Heavy Support in 5th Ed

[chillin]

As far as movement goes, a pred can move 12" and pop smk. in order to contest an objective or get LoS on something to fire next turn, oblits would take an adverge of 3+ turns to move that 12 " (assuming that the oblits had started on the board or had alreadt DS'ed).

There's another example of a situtation where a pred would be better then an oblit.

[meeper]

While I love the versatility of the obiliterator, I would not trust his deep striking ability without an icon nearby many a battle plan have been completely screwed up by a bad scatter roll leading to the oblits being out of range or completely destroyed. Predators can be decked out enough to resemble obliterators.

 

Without demonic possession, a twin linked lascannon is essentially two lascannons, and with two heavy bolters it can attack hordes at range with more reliability then a plasma cannon (and without the off chance of the oblit being wounded with the gets hot rule).

 

While the predator may not be as good as taking down power and terminator armored opponents, I take that into consideration in my army and put plasma guns around accordingly, my entire army isnt a couple of predators after all!

[the jeske]

oblits being out of range

:P with lascanons ? man you must play on huge tables considering that the avarge scater is 7".

[meeper]

true, but i dont mean with the lascannons, i mean scattering out of effective range of flamers and multmeltas (within the 12 or 6 inch mark for rapid firing as well).

[Seahawk]

I find I'm using the shorter ranged weapons more often than lascannons too. It's hard to pass up the twin-linking. Although plasma cannons are nice in 5th.

[the jeske]

true, but i dont mean with the lascannons, i mean scattering out of effective range of flamers and multmeltas (within the 12 or 6 inch mark for rapid firing as well).

well if you want to use flamer or melta with oblits why not take two 6/8 man raptor squads [as hth becomes a better option for power armored armies in the 5th] . 12" move d6 run 3"from icon and 1" extra for the base of the first oblit should work at least for melta [and thats if the oblits show on turn 2].

[meeper]

but the discussion is the versatility of the obliterators, i find their shorter range weapons a waste since im too much of a wuss to deep strike them close enough to the enemy to really get some good use out of their weapons. Its why i find preds a better option by themselves of course, they are really good at a long range and decent enough as the enemy closes.

 

but your raptor flamer and melta options are very very thought provoking :P I would love to work some fast attack in my list to give it more of a punch against hordes.

[Dam13n]

but your raptor flamer and melta options are very very thought provoking :D I would love to work some fast attack in my list to give it more of a punch against hordes.

 

Don't forget bikes... with turbo-boost and a couple of meltaguns and a biker champ with a powerfist, they can spend the game hamstringing your opponents tanks (although they can be a little expensive) remember the icons... Tzeentch will give your bikers a 2+ invulnerable save when they turbo and Nurgle makes them T 4(6), making them very survivable (they only have 1 wound so instant death is somewhat impotent).

 

[FYI, I've replied to your PM meeper, hope the answer is useful.]

 

Laterz...

[River Black]

Tzeentch will give your bikers a 2+ invulnerable save when they turbo and Nurgle makes them T 4(6), making them very survivable (they only have 1 wound so instant death is somewhat impotent).

 

Not for long the Bikes turbo boost save will be a cover save in 5th not an invul

[kuyadz]

GW already released a FAQ and the bikers do not receive +1 invul save for turboboosting. and yeah, once the new rule book is out, its a 3+ cover save. so in a month's time, it will be clear.

[The Branded]

What do you guys think will be the best heavy option for an infantry based army in the new fifth edition. I have always been a fan of the defilers and oblits but now im not to sure if i they will remain a viable option. You guys have any imput on this?

 

Just putting in my two here, and explain why Obliterators are no good.

 

-They can be instantly killed, and at 75 points a model, they will give a lascannon its points back instantaneously.

-They have T4, so they can be taken down by bolter fire easily.

-Their weapons aren't even good. Their lack of Heavy Bolters cripples them, and their plasma cannons are no good without a lash in the army, in which case, you probably have blastmasters and shouldn't need plasma cannons.

-Predators get just as many lascannons, one of them twin-linked, for less than what 3 Oblit lascannons would cost.

-When it comes to 5th ed., vehicles are much harder to kill. It would take less to instantly kill an Obliterator than it would to at least stun a Predator.

