Heavy Support in 5th Ed

[the jeske]

Three predators does cost more than three obliterators, but they still make for affordable, reliable, mobile anti-tank units.

what weapon options do you mean ? 3 las +extra armor ? and its not mobile in the 5th as . an oblit is mobile a pred if it moves shots with 1 lascanon .

also I find that there is just with the new scout/infiltrate rule 3 tanks + rhinos just dont fit on a normal tables . at least one gets blown up really fast [thats considering there is enough cover for the other two] . I find the 4oblits +dakka pred the most optimal build for chaos in the 5th , it served me well durning the testing . the 9 oblits /3 preds are to fixed on either anti tank or have huge problems with horde armies , they also need the lash too much and I dont like[or should I rather say I find them not good enough ] armies that have to use a certain psychic power to win .

[Cale]

No, I mean predators with just a twin-linked lascannon--no sponsons. Extra armour is an obvious waste of points, though Daemonic Posession might be worth blowing some spare points on.

 

I think it's the right build for the mechanized army in fifth (not necessarily for a non-mech army)

[Playa]

Hey,

 

I mean predators with just a twin-linked lascannon

 

So, just its main gun, then? I thought they couldn't be fired if the Pred moved over 6in.

 

Daemonic Posession might be worth blowing some spare points on

 

But now it's a large, 125pt AV10 target with one BS3 gun it can't always use.

If BS4 Power Fist Termis could take a Lascannon as an option, they'd cost 75pts.

If you could load them up with a pile of secondary weapons too, you'd be crazy *not* to take them.

 

Obviously, players with Preds are going to use them, and they're not *bad*.

It's just that the Gavdex makes many FOC selections seem like no-brainers.

That's why players prefer the Obliterator over the Pred - it's nothing personal.

 

Obliterators are just the no-brainer choice for a Chaos HS slot.

 

 

Playa

[Cale]

First off, the Predator does have AV 13, and 11 on the side. If you're getting shot in the back in anything other than the most rare and extreme cases, you're screwing up--and a unit's value shouldn't be judged by it's performance in the hands of bad players =P.

 

Secondly, the Lascannon can only shoot if the tank doesn't move more than 6", but so what? That's how it was in fourth edition, too. The fact remains that the Predator can move and shoot its main gun. With Daemonic Posession, it will always be able to shoot it's main gun unless, once again, you decide to play poorly and move it too far for no good reason. Of course, you might have a reason for moving it that far which is worth giving up it's shot, but that extra bit of utility, the ability to move over 6" if you want it to, is just another leg up on Obliterators. Obliterators are much slower.

 

Thirdly, while the Lascannon is BS:3, it's still twin-linked. That means it still hits more often than the Obliterator's shot.

 

I certainly do like Obliterators. I never said otherwise. The fact remains that the lascannon predator is a pretty comparable unit, which has the added advantage of being another tank in a mechanized army.

 

You need to sit down and actually read the rules before you post this kind of stuff, playa--the vast majority of the position you present above is just based on blatant mis-representations.

[the jeske]

ok so pretty much a naked pred , well with the speed most armies move in the 5th its really hard to hide a tank and in HtH they die [just like oblits ]. oblits are easier to hide and protect from those scout/infiltration units and whats important they can deep strike . + PM can have icons and guide them , they also have a better co-operation with lash thx to plasma canons and flamers , meltas [again weapon of choice for tanks in the open in the 5th] . a single lascanon even when its twin linked just doesnt cut it for me [specially with the cover saves everywhere ] . you can say that its the player thats more important , well I think that a skilled player will get more out of oblits then out of predators .

[styx]

The Oblits have it better IMO, they not only get the icon for deep striking, a variety of weapons, fairly good armor saves and inv save, power fists vs anything without a weapons skill is going to be nasty now vs armor 10, plus they get the benefit of cover saves using screening correctly.

 

A tank is just that, a larger target, easier to single out, one bad hit and poof. You are out a huge # of points. It takes at least 3 double T shots to kill 3 Oblits and that is assuming they fail their Inv save or cover save.

[Cale]

It takes two shots of at least strength eight (which is double the toughness of an Obliterator) to kill 225 points worth of Predators =P--and the Predators are not only immune to a large number of things that can kill Obliterators, but they're far less likely to die to lascannons than are Obliterators, as well.

 

As I said, I like Obliterators. They're great. The fact remains, though, that they're just not significantly worse than Obliterators at the important things (like killing MCs and vehicles).

