Mechanized Tactics

[Wolfsrage]

Well, I've recently made the jump from Death Guard to "regular" Chaos Marines. After picking a new army name, The Afflicted, and painting a few terminators, my list is now good to go.

 

With that said, I want to be sure I'm getting the most out of my army on the table. I was just hoping to get some feedback on basic tactics that you all use with your rhinos and what I am doing right or wrong.

 

To begin, I typically field 30 Chaos Space Marines in Rhinos. I always deploy behind cover as best as I can, and if it's not available, I'll block LOS with a Predator or my Demon Prince (I consider both expendable in comparison to a 200 point squad). I drive up on first turn, and do one of three things depending on the situation.

 

(1) If I'm not close enough to the enemy but they have a lot of heavy fire, I'll form a wall with all 3 rhinos and hide my entire army behind them. I also pop smoke on the rhinos. The Predators move out and fire, and the Demon Prince hops wherever needed. This allows my 3 big targets to draw fire, hopefully away from the 35 point rhinos. If the rhinos live, they drive around and cause general annoyance, and block LOS from my opponent's heavy weapons squad (a tactic I find very effective against my buddies foot Eldar). If the rhinos are destroyed, I simply walk over them, using the cover saves as necessary. I generally prefer to rapid fire an enemy in the face than charge.

 

(2) If I'm close enough to the enemy, I'll drop out in front of the rhinos, allowing all 30 Marines to unleash (and receive return fire). The Rhinos almost always live in this situation, and then can proceed to cause more annoyance. The squads will then begin advancing while unleashing pistols / bolters and charging as able.

 

(3) If I don't think my Rhinos will be taking much fire but I still have quite a distance to cover, I'll pop smoke and hope for the best. This seems to work well, even when the Rhinos are immobilised. It can't be penetrated, so the squad can't be forced to disembark, and entangle hasn't been a problem yet.

 

What do you all think? Am I doing anything wrong? I basically rely on target saturation to get my Marines where I want them. I typically drive up one side of the board, while the Predators move up the middle.

[kr00tman]

Yea your doing it right, make sure the rhino squads take 2 special weps, either flamers or plasma guns. Also you should make them plegue marines and 1k sons as they are the strongest troops you can put in a rhino. Consider raptor squads with the mark of slaanesh to back up your rhino squads along with your princes in assault. And your rhinos will be taking a ton of fire make sure they have extra armor as you are going to need to move them alot. Take a 4th rhino and a vindi if you can as well they really help.

[Deneris]

Or the ever-popular Havoc squad with four assault weapons never ceases to annoy my opponents. And there's the fact that Havocs seem to be great fighters in Close Combat....

 

And yes, you're doing "mechanized" very well, even better than some I've seen...

 

I use my Thousand Sons in rhinos and usually do the "Drive up and shoot" followed by any close-combat support units to take on any survivors.

[chillin]

Certainly sounds like you're doing it right.

I might suggest using x armor, sometimes it doesn't matter, other times it makes all the difference.

Another thing I'll throw out there (you might already do it b/c it sounds like your tactics are solid)

I sometimes move rinos from cover to cover (against really shooty armies) even if it's not the most direct route to where I need to go. (that being said you don't want to go totally out of your way just to get in cover)

[Wolfsrage]

Thanks for all the supportive feedback! It's been a difficult army for me to master. I play Tau regularly and FoF, but with Chaos I just couldn't seem to get it down. I used to have a really bad habit of simply driving up, dropping out, firing, and then dying! I've definitely learned now exactly what to do in which situation. Being willing to lose the tanks / MC for the greater good has helped me a lot as well (I'm not saying I'm suicidal, but you get my drift).

 

As for what I take, the list is here. However, my point wasn't what is so much IN the rhinos as what you do with them! I did post this in Chaos Ascendant for a reason y'know. :)

 

How well do rhinos work for you when you try to drop squads into cover? I can't ever seem to get this to work. Suggestions? The cover simply isn't in the right spot! That and when they do drop in cover, the squads that aren't in cover simply take all the flak! I'd rather not expose myself to ANY enemy fire (given the chance), and having one squad in cover with the other 2 behind rhinos doesn't work very well for me either.

 

What do you all use for backup? As you can see, I use 4 Terminators and 10 Lesser Demons. What are your support squads of choice? For a mech army, surely these are key?

[Joah from Alberta]

When you set up for deployment, always look at you deployment zones as blocks and firing lanes. Once you begin to look at the board in this manner, you can determine sequence of deployment and then sequence of movement. By virtue of this method, you can master tactics such as using terrain to your advantage and your opponents disadvantage.

 

I'm http://www.wizards.com/magic/images/whatcolor_blue.jpg as well, but definitely a happy http://www.wizards.com/magic/images/whatcolor_blue.jpg.

