The Phantoms V2.5

[Alkana]

Cool. Is that blue or green? I can't tell.

[Hubernator]

You mean the trim? It's more blue, almost ice blue but with a hint of green.

[Hubernator]

Hey all. Spiced up my IA a little more. I've added pics of planets and arranged a table for the Captains of the Chapter.

[Alkana]

Looks great. I might steal the command table for the Black Phantoms if you don't mind.

[Hubernator]

Cheers :P And you may, I have no objection to that ;) Just make sure you don't use the same names ;)

[Hubernator]

Hey all. Did some more updating. Added another section at the bottom; "Notable Characters". Enjoy :lol:

[Octavulg]

General impressions.

 

Opening quote very lackluster. Opening quotes usually work better when they encapsulate the chapter or reinforce one of the primary chapter themes.

 

Letalis is mentioned 32 times throughout the IA (which is about 5000 words). Comparatively, I mention Taramant 23 times in an IA of about 4500 words. And Taramant's still alive and functioning. All in all, the effect is to make me heartily sick of Letalis. It reads like the Letalis Certamen Show, with special guest stars The Phantoms. At least use his name a little less. Even better, spend less time focusing on individuals and more on the chapter. An IA is about the chapter, not the individual marines.

 

Also, Letalis seems to be some titanic superman who bestrides the world and picks his teeth with the bones of chaos marines. You might want to give him some depth. And make him a little less perfect.

 

You often use two sentences where one would do. As Ben Croshaw often says: The best writing is short. and. punchy. Pare it down.

 

Details of the fleet are unnecessary, and don't make much sense in any case. Battlebarge as a rescue ship?

 

You spend far, far too much time coming up with funny names for stuff. Also, Utapa is one letter away from a moderately famous Star Wars planet. Far too much detail on the system in general - and little of it is interesting. Also, chinga is a form of the Spanish verb for f***. Also, planets are almost always named as [system Name][Place from Sun]. Thus, we're on Sol III. Personally, I think you should keep Jikovia and ditch the other planets, and Jikovia needs work itself - there's nothing which makes the planet particularly interesting, but you devote a fair bit of space to it anyway.

 

Considering your chapter used to be entirely based around the combat doctrine, I think you need to put more effort into it. Explain some of the Phantoms' tactical philosophies, and Letalis' views on them.

 

The entire Organisation section is completely unnecessary. Detail taken too far is dull, and here you have taken it too far.

 

Your chapter seems incredibly open to influence with regard to their beliefs on the Emperor. The beliefs section is also very poorly written, and needs serious revision.

 

The bit about mutated geneseed is entirely pointless.

 

The battle-cry section exemplifies what is wrong with the IA. It devotes far too much effort to explaining things that aren't really important, takes too long about it, mentions Letalis and Victor Kraw too much, and needs some general improvement in the writing. Oh, and it has nothing to do with the theme of the chapter.

 

A notable characters section is almost always a bad idea. It is especially a bad idea in this case since so many other aspects of the chapter still need work.

 

* * *

 

This needs lots of work. The writing needs improvement, as does the grammar. You seem to have completely lost sight of the original theme - a chapter dedicated to developing the tactics of speed and stealth (and killing the Tau :P). Far too much of the IA is devoted to individuals, rather than the chapter as a whole. Small details are expanded far further than necessary, while the very core of the chapter is forgotten.

 

Work out what you want the IA to be about. Write about THAT. Then throw on the other stuff. At the moment, you have far too much chaff and not very much wheat.

 

Work out what makes the Phantoms the Phantoms. That's what's important. At the moment, you're bogged down in unimportant details, and it really holds the IA back.

 

EDIT:

 

I guess the short version is that you're trying to make the IA more interesting through the addition of stuff, when you should be making it more interesting through the improvement and development of stuff.

 

As I have said several times, you need to find the core bits of your chapter and develop them well before you muck about with new stuff.

[Hubernator]

After reading your "review" I get the distinct feeling you just don't like them. I'm trying to improve but it seems I can't satisfy. And there's no way I'm starting over now.

 

Basically you don't like each section. The starting quote is poor, yes. And some parts are missing. But most I feel adds quality. Sorry if you can't see that.