 

There are a lot of things that people say which sort of make it sound like Predators are a lot worse (see a some of the posts above for examples) but most of these claims prove to be misleading or flat-out false under scrutiny.

[Tfcdogbert]

Predators are worse than oblits at four things really, on average, and thats flexibility, a dedicated dakka pred is better anti horde but an oblit is neraly as good and can do anti armour, same with an LC pred an obliterator is better as anti horde.

 

Obliterators second better thing is anti TEQ and MEQ with their plasma cannons than an LC or AC/HB predator (assuming 2 oblits for a pred).

 

Third is that they are easier to hide than predators.

 

Fourth is that you can DS obliterators, their moblility is better too as they can move and fire.

 

Predators have better anti small arms vunlerability, they are the cheapest way of getting 3's lcs and hence are better at cracking AV14 than oblits, they can tank shock too, and are impossible to crack in CC without meltabombs and fists for most races and can sheild units when they lose their weapons.

[Cale]

I would line those up differently

 

Predator: 105 points (twin-linked lascannon, no sponsons)

Obliterators: 75 or 150 points

 

1a: Predator is better anti-tank than one obliterator

1b: Predator is worse anti-tank than two obliterators

 

2: Obliterators are better anti-infantry (including anti-meq) than a predator

 

3: Predator is more mobile than any number of obliterators (it can always move six and shoot, or move twelve and not shoot. Obliterators might move six and then shoot, and can give up their shots for another d6)

 

4: Obliterators are easier to hide than a Predator

 

5: Predator can screen other units better than any number of obliterators.

 

6: Predator is harder to kill than either one or two obliterators (and I'm not sure how it stacks up to three, but for the price of three you get two predators--so that's kind of moot)

 

7: Obliterators can deep-strike

 

So, if we discount points 1a and 1b (they show that a predator stacks up about right against obliterators for its cost) we're left with six points. The Predator wins on three and the Obliterators win on three. That's not bad at all.

[Tfcdogbert]

I take both :P and in gameplay they have stacked up quite equally, but in 5th that will change, so i think one of us should report back when 5ths out which works better on the tabletop.

[Seahawk]

I also use both. My HS section of nearly all games includes 2 obliterators, a predator ac/lc, and a defiler. Sometimes I swap the obliterators for havocs. I just can't wait for the new damage tables.

[Lord Doyok]

Predators all the way.. all the way..

[Mr W]

Only main gun? Why not consider taking 2 LC in sponsons and AC as a main gun? If you move you still can choose what to fire, if you are stationery - you fire all. And the price is 130 points.

Not bad IMHO

[Smurfalypse]

I would line those up differently

 

Predator: 105 points (twin-linked lascannon, no sponsons)

Obliterators: 75 or 150 points

 

1a: Predator is better anti-tank than one obliterator

1b: Predator is worse anti-tank than two obliterators

 

2: Obliterators are better anti-infantry (including anti-meq) than a predator

 

3: Predator is more mobile than any number of obliterators (it can always move six and shoot, or move twelve and not shoot. Obliterators might move six and then shoot, and can give up their shots for another d6)

 

4: Obliterators are easier to hide than a Predator

 

5: Predator can screen other units better than any number of obliterators.

 

6: Predator is harder to kill than either one or two obliterators (and I'm not sure how it stacks up to three, but for the price of three you get two predators--so that's kind of moot)

 

7: Obliterators can deep-strike

 

So, if we discount points 1a and 1b (they show that a predator stacks up about right against obliterators for its cost) we're left with six points. The Predator wins on three and the Obliterators win on three. That's not bad at all.

 

 

Versatility is the greatest asset that a unit can have in the game. The fact that the single lascannon predator is just pointless vs troop units and the obliterator doesnt break strike vs them easilly gives the oblit an edge in the scope of an overall game. Your point is basically saying you are paying for a mobile screen that can take a pop shot vs vehicles. I would rather have oblit's who can deepstrike with multi-meltas, twin linked flamers, twin linked plasma guns, ect ect...They always move a d6, no chance of getting stunned or shaken, no chance of getting immobilized (though i suppose a move of an inch might suck ;)), the ability to adapt a weapon to handle ANY situation. The pred with a single weapon just doesnt even come close to standing up to the vaule of a single oblit.

 

Now having said that, a pred designed to destroy something specific is MUCH MUCH better for its job than two or three oblits. A dakka pred with a havoc who manages to get good terrain and unload its payload onto an enemy ground unit is much better than anything a few oblits can dish out vs them. Ditto goes for a lascannon pred who manages to do the same vs a vehicle.

