. Eventually, four space cadet chapters, two Titan Legions (yeah!) and over thrity Imperial Guard regiments crusaded to cleanse the fallen worlds. After a total of seven centuries, ninety percent of the affected sectors were once more under Imperial law and the Dominion of Fire was brought to an end."

 

But for every end, there is a beginning. And so, my New World Eaters with their advanced tactics and tactical prowess have emerged. Composed primarily of veteran warriors of Khorne, this Legion has founded new allegiances with other faces of war such as control freakish lash lords and deamonically possessed siege mongers. Their method of interstellar transport is similar to the Reaver ships found in Serenity-- composed mostly of ancient light class vessels such as Thunderhawks, and drop pods turned to Chaos.

[Joah from Alberta]

http://pixpipeline.com/s/ef38d32eeb88.jpg

[flintlocklaser]

That's not a rambling, pointless post... that's a space station!

[Rain]

The funny thing here is that you could field a "ragtag" army with the old codex, you would just have to have an unmarked or undivided leader, to represent someone who is willing to make compromises with his own allegiance in order to collect a diverse group of followers. Furthermore, the old codex let you take veteran skills to better represent highly experienced secular CSMs and actually add more diversity to lists. As for playing to win, of course people play to win, but within reason. If you field some combo that is obviously overpowered, especially in a friendly game, even if you win it doesn't mean you are a good player, but only that you took a powerful and hackneyed list. To put it another way, if you race a ferrari against a carolla, the ferrari will probably win, but that doesn't mean that the guy in the ferrari is a better driver.

[Lady_Canoness]

That is an awesome picture :(

 

Anyhow, doesn't this belong in the bashing thread now?

 

Either way, here is what I think: you know what the new Codex really looks like? It looks like the Dawn of War Chaos Marines. Think about it: generic Lord and Sorcerer with few upgrades; generic daemons; available cult troop to any army (Berzerkers); and regular dudes that wear the mark of any legion. Like DoW, the Chaos Codex is now totally open for the player to represent their forces how they wish (without extensive unit customization). I play Black Legion, and as such I have a large quantity of undivided units, as well as a large amount of units that relate to each of the Chaos Gods (cults, icons, and Lords), but hey, Black Legion could always do that. I have also just made a 2000pt World Eaters list. This list is what I like to think of as 'pure' i.e. not Khorne? not welcome. Sure our fellow Joah (and many others) can take whatever units he likes and still call it World Eaters (many people do). I may never accept that, in fact if the unit isn't screaming its head off and waving a chain-weapon about wildly, I never will accept it. But what does that matter? We are all Chaos (thanks to the new dex) and we can all take the same stuff. We don't see Blood Angels players harranging each other about 'not being a true Blood Angel because you don't have any assault squads', so why do we start doing it now. Like a Blood Angel without an Assault Element, a World Eaters army with other units beside Khornate ones seems odd, but hey, its up to the player to judge, not his of her peers.

 

That is my two cents on the matter. Now if you'll excuse me, I have some World Eaters Terminators that need my affection...

[Rain]

The issue from a fluff standpoint is not so much analogous to Blood Angels taking or not taking Assault Squads but more like Blood Angels taking Deathwing squads. Legions like the Nights Lords should not have god worshiping units according to the fluff. At all. Anyway, I don't mind if other people do it, but I am bitter that my "pure" Iron Warriors list is becoming much less flexible just because I am trying to remain true to GW's own fluff.

[Playa]

Hey,

 

I wish to share my views with my fellow community in hopes that I may cast certain enlightenment

 

I'd frankly prefer that you didn't lower yourself to educating us, Joah.

You've offered very little evidence to support your brand of "enlightenment".

The poor quality of the Gavdex isn't a matter of opinion - it's a fact admitted by the authors' boss.

 

Black Legion lists were already an option under the Hainesdex, so having the other eight options removed can't be characterized as "liberating".

 

rather than to condemn what has been given to us, praise it for what it is

 

Um, we're condemning the arbitrary removal of Units for which many of us have paid good money.

Whether these models are useless through ignorance or apathy is irrelevant to our feelings on the matter.

Neither excuse is cause for "praise".

 

The mercenary sales pitch of "take whatever Units you want" is the whole of the new dex.

This was a rarely used option in the old dex for good reason.

A reason you have evidently chosen to ignore.

 

accusing your fellow gamers for lack of integrity in following the sacred fluff is *not going to make our game better. If anything, it's only going to cause a rift and suffer for sportsmanship

 

You've got it backward. We're accusing Al and Gav of lack of integrity because they knew nothing of Chaos when they got the nod.

