Alpha Legion.

[Brother Aristeo]

Zeller, your confusion is shared by a rather large number of people. I've been reading discussions on a number of other forums (Alpha Legion forums, Warseer forums, and Black Library forums in particular) and here at the B & C and I assure you that no other Horus Heresy title has been more hotly debated than Legion.

 

I've read the book twice and, to be honest, I was MORE confused the second time around! How is that you ask? I don't know exactly, but I think it's because I didn't get much more out of it than I did the first time I read it, while having the expectation that I would somehow "get it" the second time around.

 

From what I've gathered, a large number of people now think that the Alpha Legion is some sort of Loyalist Legion that has diguised themselves as Traitors for 10,000 years. For a while, I even thought that maybe they might not be the Chaos Marines we've all come to know (or think we know), but are on some sort of holy mission only known to themselves, and stuck somewhere in between Loyalist and Traitor.

 

But then what about all the background? Does one book throw it all away? Is Dan Abnett crazy? No, he's not crazy! He's a genius!

 

The other night I had a revelation. I was reading some forum and people were all arguing about Legion and what it meant and throwing conspiracy theories around and I started getting really tired. I kept nodding off while I was trying to read until I fell asleep sitting up on my couch with my laptop on my lap. Then I awoke startled and surprised, and I had figured it out!

 

Dan Abnett must have really been inspired by the Index Astartes article about the Alpha Legion, especially the part about disinformation and keeping everyone guessing about what the Alpha Legion's true intentions are. This entire book keeps you guessing, even long after you've finished it. It makes you question EVERYTHING you thought you knew about the Alpha Legion, even to the point of thinking that they're a bunch of Loyalists!!

 

And that's the entire point of the book, to keep you guessing! To spread disinformation until you don't know which way is up anymore. It's more true to the background than anybody ever gave it credit for. Dan Abnett's gotten into everybody's minds and is messing with them! Why not just write another Horus Heresy book and explain why Alpharius turned traitor? BECAUSE IT WOULD HAVE BEEN TOO EASY. :rolleyes:

 

With everbody claiming to be Alpharius, nobody's really sure who he is. Well, I'll tell you who Alpharius is...Dan Abnett is Alpharius! And that's all you get! :rolleyes:

[TyrantKaiser]

I really like the idea of a loyalist Chapter falling intentionally (going undercover) and being declared traitors as a consequence, but they fight against Chaos while being hunted by both sides. Epic.

[Zeller]

Most insightful, Brother Aristeo!

 

One thing is for sure though, we know the AL is 100% dedicated in mind, body, and soul to protecting the Emperor and his empire. However, the empire they swore to protect has become so bloated and twisted that it's hard to say whether or not they are even fighting for the Imperium we know. On the contrary, they knew fighting alongside the traitor legions would prolong the life of the very same Imperium they fought to preserve. Their only problem was the fact that the Imperium did regress into a lesser image of it's former self. Perhaps another reason for siding with Horus was to wither down loyalist forces that, as the Autarch mentioned, had been tainted.The AL were and probably remain the purest legion. I hope this doesn't sound like I'm blowing promethium out my arse.

 

Dare I go so far as saying that perhaps the Custodes, the golden throne, and the AL are all somehow connected? The custodes watch over the Emperor domestically while the AL protect him abroad. If the Grey Knights really as pure as they claim to be then perhaps they fit into this weave some how too.

 

My brain is starting to squirm so I will leave it here lest I say something more confusing.

[Brother Aristeo]

See Zeller? Now you're convinced that the Alpha Legion is 100% dedicated to the Emperor. And that's exactly what they want you to think! The truth is that they're evil.

 

To answer your question from before, how did the AL siding with Horus eventually lead to Horus's downfall? Here's an explanation:

 

The Cabal was able to see what the future held. The Acuity showed them something that we know all too well: the nightmare that is the 41st millennium. In order to stop this future from coming to pass, they had to pinpoint the event that would set this future into motion. They determined that Horus's defeat at the hands of the Emperor would make this future a reality. They were then able to determine that if Horus won, he would end up destroying all of humanity and Chaos would burn itself out, leaving the rest of the alien species in the galaxy a peaceful future.

 

The Cabal told Alpharius Omegon that if the Alpha Legion SIDED with Horus to ensure his victory, then Chaos would not end up destroying the galaxy. They never said that they had to TURN to Chaos to achieve this, but simply SIDE with Horus to ensure he won and the galaxy could be saved. Do you see where I'm going with this?

 

Backtrack in the book for a moment to where Alpharius and his captains were feasting with Namatjira after Alpharius's "arrival". After Alpharius left, Namatjira asked Chayne what he thought about the Alpha Legion. Chayne said that "EVERY ONE OF THEM WAS LYING." This is one of the most important parts of the book. It tells you that everything they say is a lie...even when they tell the Cabal that they have "always been for the Emperor".

 

The beauty of this book is that it makes you want to dig so deep to figure it out. The problem with that is you end up missing the details that are right on the surface. The subtitle of the book is Secrets and Lies after all.