 

So basically its a preference of versatility or a specialist, and each player will have his own preference.

[the jeske]

I would line those up differently

 

Predator: 105 points (twin-linked lascannon, no sponsons)

Obliterators: 75 or 150 points

 

1a: Predator is better anti-tank than one obliterator . yes but the oblit is 25pts cheaper

1b: Predator is worse anti-tank than two obliterators

 

2: Obliterators are better anti-infantry (including anti-meq) than a predator

 

3: Predator is more mobile than any number of obliterators (it can always move six and shoot, or move twelve and not shoot. Obliterators might move six and then shoot, and can give up their shots for another d6) well thats only true if you dont count the fact that oblits can deep strike . this option dramaticly changes they anti tank [easier to get a side or back shot or even a shot from a side not shielded by terrain ] .

 

4: Obliterators are easier to hide than a Predator

 

5: Predator can screen other units better than any number of obliterators. and what kind of units should long range support units screen in the 5th ? havocks , but then its blocks line of sight for them ? if they drive 12" to the front with the extra speed of units now they can get assaulted and thats death for tanks in the 5th

6: Predator is harder to kill than either one or two obliterators (and I'm not sure how it stacks up to three, but for the price of three you get two predators--so that's kind of moot) . in the open yes . but a single dead oblits also costs less then a predator so one can not expect for it to survive as much shoting .

 

7: Obliterators can deep-strike

 

So, if we discount points 1a and 1b (they show that a predator stacks up about right against obliterators for its cost) we're left with six points. The Predator wins on three and the Obliterators win on three. That's not bad at all.

also you dont take in to the account that oblits work better with other chaos units then predators [a screen of PM's , lash prince etc ].

[Cale]

well thats only true if you dont count the fact that oblits can deep strike . this option dramaticly changes they anti tank [easier to get a side or back shot or even a shot from a side not shielded by terrain ] .

 

You'll note that I gave the obliterators credit for their ability to deep strike. Deep strike is a placement option--it doesn't help them maneuver on the table. Predators still clearly win the mobility catagory--and obliterators have better deployment options. I gave each their due. This objection is moot.

 

and what kind of units should long range support units screen in the 5th ? havocks , but then its blocks line of sight for them ? if they drive 12" to the front with the extra speed of units now they can get assaulted and thats death for tanks in the 5th

 

Rhinos and guys hopping out of Rhinos. Short Daemon Princes. What else is there in a mech army? Obviously you don't screen your devs--but, frankly, you probably shouldn't even have devs. Again, an objection which proves to have no actual value upon actual observation.

 

also you dont take in to the account that oblits work better with other chaos units then predators [a screen of PM's , lash prince etc ].

 

Oblits work particularly well with plague marines? How? Predators work better with other tanks than obliterators, and I was talking about their use in a mechanized army.

 

...and you're three for three. Wrong on all counts.

[Seahawk]

Whew! So defilers have definitely become my #1 at the moment. I played two games of 5th last night, and it cleaned house. The first game was objectives, Dawn of War setup. He deployed in a bunker near a table edge, and I set-up as near as I could. Now, with some new rules, you can choose what goes into reserve and what's "nearby." Rserves is normal, but nearby means it comes into play from your table edge on the first turn, not through deep striking or whatever. In Dawn of War, the table edges are the entire back as normal, and halfway up the edges as well.

 

So my defiler was in close combat on turn 1! So awesome! It blew the bunker which killed two henchmen, slaughtered a squad of 10 grey knights (since glancing hits do jack squat to it now), crushed the daemon-hammering Inquisitor lord and his retinue, and took no damage in return.

 

In my second game (Dawn of War objectives again), it pounced on a squad of Necron warriors sitting on an objective turn 1 again, killing them all by running them down, and destroyed a squad of 10 immortals with flames and close combat (the remaining 5 fled off the board) by the second turn before getting immobilized by destroyers and then wrecked by a lord with a warscythe. Still, it lasted to the 4th turn.

 

Basically, zounds! Defilers got immensely more durable in this edition, and I'm psyched to build and paint my second one sitting in it's box for more mayhem!

[the jeske]

You'll note that I gave the obliterators credit for their ability to deep strike. Deep strike is a placement option--it doesn't help them maneuver on the table. Predators still clearly win the mobility catagory--and obliterators have better deployment options. I gave each their due. This objection is moot.

:) it doesnt help them maneuver ?? droping behind or on the side of a tank /troops formation to deny it cover is not maneuvering ?? so obel or the infiltration rule is not greater maneuverabilty too?