Their research seems to have been limited to what the current Chaos product line was at the time.

Their attempts to integrate these models into a usable Codex were fumblingly amateurish.

 

No evident excuse was made as to why every Chaos player was being *forced* to play Black Legion/ Red Corsairs.

The only explanation for their mixed Mark army lists was to sell all of their models equally to all new players.

This cunnin' plan could only have worked if all of those Units were equally viable choices.

 

They're not. They failed. They failed us. They failed us by naming their book Codex: CSM.

If it had been released as Codex: Renegade Chapters, we wouldn't be having this discussion.

Their crime was invalidating at a stroke the demonstrably superior Hainesdex instead of FAQing it.

 

I can only assume that new players will not give the Gavdex a second glance - it's that bad.

So, Chaos players are bound to be Vet players by definition - and we've got baggage.

Newbies know no better, but we know what we're missing.

 

my New World Eaters with their advanced tactics and tactical prowess have emerged. Composed primarily of veteran warriors of Khorne, this Legion has founded new allegiances with other faces of war such as control freakish lash lords

 

We all saw such examples of tactical brilliance under the Hainesdex, Joah.

WE players simply incorporated Obliterators into their AA-deficient lists.

IME, they then called them "Khornate Black Legion" lists.

 

They wouldn't have *dared* to continue calling them World Eaters around other Legion players.

Of course, now that Legions no longer exist, newbs can call their armies whatever they like.

I'm not ready to praise that, either . . .

 

 

Playa

[refuse]

Do I label you or accuse you for playing your supremacist lists?! Do I say, you kkk racists, how dare you play such an inbred list? Yet, because I am now permitted to field any option from my codex, you call me powergamer, and accuse me of disregarding any fluff.

 

At this point, you seem only to be trying to make off color and out of context statements.

Your posts has already been edited for comments, and in this post you go there again. In addition to the next post being pointless and off topic.

 

You should read the rules:

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/index.p...st&p=977938

 

 

On topic:

Your argument falls apart. Why? Because without fluff, without the rules referencing the fluff and implying it, you don't have 40k. Your take on Angron and the World eaters falls apart. Based on your take, you don't want to play World Eaters, you want to play an army of your design, using the name of World Eaters. The issue isn't "literary freedom", but what is your desire to play World Eaters. They are not the World Eaters of the fluff, they are yours? So why the name? IT would be like fantasy and wanting to use Elf models with an Ork army list. Would anyone say you couldn't, no, but the question is then why do you want to?

 

There are DIYs that use other armies as frame works, and there are specific armies within other armies that use other rules (IG for squats, Death Wing for Elite Terminator units of other armies). But why use World Eaters?

 

Because you are trying to be disruptive. Your posts, use of derogatory terms, use of racial groups and anti-racial groups indicates you are trying to disrupt the conversation. Why call a Tzeentch army World Eaters? Because it will disrupt the conversation. Why post a large Star Wars picture in a Warhammer 40k board, with no text? Because you are being disruptive.

 

The point being, this game is defined by the fluff, the rules and the codecies. The fluff gives continuity and a reason for the codecies to exist within the framework of the rules. Why is there only one army of Terminators and why do they have the restrictions they have? Fluff. Why are the World Eaters composed of Killing Machines, and the Emperor's Children composed of hedonistic warriors? Fluff. Why do you want to put Tzeentch and other armies into a World Eater army? To disrupt.

 

There is Count as, and there are many armies that use other armies rules (Dustwing armies). But the writers usually try to work within the framework of the fluff. You are saying, no fluff, no frame work, I do what I want. Great. And you expect what?

 

 

Your references to tactics in war has nothing to do with what we are discussing. In both of your examples of change in military tactics, the military in question kept their traditions. I.e. Uniforms, rank and structure. And there were internal battles about changing that structure (such as infantry in support of Tanks in WWII vs Tanks in support of infantry in WWI). But that doesn't imply anything with regards to 40k. The tactics and structure of the armies are not based on some whim, or 100 years of human evolution, but instead on 10 Million years. Also, Marines/Chaos Marines do not suffer from tactics.

 

Ultimately no one is going to stop you from playing the way you want. You like "no strings attached, I like to be different" style of play, very loosely coupled with 40k. Great, but 20 years of playing and 20 years of fluff indicate your "background" is yours, and yours alone.