 

Anyone want to try and shift reality and convince me Obliterators are worth taking?

[Dam13n]

What do you guys think will be the best heavy option for an infantry based army in the new fifth edition. I have always been a fan of the defilers and oblits but now im not to sure if i they will remain a viable option. You guys have any imput on this?

 

Just putting in my two here, and explain why Obliterators are no good.

 

-They can be instantly killed, and at 75 points a model, they will give a lascannon its points back instantaneously.

-They have T4, so they can be taken down by bolter fire easily.

-Their weapons aren't even good. Their lack of Heavy Bolters cripples them, and their plasma cannons are no good without a lash in the army, in which case, you probably have blastmasters and shouldn't need plasma cannons.

-Predators get just as many lascannons, one of them twin-linked, for less than what 3 Oblit lascannons would cost.

-When it comes to 5th ed., vehicles are much harder to kill. It would take less to instantly kill an Obliterator than it would to at least stun a Predator.

 

I highlighted the key point here, this is heavy support infantry that includes havoks and obliterators... NOT predators. Oblits are a good choice because:

- Plasma Cannons will be awesome in 5th edition with the new blast rules

- A unit of 3 will be able to move and shoot all 3 Heavy weapons, a predator won't... It'll be able to move and fire 1.

- Pred more survivable?? they get hit on the rear armour (10) in close combat, expect to units of fast attack infantry with power fists etc. to make a smoking pile of rubble out of your overpriced pred. Oh and 1 lascannon hit can kill a pred, even in 5th edition, It'll only kill one obliterator. Which any gamer will keep in cover in 5th edition thanks to the improved cover saves. 3+ cover in ruins, thank you...

- Oblits can deep strike and shoot in the same turn, so you can attempt to ensure they get their points back that same turn. eg. within 6" of a Land Raider, 3 twin-linked meltaguns, goodbye 250+ points of tank (the unit costs 225!!) After all they'll most likely hit with all 3, so 3 lots of 8+2D6 armour penetration, well thats 8+7 on average, so thats 3 penetrating hits, they then get +1 on the vehicle damage chart for AP1 meaning they'll destroy on a 4+, well that's goodbye tank...

- A marine with a blast master costs 65 pts and has to be accompanied by at least 4 20pt friends (80 pts) so your blastmaster costs 145pts, 2 oblits cost 150 and get 2 mega-blast weapons for that.

- Lash is broken... even chaos power gamers will admit that... they'll still exploit of course... and if you intend to rely on a broken psychic power to win a game you'll find having a fun game (or even a willing opponent) a little difficult.

 

Anyone want to try and shift reality and convince me Obliterators are worth taking?

 

yes...

[meeper]

I would only take oblits over a pred if i could take all 3 in a squad and not just 2. I dont know, something about taking just two irks me, in a bad way. I worked a pred and oblits into my 2k list and its performs very very well.

[The Branded]

What do you guys think will be the best heavy option for an infantry based army in the new fifth edition. I have always been a fan of the defilers and oblits but now im not to sure if i they will remain a viable option. You guys have any imput on this?

 

Just putting in my two here, and explain why Obliterators are no good.

 

-They can be instantly killed, and at 75 points a model, they will give a lascannon its points back instantaneously.

-They have T4, so they can be taken down by bolter fire easily.

-Their weapons aren't even good. Their lack of Heavy Bolters cripples them, and their plasma cannons are no good without a lash in the army, in which case, you probably have blastmasters and shouldn't need plasma cannons.

-Predators get just as many lascannons, one of them twin-linked, for less than what 3 Oblit lascannons would cost.

-When it comes to 5th ed., vehicles are much harder to kill. It would take less to instantly kill an Obliterator than it would to at least stun a Predator.

 

I highlighted the key point here, this is heavy support infantry that includes havoks and obliterators... NOT predators. Oblits are a good choice because:

- Plasma Cannons will be awesome in 5th edition with the new blast rules

- A unit of 3 will be able to move and shoot all 3 Heavy weapons, a predator won't... It'll be able to move and fire 1.