 

This is me moaning. Now I'll be formal. I know what you mean. But I'm not entirely buying it. Letalis is important and I like him. No him is like ripping out a vital organ. And I can't add to the Chapter as you put it because I don't know what to add. And I'm no good at making people less perfect. The fleet is kinda necessary. Yes the planet's are kinda overkilled but hey - I like them. Utapa's name could change. I'm no good at all on Combat Doctrine. Organisation could be reduced. Beliefs I spent ages on so that's gonna hurt dropping that. the mutated gene-seed could go however it would make the section look pointless to an extent. You kinda lost me on you views battlecries. If they respect Letalis enough they would honour him. Notable characters was an extra, it could go.

 

Now for the last parts. Your perception and mine don't work. Sorry, I like adding stuff to the IA. If you want I'll forget all about your comments or drop the whole IA completely.

 

 

EDIT: sorry if I sound harsh. I just like this. First actual thing I've spent proper time on.

[Octavulg]

After reading your "review" I get the distinct feeling you just don't like them. I'm trying to improve but it seems I can't satisfy. And there's no way I'm starting over now.

 

I can understand an unwillingness to start over. However, I invite you to compare the first draft of the Ice Lords and the second. ;) The components of the Ice Lords are still the same (though there are some new, and some gone). But the whole thing has changed a LOT. I think it's gotten a lot better. And that meant I had to get rid of stuff.

 

Starting over doesn't require that you throw everything out, merely that you redesign and build something new with the pieces.

 

Basically you don't like each section. The starting quote is poor, yes. And some parts are missing. But most I feel adds quality. Sorry if you can't see that.

 

If I can't see it, it would seem likely you need to do more to bring it forth.

 

This is me moaning. Now I'll be formal. I know what you mean. But I'm not entirely buying it. Letalis is important and I like him. No him is like ripping out a vital organ.

 

I'm not saying no him, I'm saying less him.

 

Right now, the IA is more about him than it is about the chapter. You need to integrate the two better, and you need to up the amount of chapter.

 

If you want the IA to be about him more than the chapter, then you've missed the point of an IA.

 

And I can't add to the Chapter as you put it because I don't know what to add.

 

That's a tough one.

 

Well, they used to be about speed and perfection of those tactics. That seems to have disappeared - perhaps you want to bring that back more? Add more exploration of tactics, more testing, more attempts to do new and interesting things with their tactics?

 

Other things you could do...give Letalis a bit more depth, increase the fanaticism of their devotion to him, and then add more to their vendetta against the Tau. Really make them Letalis' chapter - and thus add more to the chapter by making Letalis more integral to them. Then explain how they've dealt with his loss. Of course, you'd need a reason for such a fanatical degree of loyalty - I'd go with him personally training a lot of them and a few hard campaigns with the White Scars and with the Phantoms which were great victories with lots of casualties - the survivors see Letalis as the reason for their survival and victory. That'd explain a bit of their fanatacism.

 

You could also play up the respect for all opponents angle. If not, I'd remove it - it's neat, but needs either more depth or not to exist. Honestly, it doesn't really fit well with the rest of the chapter.

 

You should do one of these, but more than one is a bad idea.

 

Oh, and if they're 25th Founding, that means that it's been about 500 years since they were founded...meaning they ought to be on their third chapter master or later by now. I'd stick with talking about Letalis and ignore eveyone else - having more people makes Letalis less important.

 

And I'm no good at making people less perfect.

 

It's not really that hard. At minimum, you could make him arrogant and have that arrogance lead him to defeat. ;) You could have the Tau lure him into ambush. You could have him slowly become more and more overconfident as his men begin to nearly worship him and he achieves more and more victories. Then the Tau use that overconfidence and kill him.

 

The fleet is kinda necessary.

 

Why?

 

If it's for fiction purposes, explain it in the fiction. It adds nothing to the IA.

 

Yes the planet's are kinda overkilled but hey - I like them.

 

To be frank, it's not entirely about what you like. If you submit it to others, it becomes about what they like.

 

If you don't want to change, that's fine. But you then must be content whee you are.

 

As-is, you've got four planets, none of which are particularly interesting. Plus, Space Marines are allowed one homeworld. Yours appear to have three. That's a few too many.

 

Utapa's name could change.

 

Personally, I think you'd be best off going to the whole SystemName I, II, III format. Too many funny names slows things down.

