Heavy Support in 5th Ed

[Dread Pirate Huron]

I was thinking of trying havocs this edition 2000 points:

 

14 chaos havocs, 4 heavy bolters, icon of chaos glory resplendent, powerfist champion

tri-las predator

tri-las predator

 

While ridiculously expensive it will take a while to get kill points of out the unit if you can keep them in cover. Against dual lash you will have to work at it but with enough rhinos it can be done. In addition once a horde hits 24 inches of it the punishment really begins with 10 bolter shots and 12 heavy bolter shots.

 

Any one think it is too crazy an idea to give a go?

 

Yarr!

[Plague Pie]

I was thinking of trying havocs this edition 2000 points:

 

14 chaos havocs, 4 heavy bolters, icon of chaos glory resplendent, powerfist champion

tri-las predator

tri-las predator

 

While ridiculously expensive it will take a while to get kill points of out the unit if you can keep them in cover. Against dual lash you will have to work at it but with enough rhinos it can be done. In addition once a horde hits 24 inches of it the punishment really begins with 10 bolter shots and 12 heavy bolter shots.

 

Any one think it is too crazy an idea to give a go?

 

Yarr!

 

I really don't think you need that many Havocs in one squad. That's a lot of guys just standing there looking all meat shieldy. Generally you want one standard marine to every heavy weapons trooper. The Powerfist seems a little out of place as well since the squad should be staying away from the fighting. If the enemy reaches your havocs, you're probably already in deep trouble and the PF isn't going to save the game. Move the PF to another squad or take the extra six models from the havoc squad (after dropping the size down to 8) and throw the PF in a small 6 man squad. It isn't ideal, but I think it's better to have that PF on the move, seperate from the havocs.

[Dread Pirate Huron]

Ah, but with the new missions. you can expect the enemy to be heading into your deployment zone. Also they will be using outflank and there is no way orks are not going to reach your lines in 5th with run and waagh. Daemons too are going to get close and being able to either single or (double!) tap with the other 10 marines as they approach is going to be quite nice. Add in worries about flyrants and the shere amount of wounds a good chaos dakka pred can cause and you will find yourself losing heavy bolter marines fairly quickly as they only need to do 5 wounds to force a save on the big guns.

 

I know the standard guidelines and if i was going to be taking a small "cheap" unit of havocs with heavy bolters...I wouldn't because the dakka predator is both cheaper and better in my opinion. The whole point of the squad is that aside from the lash-obliterator combo, and other stoppable tactics they will be very survivable. In addition as a defensive unit that will help guard an objective near your deployment they will be very punishing towards most infantry units and can handle many assaults meant to shift them away. The size of the unit means they can't send anything that can't take a hit back as it is hard to kill 14 marines before initiative step 4.

 

As an approach it is definitely a little out there but I think it is worth a try before judging it.

 

Yarr!

[fearlessgod]

Well, I read every post. I'm still sticking with my current setup:

 

Vindicator

2 Obliterators

tri-las Predator

 

Sort of gives me a little of everything. Anti-infantry, anti-armour and everything in between. ;)

 

~fearlessgod~

[River Black]

So i take it that the defiler is the least favorite choice for 5th ed then.

[Cale]

The vindicator really seems to out-class the defiler, with a bigger gun and higher front armour. The Defiler is a jack of all trades, but a master of none, and it's not even particularly cheap. It just doesn't really have anything with which to edge out the other choices. Still, I doubt it's the least favourite. That honour probably goes to the Land Raider.

[Dosadi]

The vindicator really seems to out-class the defiler, with a bigger gun and higher front armour. The Defiler is a jack of all trades, but a master of none, and it's not even particularly cheap. It just doesn't really have anything with which to edge out the other choices. Still, I doubt it's the least favourite. That honour probably goes to the Land Raider.

 

Not to mention the high profile of the defiler will make it a fire magnet with 5th edition's true LOS rules. The vindicator is low enough that you can hide it as it moves forward. Also there is a HUGE difference between a demolisher cannon and a battle cannon (at least in the eyes of terminators).

 

I'm not sure why people hate the land raider so much? It's expensive, but I've found no better way of getting my berserkers into the enemy battle lines unscathed. It’s big, so can be used to block LOS, it’s got some good guns on it so once it’s finished it role as a transport, it can kill things, It is really mean when it rams and tank shocking is another good option (dirge caster!) I love my land raider!

 

 

Dosadi

[Night Stalker]

you guys obviously not played with 5ed rules

 

defiler is better than vindicator

 

why?

 

there are 2 primary ways to kill vehicles reliable in 5ed

-melta on the face

-close combat

 

and guess how fare defiler in combat - i'll say it - it rules there. it taken me few turns [5?]to kill dread[defiler equivalent] in cc. vindicator was destroyed outright. beware the defiler.

[fearlessgod]

Yes, the Defiler is good in cc, but it has to get there first. Both the Vindicator and Defiler will be priority targets to the enemy, but the Vindicator's front armour is better, which seems to give it a little better chance of staying around to do it's job. I have run both, and in my experience, my Vindicator lasts longer. Just my experience...