[Allerka]

It's pretty much the same deal I use for my Chaos, as well, three squads in Rhinos (one CSMs, one bBerserkers, and one counts-as 1K Sons squad), though I use a Defiler instead of a DP. It still makes for a really scary distraction. I'd suggest EA on the Rhinos as a standard, to make sure they have as much forward momentum as possible. As long as you're using cover effectively, at least 1-2 squads will make it into assault by turn 3 at the latest, and that's where you can really tear them up.

 

I took two melta-guns in my CSM squad, but that was more for the assault/anti-tank properties. If you just want to unload and fire tons of death into them, then take a charge, then a couple of plasma guns might be the way to go.

 

Also, another unit I've found VERY effective is a squad of Chosen, with four plasma guns, a missile launcher, and an Icon of Nurgle, infiltrated into some sort of cover. T5 with a cover save and a 24" threat range makes for a VERY deadly unit, and then they have to withstand a hail of plasma shots if they want to assault you, which is about the only way that unit will be dislodged (or they devote their entire army's shooting to you, which is about what it'll take), and, even then, you still have two attacks a piece! It's 310 points for the squad, but trust me, they're worth it.

 

You're on the right track with your tactics, I almost never lose with my army, which fights nearly the same.

[Cale]

You're doing some things wrong.

 

First off, you're starting in your Rhinos. Don't. You might not win first turn, and you never want to spend an enemy's shooting phase in your Rhino without smoke up. This means that you should be hopping into your Rhinos on turn one and that means that you aren't hopping out of them on turn one. Hop in, move, throw up smoke. This should be your first turn with mechanized infantry in just about every game except those where you plan to stand and shoot primarily (if you're playing against nids, for instance).

 

Second, it's rarely a good idea to hide shooty guys behind Rhinos. The Rhino's destruction will just result in your shooty guys effectively losing a turn of shots while they struggle over the wreckage and into a firing position--and immobilized Rhinos are even more of an obstacle. It might seem neat to hide your shooty guys, but remember--shooty guys can't shoot if they're hidden, and it's virtually always better to shoot and be shot than do nothing at all.

 

Hiding assaulty guys behind Rhinos, though, is often a good idea--especially if they move as jump infantry.

 

Also note that the advent of Fifth Edition is going to change vehicle tactics, especially those of the mechanized army, drastically--so asking advice about this now is probably not the best plan =P. Wait till fifth comes out, then rethink your approach entirely from the context of the new rules.

[Wolfsrage]

First off, you're starting in your Rhinos. Don't. You might not win first turn, and you never want to spend an enemy's shooting phase in your Rhino without smoke up. This means that you should be hopping into your Rhinos on turn one and that means that you aren't hopping out of them on turn one. Hop in, move, throw up smoke. This should be your first turn with mechanized infantry in just about every game except those where you plan to stand and shoot primarily (if you're playing against nids, for instance).

 

You seem to have inferred that I start inside Rhinos every game (which I don't), and that I always deploy them in the open. I always get behind terrain and as we set up terrain ourselves, alternating placing pieces, I never find this a problem. When this is unavailable I do your aforementioned strategy.

 

Second, it's rarely a good idea to hide shooty guys behind Rhinos. The Rhino's destruction will just result in your shooty guys effectively losing a turn of shots while they struggle over the wreckage and into a firing position--and immobilized Rhinos are even more of an obstacle. It might seem neat to hide your shooty guys, but remember--shooty guys can't shoot if they're hidden, and it's virtually always better to shoot and be shot than do nothing at all.

 

If that is your opinion, then I respectfully disagree. I understand your thinking, but I'm not going to get in front of the Rhino when I'm so far out of range.

 

Also note that the advent of Fifth Edition is going to change vehicle tactics, especially those of the mechanized army, drastically--so asking advice about this now is probably not the best plan =P. Wait till fifth comes out, then rethink your approach entirely from the context of the new rules.

 

I doubt things will change too much. I'll have to reconfigure my Predators most likely. I'll just go Autocannon / Lascannon Sponsons. Waste first turn moving into position and then sit the rest of the game probably. <_< As long as Rhinos can move twelve and have their troops get out, I'm good. I doubt they'll change the fact that you can get out and shoot. They might change smoke, but I never relied on it too much anyway. I actually HATE hiding inside a Rhino with smoke as my primary opponent is an Eldar foot-slogging army that fields an unholy amount of scatter lasers.

[Cale]

You seem to have inferred that I start inside Rhinos every game (which I don't), and that I always deploy them in the open. I always get behind terrain and as we set up terrain ourselves, alternating placing pieces, I never find this a problem. When this is unavailable I do your aforementioned strategy.

 

This is why I inferred that you were starting in your Rhinos:

-In general, due to the Entangled rule, it is best to spend as little time inside your Rhinos as possible.

-You were discussing where to disembark from your Rhinos.

-If you are disembarking from your Rhinos on the first turn, you started in them (a bad idea).

-If you are disembarking from your Rhinos on the second turn, and there isn't anyone within rapid fire range, you've played remarkably poorly. There should be someone close enough to shoot, and you should be shooting them (i.e, you shouldn't be disembarking behind them, which is an option you discussed.)