 

So to answer your question, Horus's downfall came because the Alpha Legion DID NOT choose to side with Horus. They turned to Chaos, and made sure that Horus LOST so that they could make the nightmare future come to pass. They WANTED Chaos to rule. In fact, I think they were on the path to damnation long before this book took place. I don't think they were EVER on the Emperor's side.

 

The Alpha Legion is EVIL, and is a Chaos worshipping Traitor Legion through and through. Dan Abnett has done an amazing job with this book. He has truly screwed with everybody's mind on this one!

[DuskRaider]

You play Ultramarines, don't you? :)

 

No, the Alpha Legion, at least some parts of it, are still loyal to the Emperor. Maybe not the Imperium or its ideals (they even say they find the idea of a Utopian society a failure), but they believe the Emperor is humanity's salvation, and they are doing what they need to ensure the survival of humanity.

 

Have some fell to Chaos? I wouldn't doubt it. I see them working as insurgents (they pretty much are), many cells of their operation, and in time they lost contact with one another.

 

I'm actually finishing up Legion right now, and I'll tell you... it's making the prospect of playing an Alpha Legion army more and more appealing. I, myself, intend to use the new SM codex if I do in fact start a force.

[Lay]

My bet is on chaos. Judging by their actions after the Heresy the idea that they're still loyal looks rather forced to me.

[Daygawn]

I think its very possible that the Alpha Legion as a whole have turned from the Emperor but theres still a possibility that there is/was some hardliners who stayed loyal to the Emperor. Whether such a force still exists or was cut down by their fellow Alpha Legion brethren is up in the air. I. like a previous poster had said, too am starting a loyalist Alpha Legion army when the new SM codex comes out, im just crazy for Alpha Legion.

 

OT-was rereading vraks last night and it saids that Arkon is a FORMER alpha legion captain. Meaning hes no longer part of the Alpha Legion?

[Brother Aristeo]

DuskRaider, I'm highly offended by that remark! :)

 

ULTRAMARINES SUCK!

 

(found spray painted on an Imperial building wall by suspected Alpha Cultists)

[Lay]

was rereading vraks last night and it saids that Arkon is a FORMER alpha legion captain. Meaning hes no longer part of the Alpha Legion?

A former captain and now a Chaos Lord.

However, the character summary states that he's still an Alpha Legion captain.

[Eetion]

Interesting analysis, The Alpha Legion are true Chaos, and manipulated events to ensure Chaos won... In fact thats a great motivation, you just sold me the idea... Not entirely convinced its that clear cut but then i dont expect it to be.

[Senseilord Ashahara]

It's lovely that this debate has reignited here.

I also like the idea that Dan Abbett is Alpharius.

 

The Alpha Legion is Loyal in the same way that the Night Lords are a puritan legion, kicking against the decadence of Chaos.

[Zeller]

Could it be possible that Alpharius somehow tampered with the two unknown primarchs and ruined their futures?

 

How could the Eldar not detect the flaws in their gene-seed? Could it be that the Eldar never actually got a chance to face the AL in combat?

 

If the AL were chaos before chaos contaminated the first legions then could it be that they are somehow responsible for the taint that cropped up within the Word Bearers?

 

Could AL marines have infiltrated other legions and filled high positions close to the primarchs to influence them?

 

Is the AL's very nature supposed to be suggestive of their link to Chaos?

 

Wouldn't Horus eventually turn to hunt down the AL after he conquered known space considering they only had to side with him and not actually worship chaos? Then again, how would Horus find out let alone find the AL. Odds are they would be right under his nose and he wouldn't have the slightest clue.

[DuskRaider]

The Alpha Legion were pretty much equivalent of the CIA, only they didn't screw up so much. It's funny, because the legion was actually quite small, and subsisted of many different aspects of the Imperium, from regular Imperial Army grunts to psykers, and I'm quite sure at this stage in the game they have their hands in the High Lords Council. They're everywhere and no where at the same time.

 

I think when they were accused of lying during the meeting, it was more their reason for being on the planet, their explanation of Chaos (I'm sure they had a LOT more understanding of it then they let on), but I don't think they were ever agents of the Ruinous Powers. But the really impressive thing is, we'll never know. I'm sure even members of the Alpha Legion don't even know, as it's been so lost in espionage and lies upon lies.

 

Aristeo, I apologize, I should never accuse someone of such a horrible thing! <_<

[Tremolo]

And that's the entire point of the book, to keep you guessing! To spread disinformation until you don't know which way is up anymore. It's more true to the background than anybody ever gave it credit for. Dan Abnett's gotten into everybody's minds and is messing with them! Why not just write another Horus Heresy book and explain why Alpharius turned traitor? BECAUSE IT WOULD HAVE BEEN TOO EASY. ;)

 

This tbh, secrets and lies, it says it on the tin :D Having never really looked at the AL much i used to collect chaos undivided, i am now of the opinion they are probably MORE deserving of being blessed by the wicked chaos gods. They are definately more interesting to me after reading Legion

[xa0s]

It's all lies, hands down.