 

At any rate, you definitely want to change that one. I also think you might want to come up with something more original than "Omega" as well.

 

I'm no good at all on Combat Doctrine.

 

Tricky. If you want to base a chapter around it, you really need to figure out something to say about it.

 

Organisation could be reduced.

 

Honestly, I think it's better left out of most IAs. Either it's standard, or it gets really weird. And neither one is interesting to read.

 

Beliefs I spent ages on so that's gonna hurt dropping that.

 

You don't need to drop it - you need to rewrite it. Right now, it seems like it...grew up over time. There's redundancy and some inconsistency and the whole feel is disjointed.

 

You need to work out what you want to say, and then say it clearly and concisely.

 

the mutated gene-seed could go however it would make the section look pointless to an extent.

 

The geneseed section is always pointless. Sad, but true. Except with Cursed Founding chapters.

 

You kinda lost me on you views battlecries. If they respect Letalis enough they would honour him. Notable characters was an extra, it could go.

 

Yes, they would. But right now, he's moved beyond honored into nigh-worshipped. He's EVERYWHERE. And it's a little...grating.

 

He is revered to a degree far, far beyond that of any other Space Marine Chapter Master I can think of. So you need to either explain and justify this better, or tone it down.

 

At the very least, you need to start using pronouns instead of his name.

 

Now for the last parts. Your perception and mine don't work. Sorry, I like adding stuff to the IA. If you want I'll forget all about your comments or drop the whole IA completely.

 

I will be quite frank. Every time people offer advice, you nod, smile, ignore them or make a few small changes, and then add a whole bunch of new stuff. And that is no way to write a good IA.

 

I know adding stuff is fun, but you really need to work on what you've got and get it right before you expand it. And until you can do that, it's not going to improve.

[Hubernator]

I can understand an unwillingness to start over. However, I invite you to compare the first draft of the Ice Lords and the second. :P The components of the Ice Lords are still the same (though there are some new, and some gone). But the whole thing has changed a LOT. I think it's gotten a lot better. And that meant I had to get rid of stuff.

I seem to remember this is my IA on round 2 :P Anyway I see what you mean.

 

Starting over doesn't require that you throw everything out, merely that you redesign and build something new with the pieces.

I end up throwing out all the stuff though ;) This is gonna be one mighty sieving I've got to do.

 

If I can't see it, it would seem likely you need to do more to bring it forth.

Sounds like a lot more.

 

I'm not saying no him, I'm saying less him.

 

Right now, the IA is more about him than it is about the chapter. You need to integrate the two better, and you need to up the amount of chapter.

 

If you want the IA to be about him more than the chapter, then you've missed the point of an IA.

I've gotten carried away there :wub: Waaaaay too carried away. I just liked the guy so much. He was like part of the Phantoms... I think I've overdone him. So less of him and more of the Phantoms...

 

That's a tough one.

 

Well, they used to be about speed and perfection of those tactics. That seems to have disappeared - perhaps you want to bring that back more? Add more exploration of tactics, more testing, more attempts to do new and interesting things with their tactics?

 

Other things you could do...give Letalis a bit more depth, increase the fanaticism of their devotion to him, and then add more to their vendetta against the Tau. Really make them Letalis' chapter - and thus add more to the chapter by making Letalis more integral to them. Then explain how they've dealt with his loss. Of course, you'd need a reason for such a fanatical degree of loyalty - I'd go with him personally training a lot of them and a few hard campaigns with the White Scars and with the Phantoms which were great victories with lots of casualties - the survivors see Letalis as the reason for their survival and victory. That'd explain a bit of their fanatacism.

 

You could also play up the respect for all opponents angle. If not, I'd remove it - it's neat, but needs either more depth or not to exist. Honestly, it doesn't really fit well with the rest of the chapter.

 

You should do one of these, but more than one is a bad idea.

 

Oh, and if they're 25th Founding, that means that it's been about 500 years since they were founded...meaning they ought to be on their third chapter master or later by now. I'd stick with talking about Letalis and ignore eveyone else - having more people makes Letalis less important.

Well the speedy marines idea kinda got shot down by you actually. Because I wanted them fast and you said no. The idea got scrapped because I couldn't word it any other way at the time. I could try again but bringing it back might be difficult.