-If you are disembarking from your Rhinos on the third turn, you have almost certainly stayed in them too long.

 

So, yes. My presumption was that you were making the least egregious error of the three: starting your guys in the Rhinos.

 

Also, obviously you should try to deploy your Rhinos out of LOS from your opponent's heavy guns. Still, I play with a lot of terrain on my tables, and I know that actually preventing all your rhinos from getting shot is almost impossible. They're really big, and mobile enemy guns rarely have trouble gaining line of sight to them. If you really do have a Rhino which can't be shot, then go ahead and start your guys embarked. Odds are, though, that most if not all of your Rhinos are going to be potential targets no matter how well you hide them at the beginning--and even if they might get shot, you should not start guys in them.

 

 

If that is your opinion, then I respectfully disagree. I understand your thinking, but I'm not going to get in front of the Rhino when I'm so far out of range.

 

If you're disembarking while far out of range, you're making another, far more serious mistake.

 

Every game in which you are using your Rhinos to rush forward you should only disembark on turn one unless you have shots (and if you don't disembark, use smoke) and you should always have shots on the dismebark in turn two. If you're out of smoke and you can't get shots by disembarking, odds are you've just been playing badly. There're rarely good reasons for dismebarking behind your Rhinos (and for the most part they're limited to situations where you'll be able to charge on the next turn from your dismebarked position and you don't need the shots which you might otherwise be able to take) and the reason you've proposed is a bad one.

 

Perhaps my criticism was off the mark, though. I wasn't suggesting that you hop out in front of your Rhinos into a position from which you can't take shots. I was suggesting that if you wouldn't be in a position from which you could take shots, you should stay in the Rhino and pop smoke.

 

 

I doubt things will change too much. I'll have to reconfigure my Predators most likely. I'll just go Autocannon / Lascannon Sponsons. Waste first turn moving into position and then sit the rest of the game probably. <_< As long as Rhinos can move twelve and have their troops get out, I'm good. I doubt they'll change the fact that you can get out and shoot. They might change smoke, but I never relied on it too much anyway. I actually HATE hiding inside a Rhino with smoke as my primary opponent is an Eldar foot-slogging army that fields an unholy amount of scatter lasers.

 

Getting rid of the Entanglement rule is going to be key. All of a sudden, having your transport blow out from underneath you isn't a serious set-back at all. Riding around in your transports and shooting out the tops is going to actually be a viable strategy, instead of a disaster waiting to happen. As it is now, you want to spend as little time in your transport as possible. Come fifth, you'll really be spending a lot more time in your transport, because the penalty for being in it when it's destroyed will be so drastically reduced.

[Wolfsrage]

-If you are disembarking from your Rhinos on the first turn, you started in them (a bad idea).

-If you are disembarking from your Rhinos on the second turn, and there isn't anyone within rapid fire range, you've played remarkably poorly. There should be someone close enough to shoot, and you should be shooting them (i.e, you shouldn't be disembarking behind them, which is an option you discussed.)

-If you are disembarking from your Rhinos on the third turn, you have almost certainly stayed in them too long.

 

Perhaps because I use the old Rhinos still I have an easier time hiding them. The things are practically the size of a pack of playing cards. :jaw: I completely understand your logic though. I just tend to start in them first turn, given the chance. Obviously sometimes I can't if the opponent has skimmers / whatnot. I don't think you can have a blanket statement of "never start them in Rhinos on first turn" or "always start them in Rhinos first turn." I think we mutually understand that you have to adapt depending entirely on the terrain & your opponent (which changes every game of course). I may have to re-evaluate how often I start in them though. I'll consider this.

 

If you're disembarking while far out of range, you're making another, far more serious mistake.

 

I don't disembark 30" away... probably more like 16-18". That way I'll be relatively sure to get into range next turn.

 

Perhaps my criticism was off the mark, though. I wasn't suggesting that you hop out in front of your Rhinos into a position from which you can't take shots. I was suggesting that if you wouldn't be in a position from which you could take shots, you should stay in the Rhino and pop smoke.

 

Understood. I'm just terrified of hiding in those flaming metal death traps; I'd rather get behind them and let them pop smoke (and assuming they live then they drive out of the way). If they blow up, I'm better off (per the current Entanglement rules). Again, my most common opponent can lay down approximately 30 STR 6 shots per turn. I don't do this if I'm only facing a couple lascannons.

 

Getting rid of the Entanglement rule is going to be key. All of a sudden, having your transport blow out from underneath you isn't a serious set-back at all. Riding around in your transports and shooting out the tops is going to actually be a viable strategy, instead of a disaster waiting to happen. As it is now, you want to spend as little time in your transport as possible. Come fifth, you'll really be spending a lot more time in your transport, because the penalty for being in it when it's destroyed will be so drastically reduced.

 

Agreed & duly noted. We can but see. I hope you're right about it disappearing.