Also, as mentioned by many people, you could do this all before (play the army you are stating, and use your loosely coupled 40k version of World Eaters).

 

I wish to share my views with my fellow community in hopes that I may cast certain enlightenment

If your enlightenment includes images of StarWars, references to smashing people's faces, and references to the things you like to reference, consider me unenlightened.

[Dam13n]

First I would like to say I have found Refuse's posts really interesting. I've been a firm devotee of Chaos

since the 2nd Edition Codex: Chaos, which IMO is still the best written and most enjoyable codex to read

fluff wise. Although the army list wasn't particularly brilliant, but what did I care, I was 10 years old. I

couldn't play 40K to save my life, but loved the stories and the miniatures. (And to be honest, not that

much has changed)

 

I really like the annotations between Classic and Early 20th Century History and Literature and the 40K

universe. It was a direction I would never have thought to go. I may even look up a few of the books Refuse

has referenced when I have the time to devote to a good book.

 

As to the Flaming that is going on, I'm not a Mod, or even the most regular poster, but please try to keep this

to a minimum. It ruins a great arguement when people resort to insults and other rude and abusive tactics

to try and win an arguement that, particularly in this case, no-one can actually win. Everyone is entitled to

their own opinion, ridiculing it just makes whatever arguement you provide look weak.

 

My personal opinion of this current Codex is that it is fundamentally weak, in a great many areas. The army list

comes across as boring and overly simplistic, the fluff is downright painful to read and so many of the great scenarios

and stories of previous Codices have been omitted. Being an Iron Warrior Player for nearly 10 years, and finding

the story about the history between the IW and the Imperial Fists absent and replaced by a very poor 2 paragraphs

of badly written, depthless rubbish was a HUGE disappointment.

 

What I would be overjoyed to see out of a replacement Codex - a consistent background story, covering all the

major factions on 1 world. The 2nd Ed Codex used the Battle For Purgatory as a series of short stories that tied

the entire codex together. Featuring the then Golden Boys of Chaos - The Night Lords, as well as groups of World

Eaters, Emperor's Children and others, it was a terr(or)ific addition to the codex. (As a point of note, not one story

had differing factions fighting alongside each other, they each fought seperate battles. Even though clearly allied by

a powerful Chaos Lord they refused to march shoulder to shoulder, very much in keeping with the fluff)

 

I know I've rambled a bit, but I've also tried to be impartial, if you like the current Codex, more power to you, but I

will always feel as though GW has taken my favourite 40K army, spat on it and ground it into the floor.

 

Laterz...

[Joah from Alberta]

Bha, you're all too serious. You can rebuke and cant alls yous wants, me, I want to dance.

 

Lady C, the pic was from a poster I had while growing up,

 

Cheers,

[the jeske]

'not being a true Blood Angel because you don't have any assault squads', so why do we start doing it no

wll I have yet to see an BA army without Baals , Death Company , named BA characters etc .and all those units are more BA then assault sm used as troops .

Bha, you're all too serious.

that may come from the fact that some people spent time , own money etc to promote and build the w40k world/fanbase etc . Refuse for example is EC . I was one of the people who started to build w40k/WFB/WFRPG in eastern europe [been doing that since 1990] . there are other people here who were tournament orgs at cons[in times when GW products were not main stream] . People that do translation of GW materials etc , etc . And a lot of those people dont like the way GW is dealing with the fluff , the world and the game as a whole . Imagine your not a vet [by GW standarts thats someone who played more then a year] . What does the new dex tell you about chaos or about the legions , about the fluff and history of w40k ?

[Teethgrinder]

I feel it incumbent on me to let everyone know that I know Brother Joah from Alberta from his posts on my forum, WORLDEATERS.net, and I know his take on the World Eaters Legion to be somewhat idiosyncratic when compared with the rest of our members. Probably those here, too. But if Joah, by his own declaration, wants to think that his models (that he has paid for and spent time building and painting) represent a faction of the World Eaters that has chosen to accept worshippers of other Gods and turned their backs on Angron, fair play to him. That's his army. I think he is, in his own rather colourful and philosophical way, pointing out that no one, regardless of their perceived grasp of the background, can force him not to.

 

I would recommend that you accept that, because he has. Those are his New World Eaters. We like him on WE.net. He's a respected member of our community. He has a lot of good stuff to say. But I don't think of my World Eaters as being anything like his.