 

~fearlessgod~

[Night Stalker]

in 4th you're right

 

in 5th you're wrong

 

anti-tank raptors [6] [120 pts]

 

hit on 4+ [3 hits aprox] glance on 4 and penetrate on 5+. [vindi]

 

vs

 

hit on 6+ glance on 6+

 

vehicles are not easy to kill in 5th so beware close combat with them.

[fearlessgod]

With all due respect Night Stalker, here's where we disagree. I don't take Heavy Support choices based on what they can do when assaulted. I take them for whar they can do to my opponent's army from range. All in all, I perfer my Vindicator to my Defiler.

 

~fearlessgod~

[Night Stalker]

With all due respect Night Stalker, here's where we disagree. I don't take Heavy Support choices based on what they can do when assaulted. I take them for whar they can do to my opponent's army from range. All in all, I perfer my Vindicator to my Defiler.

 

~fearlessgod~

 

probably due to metagame, i know that my heavy support will end up in combat pretty fast.

 

and it better to not die fast here.

 

another option would be playstyle.

 

so we probably have to disagree about this one. till we change our perception on the mattern.

[Drudge Dreadnought]

It seems vindicator and defiler both have their pros and their cons. My question is if you were to use two would you do one of each or two of one?

I'm running a mech list thats got a predator, dreadnought and 2-3 rhinos. I'm trying to decide on what combinatoin of vindicators and defilers for my last two slots. No interest in land raiders.

[fearlessgod]

probably due to metagame, i know that my heavy support will end up in combat pretty fast.

 

and it better to not die fast here.

 

another option would be playstyle.

 

so we probably have to disagree about this one. till we change our perception on the mattern.

 

Agreed. I do have a solution though. I'll replace my Vindicator with a Defiler for a few games and you replace your Defiler with a Vindicator for a few games. Maybe we both will get a different perspective and learn a few new things. Happy gaming my friend... ;)

 

~fearlessgod~

[Night Stalker]

i'll try and look how it fare ;)

[Prot]

This is a tough question. I've literally gone back and forth on my own answer, and thus haven't responded until now.

 

First I think there is a larger question. Does your army favour the idea of more vehicles (if any) or more infantry?

 

In an army with rhinos and possibly other vehicles (dread's? ugh), then it's often a wise idea to force your opponent to make tough anti-tank decisions by adding more vehicles. Conversely, in a nearly foot slogging army, I find the odd heavy tank gets far too much attention.

 

Second question. When is a heavy not a heavy? Is the 'heavy' slot your best option for anti-vehicle? So what is the role of your heavies? Perhaps you favour pie (vindi/dread-plasma/defiler) for anti infantry and you've found alternatives for anti tank (Chosen + infiltrate + melta/plas or raptors).

 

To answer question one, I am making my Alpha fast... or at least mobile. And that involves Rhino's (I'm convinced they are the bane of the dreaded greenskins). So my heavies are looking to be vehicles to spread my opponent's anti-tank weaponry lovin'.

 

To answer question two isn't so easy because I have a very split role of my army. Will my tanks do all anti armour? My Daemon Prince and Chosen may assume that role. Most likely I'll be splitting duties in 5th amongst my Heavies.

 

For now the short answer for 5th is:

Predator for the jack of all trades it can be. (Really I believe any config can and does work... depends on the meta game in your area)

Landraider. Don't underestimate the nerf to Gauss (which really sacked my former attempts with landraiders) and non-ap weaponry like the dreaded Vibro Cannons. Landraiders also have excellent ramming potential and for my list specifically, I think Landraiders really jive well with Possessed in particular. Still I know, they're a lucky shot away from death.

 

I did the Oblit thing to death since their inception with my iron warriors. Yes, I'm talking OLD school Oblits, with the crappy hair-do's and KISS boots. They are great, and will make my list again, but for now, too slow, and expensive for my list.

 

Honourable mention goes out to Vindicator. With one weapon, I really don't like the Chaos version. At least with the defiler you have a lot of weaponry, and when the big gun is lost, I just fleet and watch my opponent panic. They are a tad over priced though.

 

And least of all I'd go with Havoks. Nothing particularly wrong here except price and 5th ed mobility problems. They cost a lot to be effective and can't really move to be of use. I predict every army will have at least one side infiltrating squad to take care of something like Havoks. They can't hold objectives, and they are too slow for my 5th ed needs.

 

Just my two cents. I obviously need to playtest to prove any of this to myself though.