Rhinos and guys hopping out of Rhinos. Short Daemon Princes. What else is there in a mech army? Obviously you don't screen your devs--but, frankly, you probably shouldn't even have devs. Again, an objection which proves to have no actual value upon actual observation.

again so you you put rhinos that are generally full of obejctive takers , behind predators ? why ? to give your opponent more time to counter the rhino units and give them more chance to blow up your hvy support ? and lets better not go in to the model size category . I have seen my share of strech limo rhino with banners on top[making them twice as tall] . same thing can be done oblits . In fact using the "counts as " rule so like by some people you could use nurglins instead of oblits [it's fair game as long the base is the same size ] .

 

Oblits work particularly well with plague marines? How? Predators work better with other tanks than obliterators, and I was talking about their use in a mechanized army.

because unlike the preds the PM can shield the oblits [and again if we are talking about resizing them they can make them out of LoS even ] .

[Maladon]

FnP is going to make plagues vunerable now, since now its AP1, AP2 weapons doesn't give them the FnP save.

 

@Seahawk, so the defiler is going to rule now, good news indeed! may need to put another one together.

[Seahawk]

Here is the business end of my defiler that people suddenly see appearing from the flanks, right in their face...I'd be scared too.

 

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v232/veritas117/100_3490.jpg

[Playa]

Hey, Cale

 

I supplied facts to support my opinion. If your opinion is equally fact-based we're having a discussion.

If your opinion is not fact-based, you're posting from prejudice, and I'll just stop replying.

 

First off, the Predator does have AV 13, and 11 on the side. If you're getting shot in the back in anything other than the most rare and extreme cases, you're screwing up--and a unit's value shouldn't be judged by it's performance in the hands of bad players

 

So I was *not* mistaken in asserting that AV10 is a weakness in the Pred. That's a fact, right?

Isn't it also a fact that this is a weakness not shared by Obliterators? Why yes - that's a fact too.

I consider your claim that Pred weaknesses are only a problem for poor players a misdirection.

 

Don't all players' Preds have the same rear AV? Yes.

 

As well say that Preds that have to move over 6in were obviously Deployed poorly.

Therefore, Preds always shoot, since bad examples can't be used.

Prejudicial opinion. Objection overruled.

 

Secondly, the Lascannon can only shoot if the tank doesn't move more than 6", but ... that extra bit of utility, the ability to move over 6" if you want it to, is just another leg up on Obliterators. Obliterators are much slower.

 

A leg up? On small, highly armoured move-and-shoot BS4 Lascannon/ Multimelta models at 60% the cost?

No, mobility is always to be desired, but a Pred is no Transport. Losing move-and-shoot is a weakness in a Tank.

Always-move-and-shoot Blitters can DS over 6ft at Deployment. This is an easily verifiable fact.

 

Here's another: Preds can't manage that distance the whole game. Bug <-> Feature Voodoo. Objection overruled.

 

Thirdly, while the Lascannon is BS:3, it's still twin-linked. That means it still hits more often than the Obliterator's shot

 

No, one TLLC shot hits more often than *one* Obliterator's shot. I get five Blitters to your three Preds.

At a guess, Mathhammer won't support your, er, optimism. Disingenuous. Objection overruled.

 

I certainly do like Obliterators. I never said otherwise. The fact remains that the lascannon predator is a pretty comparable unit, which has the added advantage of being another tank in a mechanized army

 

So now it's "pretty comparable in a Mechanised Army", is it? But not "the best heavy option for an infantry based army"?

 

What do you guys think will be the best heavy option for an infantry based army in the new fifth edition

 

My post was an on-topic response to the OP, not a personal attack on you.

 

You need to sit down and actually read the rules before you post this kind of stuff

 

In future, just presume that posters have. Where factual errors are made, surely they can easily be remedied with page references.

 

Don't malign the reading comprehension of others unless you're on *very* firm ground, Cale.

One does not gain the moral highground by simply pitting prejudice against reason.

If you like the Unit because you love the models, that's fine - for you.

 

Are Blitters perfect? No. Far more desirable than Preds in an infantry-based army? Yes. Objection overruled.

 

the vast majority of the position you present above is just based on blatant mis-representations

 

What position? Oh, you mean this bit?

 

If BS4 Power Fist Termis could take a Lascannon as an option, they'd cost 75pts.

If you could load them up with a pile of secondary weapons too, you'd be crazy *not* to take them.

 

That's my favorite part of the whole post - it lists the facts upon which I based my opinion.