- Pred more survivable?? they get hit on the rear armour (10) in close combat, expect to units of fast attack infantry with power fists etc. to make a smoking pile of rubble out of your overpriced pred. Oh and 1 lascannon hit can kill a pred, even in 5th edition, It'll only kill one obliterator. Which any gamer will keep in cover in 5th edition thanks to the improved cover saves. 3+ cover in ruins, thank you...

- Oblits can deep strike and shoot in the same turn, so you can attempt to ensure they get their points back that same turn. eg. within 6" of a Land Raider, 3 twin-linked meltaguns, goodbye 250+ points of tank (the unit costs 225!!) After all they'll most likely hit with all 3, so 3 lots of 8+2D6 armour penetration, well thats 8+7 on average, so thats 3 penetrating hits, they then get +1 on the vehicle damage chart for AP1 meaning they'll destroy on a 4+, well that's goodbye tank...

- A marine with a blast master costs 65 pts and has to be accompanied by at least 4 20pt friends (80 pts) so your blastmaster costs 145pts, 2 oblits cost 150 and get 2 mega-blast weapons for that.

- Lash is broken... even chaos power gamers will admit that... they'll still exploit of course... and if you intend to rely on a broken psychic power to win a game you'll find having a fun game (or even a willing opponent) a little difficult.

 

Anyone want to try and shift reality and convince me Obliterators are worth taking?

 

yes...

 

-Plasma cannons are not bad weapons, but Obliterators are hardly worth paying 75 points for just to get them.

-A unit of 3 gets to fire 3 heavy weapons at Difficult Terrain speed, which is halved moving through difficult terrain, and if you want 3 heavy weapons a turn, you have to pay 225 points. I could buy my Noise Marine squad for that!

-Obliterators can deep strike, but that's wasted turns with them off table, and if they scatter out of the very small area they have to get 2D6 on their meltaguns, then your entire example is out the window. Let me give you some of my math: after all they'll most likely scatter, and that's 7 on average, easily enough to put them out of range, and possible onto another enemy unit, killing them instantly. Also, your math is flawed on the example that you did use, just letting you know. You'll hit with 2 on average, and you can work it from there (by the way, what I just said is also flawed math, because we're using fractions, not compounding percentages, but that's a whole nother story).

-Lash is broken, but so is mini/max, or eldar mech, or Nidzilla, but people still use them.

 

EDIT:

-Yes, Predators are more survivable, because last time I checked, a predator can't die from a lasgun or bolter fire.

[Dam13n]

In the Deep Strike section of my previous point , I just suggested a use for them if they deep strike. Some missions require some of your units to start in reserve anyway, the fact that you can bring in the oblits wherever you want is useful, yes? Plus you seem to forget that Icons count as teleport homers... My oblits need not scatter if I don't want them to.

 

The math:

3 shots, hitting on a 3+ = 2 hits, 1 re-roll for twin linked = 2/3 hit rounds off to 3 hits total.

3 hits needing 6 to glance, 7+ to penetrate on 2D6 will actually result, on average, in ~2 penetrating hits (I DID make an error there earlier)

4+ to destroy with 2 attempts = 3/4 chance of destroying the tank...

 

Still not bad, I did fudge a little at first I admit :)

 

Lasguns and Bolters killing Oblits, Hmmm OK, only really likely if you let them get within 12", which frankly, you shouldn't do, unless absolutely necessary.

 

You could buy a noise marine squad for the same cost as 3 Oblits, but last time I checked, this thread was about Heavy Support, not Troops...

 

Laterz...

[The Branded]

The math:

3 shots, hitting on a 3+ = 2 hits, 1 re-roll for twin linked = 2/3 hit rounds off to 3 hits total.

3 hits needing 6 to glance, 7+ to penetrate on 2D6 will actually result, on average, in ~2 penetrating hits (I DID make an error there earlier)

4+ to destroy with 2 attempts = 8/9 chance of destroying the tank...

 

I'll run off the exact numbers some other time, but you should expect to hit with 3 %47.45 of the time, hit with 2 %26.66 of the time, hit with 1 %%11.33 of the time, and....

 

Crap, screwed up one of those numbers somewhere. The first one is right though.

 

As for destroying it, you have a 3/4 chance, not 8/9, btw.

[Seahawk]

It's actually a 5+ for destroying vehicles though, unless you keep hacking off weapons and tank treads.