[DEFILED PROPHET]

I take a havocs squad with interchangable weapons, 3 obliterators and a vindicator/defiler. I personally dont like the idea of either LR or predator because they seem too imperial. vindicators are plain awesome, so even though its imperial, I usually take it. Anyway, the defiler/vindicator take care of infantry with their ordnance blasts, which I take depends on table size and how tough the army is. Guard, Eldar, Orks, 'nids and such = defiler. SM/CSM = vindicator. On to havocs and obliterators. I find havocs very anti-infantry and obliterators tend to be anti-tank. The reasons for this are: Havocs, not as mobile as obliterators, so they really cant get to the tanks soft-as-butter rear armour. They CAN, however, take 4 heavy bolters 12, s 5 ap 4 shots... ;) :D :) ;) lascannons... not too bad against vehicles, but I would take 3 obliterators with twinlinked meltaguns teleporting 2" behind a predator/leman russ anyday. Now then, with obliterators, it is true they can do quite a good role at anti-infantry, with twinlinked flamers and plasma cannons and powerfists. BUT... slow and steady means that most infantry squads can just run rings around them as they slowly blunder onwards. If that squad is a cheap-ass 20 man IG squad with 2 meltaguns... they are most likely going to slaughter your obliterators, as even using plasma cannons, you wouldnt kill them all, and for a squad around 100 points that takes out 3 75pt men... *hides in corner and crys*. anyway... so, as you can see, obliterators are best used against vehicles, teleporting behind vehicles and unleashing their melta-fire. If you are feeling particuly mean, you can bash the cr*p out of them with your powerfists(that is, of course, if you can charge after firing with a heavy weapon and slow and steady... I dont have my rules book on me at the moment...)

anyway, thats just my opinions... :P

 

Prophet out.

[Zealot Of Chaos]

I take Oblits and a Defiler, the Oblits cope long - mid range and the defiler sits back using its cannon then when my opponent makes that inevitable mistake then the defiler fleets and munches (if they are close enough that I don'rt have to fleet then I hvy flamer them)

[the jeske]

slow and steady means that most infantry squads can just run rings around

;) can you explain how this can happen ? unless its a city fight board with no windows , then flying around isnt much of an options [and what happened to the DPs and the csm/zerkers/pms infront of oblits?] as oblits can always move d6" and and face the opponent

Or do you mean that that oblits way of doing anti infantry is going hth :) ?

 

+ there is always lash .

[minigun762]

The safest and easiest choices are probably a mix of Vindicators and Obliterators, depending on the rest of your army.

 

I personally am starting to look alot more at the Autocannon/LasCannon Predator. 130 Points for 3 long range Heavy Weapons is how I see it. Cheaper than 2 Obliterators and with the same number of LasCannons. Yep you can only move 6" and fire 1 weapon but a vehicle like this shouldn't need to move much, it should be dominating fire lanes. Think of it as a MUCH cheaper Havock squad with a Built in Rhino. If you don't have a shot, you could always move up to 12", pop the free smoke and you should be ok. The Autocannons is only ever wasted if you're shooting at AV14, everything else it can hurt and frankly 35 points for the TL-LasCannon is just too much outside of Apocalypse.

[the jeske]

ok in a world of more resilient transports and 10 man squads . how do you dominate a fire line with 2 lascanons and autocanon?

[minigun762]

ok in a world of more resilient transports and 10 man squads . how do you dominate a fire line with 2 lascanons and autocanon?

 

Fair enough, maybe dominate is a bit too strong of a word ^_^

However I can't think of anything you can buy for 130 points that will be more of a threat, with the possible exception of a Vindicator or maybe 5 Raptors and 2 Meltaguns, both of which have a shorter range.

 

And in all fairness, those 3 heavy weapons will do a fairly good job of knocking out even the tougher transports.

 

My point was, I think there are options out there that should be considered outside the typical "use Obliterators"

 

Another wacky thought is to use a Predator without Sponsons. This is the most likely case of affording the TL-LasCannon I think. 105 points for a mobile TL-LasCannon and AV13 should help it survive decently. More expensive than a single Obliterator but more mobile, more accurate and questionably more survivable.

[the jeske]

More expensive than a single Obliterator but more mobile, more accurate and questionably more survivable.

ok. a single las that hits on +2 . if it gets stuned it does nothing . if the las gets blow up its a 100+ rhino . its still the same size , so hiding outside of city boards is hard . + as single las isnt that good at all . to make effective hvy support you would need to spam that [like all other in the dex ] . lets say you take 2 or 3 . well oblits for the same number of pts are way superior .

And in all fairness, those 3 heavy weapons will do a fairly good job of knocking out even the tougher transports.

ok but there is more then tanks in w40k [or rather there is more then rhino transport that a pred with a weapon set up like that is good against] . what does it do against meq or horde ? fry 1 or 2 sm per turn [or 3 gaunts ]. oblits can do much more .

[Zealot Of Chaos]

last time I fought an IG player I didn't "kill" any of his lemans, my oblits merely blew up all their weapons and immobilised them in a very short time, then when playing a necron soon after in the first turn my oblits brought down his monolith catastrophically killing 3 more necrons in the blast as well as causing huge amounts of casualties with the P-cannons, and against the followers of the carrion lord (space marines) nothing quite beats the p-cannons or even funnier, twin linked p=guns, until they make the other heavy supports more viable than they currently are or nerf oblits then they almost HAVE to be taken in an army (note before I get bashed for saying this truthalmost)