 

I could try out making Letalis arrogant although I've got the idea of him being a decent Chapter Master... that might be the flaw :wacko Too perfect.

 

The respect thing I could hold off for another Chapter. Easily.

 

It's not really that hard. At minimum, you could make him arrogant and have that arrogance lead him to defeat. :P You could have the Tau lure him into ambush. You could have him slowly become more and more overconfident as his men begin to nearly worship him and he achieves more and more victories. Then the Tau use that overconfidence and kill him.

Now really I'm not warming to this. This was why I wanted a good war to mark a change.

 

Why?

 

If it's for fiction purposes, explain it in the fiction. It adds nothing to the IA.

Check my stories and you might see why, mainly part III.

 

To be frank, it's not entirely about what you like. If you submit it to others, it becomes about what they like.

 

If you don't want to change, that's fine. But you then must be content whee you are.

 

As-is, you've got four planets, none of which are particularly interesting. Plus, Space Marines are allowed one homeworld. Yours appear to have three. That's a few too many.

OK so this needs heavy re-working. I'll come up with something.

 

Personally, I think you'd be best off going to the whole SystemName I, II, III format. Too many funny names slows things down.

 

At any rate, you definitely want to change that one. I also think you might want to come up with something more original than "Omega" as well.

Both were off the top of my head. Depends, I might not keep them now. We'll see.

 

Tricky. If you want to base a chapter around it, you really need to figure out something to say about it.

And really I don't have any idea on what to base it on.

 

Honestly, I think it's better left out of most IAs. Either it's standard, or it gets really weird. And neither one is interesting to read.

Well I think at least some degree of it should be there. I'll see what I can do.

 

You don't need to drop it - you need to rewrite it. Right now, it seems like it...grew up over time. There's redundancy and some inconsistency and the whole feel is disjointed.

 

You need to work out what you want to say, and then say it clearly and concisely.

Big challenge that. I basically wanted respectful marines who hate Tau and honour their first leader.

 

The geneseed section is always pointless. Sad, but true. Except with Cursed Founding chapters.

Still, there should be one.

 

Yes, they would. But right now, he's moved beyond honored into nigh-worshipped. He's EVERYWHERE. And it's a little...grating.

 

He is revered to a degree far, far beyond that of any other Space Marine Chapter Master I can think of. So you need to either explain and justify this better, or tone it down.

 

At the very least, you need to start using pronouns instead of his name.

See above comments.

 

I will be quite frank. Every time people offer advice, you nod, smile, ignore them or make a few small changes, and then add a whole bunch of new stuff. And that is no way to write a good IA.

 

I know adding stuff is fun, but you really need to work on what you've got and get it right before you expand it. And until you can do that, it's not going to improve.

Trouble is I like what I have right now but feel like someone just tore it up. Trouble is I haven't had a decent person review it in ages. Anyway, I'll have a good read-through and try again. And I think I found a compromise for Letalis although It might not go down well...

[Telveryon]

The geneseed section is always pointless. Sad, but true. Except with Cursed Founding chapters.

Still, there should be one.

The gene-seed is not always pointless, for my chapter it's integral to who they are, or at least will be when I manage to finish the damn history... Hubernator, you might try something similar. If you wish to bring back the "swift as the wind" idea, you might wish to say that their Biscopea (yeah, I know, I have an obsession for that gland <_< ) works a little funky and makes them less bulky then other marines but they move faster. Might not be the best idea, but it's a start.

 

As Ben Croshaw often says: The best writing is short. and. punchy.

Octavulg, after reading that little sentence my respect for you shot through the stratosphere. A Ben Croshaw cannot do wrong in my book!

[Octavulg]

I end up throwing out all the stuff though wacko.gif This is gonna be one mighty sieving I've got to do.

 

Don't throw stuff out (well, with the possible exception of the stuff everyone says to throw out). If you throw it out, you have to replace it with other stuff, and then that stuff needs to be revised/criticized.

 

Frankly, it just wears everyone out. :P

 

I've gotten carried away there wacko.gif Waaaaay too carried away. I just liked the guy so much. He was like part of the Phantoms... I think I've overdone him. So less of him and more of the Phantoms...

 

Pretty much. I mean, you can make it all about him by making the chapter all about him, but that's different.

 

Frankly, I usually have to resist the temptation to go on and on and on about Taramant, so I can understand where you're coming from.