 

I would say they're more of loyalist chapter. Tho I have a hard time to figure out which codex to use with AL -- SM or CSM. Current edition of CSM does not support cultists, so Im trying to figure out which one would be "legal." Dont want any argument had I use 'em during RTT.

[Senseilord Ashahara]

". Current edition of CSM does not support cultists, "

 

It's an oldie but it's a goodie - summoned daemons.

Use summoned Daemons as cultists. Hidden nutters waiting in the wings to leap out a signal and attack with the strength and zeal of the damned.

 

I use a choir of renagde Adeptus Telapathica (close range teleporting) made from the blindfolded Flagellent models.

[Gman]

It's all lies, hands down.

 

I would say they're more of loyalist chapter. Tho I have a hard time to figure out which codex to use with AL -- SM or CSM. Current edition of CSM does not support cultists, so Im trying to figure out which one would be "legal." Dont want any argument had I use 'em during RTT.

 

Well if you want to have "cultists" in your army, there are a couple of ways to do it. In the CSM codex you can use lesser demons for this roll. I converted a bunch of Empire militiamen so they look like some plan local humans with CCW, to be my cultists for the old codex. I have been using them as cultists "count as" lesser demons now in the new codex. Convert something up to be what ever kind of representation of a cultist, loyalist renagade, revolutionary what ever.

 

If you want to use the SM codex, well then you can maybe use scouts for some locals. In particular with the rumors of their WS and BS getting lowered in the next SM codex, they would fit the roll well of some hired on cultist mercenaries. Use the scout models, like they are wearing cheap basic civilian armor, all patch-worked. Or some renagade IG models or something, counts as scouts.

 

Are the HH books stand alone? Can I just go pick up Legion and read it with out reading all the previous books?

[DuskRaider]

Yes, you can. I actually skipped Fulgrim (I lost the book in my room), and haven't read Descent of Angels yet, but I HAD to start Legion. You can read this book stand alone from the others and have no problem or ruin the plot of the first 4 or 5.

[Brother Aristeo]

I haven't read Fulgrim or Descent of Angels either, and I didn't have any problems...aside from the taffy pull my brain went through trying to figure it all out!

 

Hey, no hard feelings here, DuskRaider. Maybe you thought my avatar was an Ultramarine, but it's really an Alpha in disguise. You should see what I posted in a thread in Amicus about pronouncing Roboute Guilliman. :D

 

On another note, people keep talking about using demons for cultists. What about allied Traitor Guard? I've never played Guard or even looked at the Codex, but would it work? Can you give them infiltrate?

[Senseilord Ashahara]

"What about allied Traitor Guard? I've never played Guard or even looked at the Codex, but would it work? Can you give them infiltrate? "

 

I still play Lost And Damned (take that, The Man!) which incorperates Alpha Legion elements.

Traitor Guard infliltrate unless accompanied by an Astartes champion.

Also you can use 1 Elites chioice from the CSM codex, so if you use Chosen, you can have an all inflitrating army.

[Yayap40k]

I figure just to build my army with normal chaos marines, being as they are chaos. i actually use a mark of tzeentch with them, because they are scheming and manipulating and other tzeentchy stuff. it also gives them the save so they can make up for their stealth rules being removed. and giving them stuff like daemon weapons is just manipulating chaos and using it as a tool, same with wings. that last bit was totally not justifying the gifts i've given my chaos lord. so there. :)

[IhateSpaceMarines]

Wow Aristeo and Zeller, thats quite some insight I hadn't thought of :|.

 

My feeling on the matter is that well the AL are trying to save humanity, and at the same time weaving in everybody they know , chaos the cabal the imperium etc. into its huge web only so that they ultimately slam down their plan which they've been plotting for 10,000 years. My only question is that ... If the AL do indeed have the association with Chaos, then howcome Tzeentch hasn't alreayd unlocked their plans ? or has it ?

[Gman]

Wow, I picked up the book and started it. Already grabbed me in the first chapter and has me sucked in. I have not had a book do that to me in a long while, and infact have finished very few books for a while because they don't hold my attention. Anyway, I'm excited to get through this book and see what all unravals for me. :)

 

Thinking about the concept of playing a SM army played as AL, I had the idea of this....Use the Blood Angel codex to make an army, played as Night Lords? That way you can get all the extra flying assault marines that the Night Lords are so famous for. Heck, maybe go so far as to paint/theme them as the Night Lords pre heresy, so that using the SM rules fits. Just model/paint them like Night Lords.

[Senseilord Ashahara]

"My only question is that ... If the AL do indeed have the association with Chaos, then howcome Tzeentch hasn't alreayd unlocked their plans ? or has it ? "

 

It wouldnt matter either way. Tzeentch revelles in the plot for the plot's own sake.

[Gman]

Who is to say AL doesn't have some sorcerrors, or even librarians, in there back pocket, throwing up "fals signals" so to speak. If you really think about an organization that is truely out for it's own goals, and what ever means, there is nothing that is not possible. That's why they are so cool. :D