 

well first of all how can the WE be runing back to the eye when they are inside it ? also angorn has not lead his legion for a long time now . In fact out of all the cult legion primarchs he and fulgrim [who in fact is no longer fulgrim the primarch] are not really interested in the fate of their legions . For me the fluff is something important [i mean why play the game other wise? other firms make better models and am a good sculptor myself , other games have better rules etc].

But this is stated as fact. "Angron hasn't led his Legion for a long time now?" The First War for Armageddon was 40,499. Five hundred years is not 'a long time' by a Daemon or Traitor Legionnaire's perspective. Or the Imperium's. What evidence do you have to say that Angron and Fulgrim don't care about the Legions? That's your opinion, surely (in the face of the fact that Angron has led his Legion to battle with the Imperium at least twice since the Heresy). A lot of "facts" get thrown around on the forums. "Jervis said that this Codex was rubbish," "this Codex was rushed to fill a scheduling gap," "it's against all the older background." I keep seeing these authoritative "facts" about the Studio mixed in with "facts" about the older background which have no substantiation whatsoever. That seems rather dangerous to me.

 

I can't believe that this thread was fundamentally answered by the first to respond, and still the usual suspects have managed to work their New Codex Flogging cut'n'paste magic into it despite having a thread devoted to it for nearly a year now.

 

Jervis did not write this Codex.

 

You can still build Legions.

 

There have never been 'Legion Codexes' to take away.

 

The Legion background still exists.

 

Second edition told us the Traitor Legions were all fragmented by infighting and lack of resources soon after the Heresy.

 

Sacred number-sized units have not been a constant feature of all Chaos Space Marine army lists since the beginning.

 

Khârn and other 'Cult' special characters could originally fight alongside troops other than those of their Legion. They are the outcasts, remember?

 

Second edition had no Legion army lists. A page of background and some painting ideas. The 'glory days' everyone remembers were really not so different to now.

 

Don't believe everything you read in the 'New Codex Flogging' thread.

 

 

 

 

Someone kill this thread, please. It's clearly going nowhere good.

[Lady_Canoness]

Smashing good points Teethginder, and ones that I hold to be true.

 

I don't think that any Codex could look good in the shadow of 3.5 (that was responsible for many good things and bad things alike), and that change is what everyone is riled up about.

[Kaptain Von]

I wish they had at least kept the sacred number rule. At least then the army's would have some fluff.

 

Surely you can still take a unit of nine Thousand Sons, or whatever?

I think what you're really bemoaning is that you don't get a free Aspiring Champion for adhering to a largely superficial aspect of the background.

 

 

Saying that a small skirmish force of 40/50 man has members of 3/4 legions in it is stupid .

 

Well, the Night Lords bought Noise Marines and Khorne Berzerkers with them to Purgatory way back in the second edition Codex, so they were definitely present on the same planet... it's not that much of a leap to assume that all three might have been on the same field.

 

Does 40K have a similar abstraction to WFB when it comes to scale? I ask 'cause there used to be a note in the WFB rules (definitely in fifth edition WFB, possibly sixth too) explaining that your ten models might be a placeholder for a regiment which could 'realistically' be considered to be a hundred strong. Unit sizes were distorted to make the game playable, as were effective ranges of weaponry.

 

 

Second edition had no Legion army lists. A page of background and some painting ideas. The 'glory days' everyone remembers were really not so different to now.

 

I wasn't sure which of your one-liners I agreed with the most, Teethgrinder, but this is the one that I'd like to see more people just try to understand...

[Brother Nihm]

Second edition had no Legion army lists. A page of background and some painting ideas. The 'glory days' everyone remembers were really not so different to now.

 

I wasn't sure which of your one-liners I agreed with the most, Teethgrinder, but this is the one that I'd like to see more people just try to understand...

But they are much different, because we DID have options to 'fluffily' tailor our lists in the form of Daemonic Gifts, Vehicle Upgrades etc.

How can an EC player rules-wise represent a 'sonic choir' army? (modelling+rules issue mostly)

How can a DG player field a true 100% DG army now? (fluff)

The same goes for Tsons, EC, and the WE.

And one from me personally, how can I as a NL player represent the fear and terror aspect - rules wise?

 

 

You seem to forget that the main problem outlined in the stickied rant thread, is the lack of customizability which directly results in some armies not being on par list-wise with the fluff for them.

So no, you cannot still build (all) Legion lists under the new Codex. :blink:

 

 

 

As this thread basically turned into what we have covered in the stickied thread and the relevant questions have been answered for the original poster, I'll close this one and direct the discussion to that topic (link)