 

Well the speedy marines idea kinda got shot down by you actually. Because I wanted them fast and you said no. The idea got scrapped because I couldn't word it any other way at the time. I could try again but bringing it back might be difficult.

 

I did indeed. You wanted them to focus on being really fast, I think you should focus them on perfecting tactics that use speed and maneuverability to achieve victory. They're rather different things.

 

The respect thing I could hold off for another Chapter. Easily.

 

Probably best, then. It's not a bad idea, just the sort of thing you'd need to integrate from the start.

 

Now really I'm not warming to this. This was why I wanted a good war to mark a change.

 

Uh...what? I get the first bit, just not the second.

 

It could work - he's good, and eventually just starts to assume that he's always right. And he is, until one day he's not.

 

Check my stories and you might see why, mainly part III.

 

Honestly, you'd be better to just explain it in the stories. It's not exactly critical to the chapter.

 

And really I don't have any idea on what to base it on.

 

Then you have a problem. Every chapter needs something, whether a theme, a concept, or even just a gimmick.

 

Try summing up the Phantoms in a sentence.

 

Big challenge that. I basically wanted respectful marines who hate Tau and honour their first leader.

 

Respectful?

 

The other two aren't too hard to do, though it might take a little, but what do you mean by respectful, exactly?

 

Still, there should be one.

 

True. Just don't feel that you have to make it interesting. ;)

 

Trouble is I like what I have right now but feel like someone just tore it up.

 

That's cause I did. Such is life.

 

Don't take it personally, and use the despair to fuel you to new heights. ;)

 

Trouble is I haven't had a decent person review it in ages.

 

...You're REALLY good at putting your foot in your mouth, you know. :P

 

Anyway, I'll have a good read-through and try again. And I think I found a compromise for Letalis although It might not go down well...

 

Good luck.

[Hubernator]

The gene-seed is not always pointless, for my chapter it's integral to who they are, or at least will be when I manage to finish the damn history... Hubernator, you might try something similar. If you wish to bring back the "swift as the wind" idea, you might wish to say that their Biscopea (yeah, I know, I have an obsession for that gland wacko.gif ) works a little funky and makes them less bulky then other marines but they move faster. Might not be the best idea, but it's a start.

Not a bad thought there. I'll see into it.

 

***

 

Don't throw stuff out (well, with the possible exception of the stuff everyone says to throw out). If you throw it out, you have to replace it with other stuff, and then that stuff needs to be revised/criticized.

 

Frankly, it just wears everyone out. :P

OK, so re-working it all.

 

I did indeed. You wanted them to focus on being really fast, I think you should focus them on perfecting tactics that use speed and maneuverability to achieve victory. They're rather different things.

Ahhhh. So speedy tactics not speedy marines.

 

Uh...what? I get the first bit, just not the second.

 

It could work - he's good, and eventually just starts to assume that he's always right. And he is, until one day he's not.

Well I wanted something that defines a moment in the Chapter. I didn't really like the classic idea of them hanging around doing some fighting and all the usual things. Yes I could integrate major losses at points but I wanted a really big loss that affects the Chapter.

 

Honestly, you'd be better to just explain it in the stories. It's not exactly critical to the chapter.

Perhaps. I must just have to do that instead.

 

Then you have a problem. Every chapter needs something, whether a theme, a concept, or even just a gimmick.

 

Try summing up the Phantoms in a sentence.

"The Phantoms are Tau-hating speed freaks" :P Well that's what I first wanted. I might go back to that.

 

Respectful?

 

The other two aren't too hard to do, though it might take a little, but what do you mean by respectful, exactly?

Well they build a sort-of "appreciation" of those around them, like other Chapters and enemies. This kinda derived from them hating the Tau, so I kinda built upon it.

 

True. Just don't feel that you have to make it interesting. :)

OK.

 

That's cause I did. Such is life.

 

Don't take it personally, and use the despair to fuel you to new heights. ;)

:D if ya say so

 

...You're REALLY good at putting your foot in your mouth, you know. :P

*smiling and nodding* I have no idea what you just said :P

[OwenCrute]

Ahhhh. So speedy tactics not speedy marines.

 

Instead of evolving a pointy finger, pick up a pointy stick.

[Octavulg]

Instead of evolving a pointy finger, pick up a pointy stick.