You have shown factual basis for contradicting neither, instead using hypocrisy and ad hominem.

 

All objections overruled.

 

For the record, you're five for five.

 

 

Playa

[Dam13n]

I personally put the adv/dis at this:

 

Oblits: Versatile but Vulnerable to Str 8+ AP2 Weapons (and how many of them are there??) I have a unit of

3 in my (currently) small IW army, and provided I place them well when I deploy them, they do pretty well.

 

Havoks: Potentially versatile, but you really don't want them to be. Either HB+AC for anti-horde/light vehicles,

or ML+LC for anti-tank/MEQ/TEQ. More bodies per buck and just as easy to hide as Oblits so ?more survivable?

 

Predator: I see Cale's point on just taking the turret, with sponson LC going up to 60 points, I'd rather take just

the turret LC and maybe a Havok Launcher for anti-horde bashing. But judging by the way that vehicles are

going in 5th edition, I just wouldn't want to take one. I would much rather go for an infantry heavy army.

 

Vindicator: With the new "Pie-plate of doom" rules, I suddenly feel like adding one of these. The potential of being

able to get an entire unit under a Str 10 AP2 template is just too good to pass up. Looking at the vehicle damage

chart a Str 10 ordinance shot will be pretty effective (if it hits) and vs hordes it's still pretty effective.

 

Defiler: Hmmm, I envisage one with Twin-linked Lascannons and an extra CCW, a true "jack of all trades" that will

be a little more difficult to kill/slow down and can pack a significant punch just about anywhere. It does weigh in at

170pts but WTH, BC for anti-horde, T-l LC for anti-tank and it can move 6, run D6 and still charge thanks to Fleet, OW!

 

Land Raider: 220pts seems tempting, and only weapons with strength 9+ or weapons which roll 2D6 for armour

penetration stand a good chance of killing it, but if it moves it can only fire one of it's guns... I know it can transport 10

Marines or 5 Termies, but it doesn't really cut it under 5th Ed rules for me, which is annoying as I happen to have one

already painted... :)

 

If I were filling 3 HS slots I would take:

1 - 3 Oblits/8 Havoks

2 - Vindicator

3 - Defiler

 

And no, I wouldn't take Lash, as 1 - I don't like it, 2 - It's doesn't fit the fluff of MY army, 3 - I'd rather take the MOT and

the Bolt of Change (if you've seen my IW, you'll know they have a Tzeentchian "leaning" already, might as well continue

it, and keep to a fluffy army whilst doing so, another Str 8 shot, yes please)

 

Laterz...

[Seahawk]

Oblits: Versatile but Vulnerable to Str 8+ AP2 Weapons (and how many of them are there??) I have a unit of

3 in my (currently) small IW army, and provided I place them well when I deploy them, they do pretty well.

 

To be fair on this point, Obliterators are actually vulnerable to Str 3+ AP3> weapons and close combat, while predators are vulnerable to Str 7+, AP 2+, and close combat. At least, well-used (I assume both are) this is the case. Poorly used, both will die fast. It's that simple. But the strength values differ wildly.

 

My opinion on deep strike? It's not a form of manueverability, rather a different form of deployment. Wherever they land S&P obliterators now take little further part in the game outside of the area they arrived in. Manueverability is being able to go everywhere fast at any time.

 

However, pertaining to the original idea of which would be better in an all-infantry list, obliterators are, obviously. With more vehicles, predators tend to be better choices.

[chillin]

All argueing aside, I think the point of Cale and others is not that preds are better then oblits, but that oblits are a good option with pros and some cons, but preds are ALSO and good option with pros and some cons, and I agree. I take oblits in every game, I also take a dakka pred or a HB/AC havocs squad in all but the smallest (<1000pts) games. No one will ever convience me that oblits are better in every way and against every enemy then a pred. Just as 1 example, I have killed an oblit with HB fire, a HB can not hurt a pred. With the 5 ed rules I think preds and all vehicles will become an even better option (then they are now, not a better opt. then oblits). I think sometimes the real point gets lost or forgotten or pushed aside when the conversation becomes more about the arguement then the orig. point.

[Loketh]

But what happens when there's need for mobility? (objectives, Line of Sight, threat response)

 

Objectives don't matter anymore for HS :unsure: , as all they can do is contest em. Aren't Oblits still Slow and Purposeful? How does that make them mobile, at least after you've deep striked 'em in and need them to do something else?

 

I play Iron Warriors, but I will never play Obliterators. I dunno, just don't like the fluff for them I guess, and they've never been too interesting for me.