[Cale]

The math:

3 shots, hitting on a 3+ = 2 hits, 1 re-roll for twin linked = 2/3 hit rounds off to 3 hits total.

3 hits needing 6 to glance, 7+ to penetrate on 2D6 will actually result, on average, in ~2 penetrating hits (I DID make an error there earlier)

4+ to destroy with 2 attempts = 3/4 chance of destroying the tank...

 

You're still pretty far off, actually. What you're finding here is a very inaccurate "average" number of destroyed results, not the probability of destroying the tank. The probability of getting at least one "vehicle destroyed" or "vehicle explodes" result with a twin-linked melta is about 62.66%. That's significantly less than 3/4.

 

For the record, the average number of destroyed/exploded results is 0.84, which is actually more than 3/4.

 

And Seahawk, he was using (I presume) a melta, which is ap 1. In fifth, AP 1 adds one to the result table, allowing a tank to be destroyed on a glancing six and a penetrating one-through-four.

[Dam13n]

It's actually a 5+ for destroying vehicles though, unless you keep hacking off weapons and tank treads.

 

Melta weapons recieve +1 for being AP 1 actually, so penetrate on a 4+.

[Seahawk]

Oh I know all the AP1 bit...but I didn't take that into account. My bads! Gonna be some damn good deep striking to land within 6" of a vehicle though...

[Plague Pie]

Deep striking IS a great way to position Oblits, but something to consider that takes away from the maneuverability argument is that when deep-striking there is a a MINIMUM of one turn where the the Oblits are not shooting. A pred could probably have moved to where ever you needed it in the same time without losing a shot. Also, since Deepstriking is not guaranteed on the turn you need it, that random factor takes away some of the oblits reliability. Not saying that they're worse then a pred, I'm in Cale's camp of thinking they each have their place, just saying that deep-striking isn't a super-reliable maneuverability advantage.

[The WarpGhost]

Predators for me. OK, so im naturally biased as a Steel Brethren player, but a last turn rush by a predator can move 12" in a single turn where an obliterator takes on average 4 turns to move 14" (using infantry 1k Sons I know how much of a problem S&P can be). Sure you lose a turns shooting but youre shooting 3 guns at other turns so in pure firepower terms some people here are talking you still win out. Now, the Oblits still enjoy move-and-fire every turn and can contest objectives as well, so theyre just all-round more flexible. But when I look at heavy support in the current codex im looking for firepower not finesse and for as low a cost as possible and also a serious proposition for distracting some anti-tank firepower from my squishy rhinos, and the Pred provides that where the Obliterator doesnt cut it.

 

260 points nets me 4 lascannons and 2 autocannons; obliterators cost me 300 points to get 4 lascannons (so im no better off against heavy tanks or big gribblies, in fact i lose the 4 chances to cause an errant wound or glance) or plasmacannons (which will probably beat the preds anti-infantry but not necassarily by a whole lot, and besides ive got the rest of the army for grunt-killing). The Predator fits my mission profile (and is more themic to armoured shock troops like Steel Brethren which is a bonus); obliterators do not.

 

If I look for a 3rd HS, I look at my mission profile for it. In this case, because itll almost invariably be a higher points game, i'll either be extending my existing one (therefore another Pred, maybe slightly altered weapons) or creating a new one based on maximising close infantry support for minimum cost, one where a Defiler's brutal flexibility will be more suited than an Obliterator and can still distract that anti-tank hostile fire.

[Dam13n]

but a last turn rush by a predator can move 12" in a single turn

 

Yet in 5th edition neither unit nor tank counts as scoring, so what's the point?

[Plague Pie]

but a last turn rush by a predator can move 12" in a single turn

 

Yet in 5th edition neither unit nor tank counts as scoring, so what's the point?

 

They still contest objectives, denying your opponent points.

[The WarpGhost]

Yet in 5th edition neither unit nor tank counts as scoring, so what's the point?

They still contest objectives, denying your opponent points.

Precisely; their goal becomes denial, rather than control. That single Predator can deny a significantly larger force their objective, something it couldnt do when it was also scoring. It can also act as a LoS blocker to deny or divert enemy fire or assaults upon scoring units