 

Exactly.

 

* * *

 

Well I wanted something that defines a moment in the Chapter. I didn't really like the classic idea of them hanging around doing some fighting and all the usual things. Yes I could integrate major losses at points but I wanted a really big loss that affects the Chapter.

 

I think you're misunderstanding me. One idea is that Certamen *is* perfect. He leads them from victory to victory to victory to victory to victory. But eventually, he starts to get complacent and overconfident. And starts to get a little sloppy. And eventually, he's slightly too sloppy and gets lured into a Tau ambush - and is killed. The Phantoms are thus inflamed with rage, since they probably would have started worshipping the ground he walked on after the five hundredth victory or so. <_<

 

The other is that he leads them through a bunch of victories where they're nearly wiped out, but think they would have been completely wiped out if not for him - and thus build a core of fanatics who will follow him through hell.

 

Either one would work.

 

I really don't see how "respectful" derives from hating the Tau. And yes, speedy tactics, not speedy marines.

[Hubernator]

So either Captain Arrogant or the almighty saviour... that's a hard call actually <_< a combo won't work well I fear. Hmmm... I'll mull over it. In the mean time I've ripped out some useless stuff and redone the Origins.

[Octavulg]

So either Captain Arrogant or the almighty saviour... that's a hard call actually sad.gif

 

Alternate options are welcome, but I really can't think of any.

 

a combo won't work well I fear. Hmmm... I'll mull over it.

 

Fair enough.

 

In the mean time I've ripped out some useless stuff and redone the Origins.

 

Indeed you have...

 

In regards to the new origins: Works, though the writing needs a little work. Time will help with that, frankly. The other problem is that Letalis grabs some White Scars and goes but doesn't actually have any Phantoms with him yet. ^_^

 

In regards to combat doctrine - perhaps they hope to follow in the footsteps of the White Scars, but branch out beyond the range of tactics Jaghatai favored to see if new things can be discovered in the art of swift warfare? Or something like that.

 

I'd recommend reading IA White Scars, and working out from there how your boys might differ.

 

Why do they hate the Tau? Is it for destroying Letalis? Are there ideological disagreements as well? Is it the way they subverted humanity after the Damocles Gulf Crusade?

 

If you talk about the gathering of Shadows, you need to explain what Hiro did. IAs are standalone.

 

EDIT: I assume you'll add more to origins about Letalis when you decide exactly what to do with him?

[Hubernator]

I'll take a look. As for the Tau hating I had thought of them generally hating Xenos and extra hating the Tau after someting, which turned into the death of Letalis.

You kinda have to read the stories again, part I. Basically him plus a few squads stayed behind to keep the Tau forces at bay while the rest of the ground forces got away.

 

And I might. My idea is a separate IA for the 1st Company, where I was thinking of talking about Letalis there along with a bit about the CM's role and info about the Company.

[Octavulg]

*Sigh* The point of an IA is that you don't have to read the stories, Hubernator. They're standalone. No prior knowledge of the chapter is necessary to understanding the content of an IA.

 

And doing multiple IAs isn't the right thing to do - honest. Read a bunch of standard IAs, and get a feel for what sort of things they cover.

[Hubernator]

Fair enough. So no second IA or story linkage... now I'm stumped :confused: Man this is proving a hard one. I must be real bad at this.

[Octavulg]

No, you can link to the stories all you want - but reading them shouldn't be necessary for the IA.

 

You're trying to do too much in one thing, and what you want to do doesn't seem exactly suited to the forms of what you are doing, if you follow me.

[Hubernator]

I'm doing too much of something I shouldn't really worry about but should work on the more important things?? or have I missed it again??

[Octavulg]

You have missed it by miles.

 

What you seem to be trying to do doesn't seem to be what a standard IA is. You're trying to fit a whole bunch of stuff into this IA, and some of it fits and some doesn't, and some stuff that should be there isn't.

 

Make more sense?

[Hubernator]

Much more sense. Thanks for the help. Hopefully this should get better. If not feel free to stop me :P

[Hubernator]

Right then. Done some editing. Redid Homeworld and added a bit to Origins about Letalis (and I made sure it was only a bit). Organisation I've rewritten and I've redone the Combat Doctrine. Hopefully it should be better than last time.

 

C&C welcome :devil: