Hubernator Posted July 25, 2008 Author Share Posted July 25, 2008 Tweaked Beliefs now and added a little on Letalis, although it might be too much ;) depends what you think. C&C welcome :huh: Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/138018-the-phantoms-v25/page/5/#findComment-1641341 Share on other sites More sharing options...
flintlocklaser Posted July 25, 2008 Share Posted July 25, 2008 Hubernator, I see you've been doing some work on these guys recently. I'm heading out of town for the weekend, but I'll give it a lookover and post some comments on Monday or Tuesday. Good to see you still working on your own DiY, with all the effort you put into doing paint schemes for everyone else! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/138018-the-phantoms-v25/page/5/#findComment-1641669 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hubernator Posted July 25, 2008 Author Share Posted July 25, 2008 B) yep lots of effort :P Look forward to you input :) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/138018-the-phantoms-v25/page/5/#findComment-1641689 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Telveryon Posted July 25, 2008 Share Posted July 25, 2008 Ok, time to take after my board role model Octavulg and criticize a bit.  This method worked until stray shot from a Hammerhead took Letalis out This little bit here sounds a little bit to anticlimactic... Try something along the line: "This method worked until Letalis was decapitated by a stray Ion cannon shot from a Hammerhead." Quite more gruesome, true... But it a little more involving.  The fleet also has it's own "patch" - it's own area which it "owns". This part again doesn't sound to good, it practically knocks you out of the article... You might try: "The fleet has a sector which it oversees."  Combat Doctrine now.  One of the main changes if not somewhat subtle was their usage of landspeeders and bikes. During a hard-fought battle against the Eldar race the Phantoms made note on how manoeuvrable the Eldar were and attempted to mimic them with the lightweight vehicles they had. Such choice resulted in victory at beating the Eldar at their own game, and the Chapter have now adopted this form of speed for their bikes and landspeeders. ...  Another change is the use of devastator squads and heavy weapons. However this has only extended to as far as defensive stands and large battles. In such cases the few squads with heavy weapons will be transported to a designated area via Rhino or Landraider and rapidly deploy to cause mass havoc. You've practically described how the White Scars fight, why is it different from how they fight? And why did they have to learn it from the Eldar since Letalis, being a White Scar already knew how to fight in such a fashion.  These weren't the only changes. After the death of Letalis the Chapter's ideology of their tactics began to change once again. Since the original tactics of swift strikes and fast maneuvers had failed to work and cost the Phantoms dearly, they began incorporating new tactics. The main ones were mimics of the Tau's tactics, using mobility to their advantage and creating their own form of a killer blow. Thinking flaw sense tingling! Eldar and White Scar stile speed and mobility failed but Tau stile mobility didn't? Sounds a bit odd if you ask me... Tau are good planers and all but I doubt they have much to teach to the White Scars about mobility. Also, one could argue that since the Killing Blow is a Tau specialty they would be able to recognized a variation of it and would know full well how to counter it.  Another soon followed from a battle with the Raven Guard. During a small crusade alongside the Raven Guard Captain Rothgo took heavy note on their style of attack, mainly ambushes, infiltration and sabotage. After the crusade he tried these out in a battle against Orks and found it worked well. Said tactics have been used since. A more recent tactics was terror tactics. After facing off an attack from the Night Lords the Phantoms noticed that the Night lords were using terror tactics to a good extent and decided to try this out against their next encounter with the Tau Empire. Ok... Let's see... The Phantoms had until now White Scar, Eldar and Tau speed and mobility and now they have Raven Guard stile speed, stealth and subterfuge coupled with Night Lords terror tactics. Seems a bit much. Those forces are good at what they do because they concentrate on that aspect of warfare. Plus, learning from traitors would be frowned upon, adapting to the enemy's fighting stile is one thing taking up their tactics is whole other thing  Also the Phantoms seem to take note from everybody they fight with or against. They seem to me very undecided on how they wish to fight, it's almost like a "latest trend" kind of thing...  One of those is of their Chapter Master Letalis Certamen. After his death the Chapter mourned him heavily as they all felt he was their great leader and that he was a big asset to their Chapter. They recovered his body, removed the armour from it and burned it as part of a ritual. The armour was arranged and placed inside a solid Adamantium sarcophagus and the Chapter has vowed never to open it. Those who knew Letalis well often consider him to be as great as a Primarch. These men often tell the new recruits of how good Letalis was. This has lead to the Phantoms almost worshipping their Chapter Master. However even thought they basically worship him they don't honour much of what he set in place before his death, mainly because the higher-ranking Astartes thought his tactics weren't successful anymore. So they practically worship Letalis but don't give a damn of what he said or done? His tactics are no longer applicable yet the Codex Astartes is 10000 years old and is still going strong. Also Letalis had so much success that he was almost considered a demigod, he must have done at least something right. The Phantoms abandoning all he had taught them seem very disrespectful towards Letalis.  This involves many prayers to the Emperor, asking him to look after their fallen Chapter Master. It also involves blessing his sarcophagurised armour so that it remains 'pure' for his return. This is the only place you've mentioned the Phantoms' belief that Letalis will return. It's a bit out of the blue, with no rime nor reason. You should detail this part a bit, mostly why do they believe that. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/138018-the-phantoms-v25/page/5/#findComment-1641762 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hubernator Posted July 25, 2008 Author Share Posted July 25, 2008 Cheers for that ^_^ Changed as requested. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/138018-the-phantoms-v25/page/5/#findComment-1641820 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Telveryon Posted July 25, 2008 Share Posted July 25, 2008 Added allot more criticism to the previous post... It was supposed to be that big from the get go but I accidentally pushed the post button instea of the preview one ^_^ Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/138018-the-phantoms-v25/page/5/#findComment-1641848 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hubernator Posted July 25, 2008 Author Share Posted July 25, 2008 Holy trombones and a pogo stick!! :) I'll deal with the rest tomorrow because it's getting kinda late. I think in simple terms your a little lost on their tactics. WS don't have devastators, I've checked. The bikes and landspeeders was in accordance of how they used them which I think I messed up B) The other small (I do mean small) ideas was thought up between me and a friend. Might have cooked that too ^_^ all is not going well again... Â As I said, tomorrow I'll see to it. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/138018-the-phantoms-v25/page/5/#findComment-1641867 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hubernator Posted July 26, 2008 Author Share Posted July 26, 2008 Had a readthrough of your comments and you do make a valid point. So on that note I've rewritten some of the fluff so it should be more sensible. Â As for Letalis, well, I'm still trying to avoid mentioning him every 5 seconds lol :woot: That part I kinda made up; he was the best and then he failed them. You wouldn't exactly be happy if your all-time hero was just a screw-up would you?? Again you make a decent point so I'll have to revisit that part. Â And oops on the "returning" thing, I kinda scrapped the idea. Although I could resurrect that.... Â Â Cheers for the comment mate ;) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/138018-the-phantoms-v25/page/5/#findComment-1642268 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Telveryon Posted July 26, 2008 Share Posted July 26, 2008 As for Letalis, well, I'm still trying to avoid mentioning him every 5 seconds lol tongue.gif That part I kinda made up; he was the best and then he failed them. You wouldn't exactly be happy if your all-time hero was just a screw-up would you?? Again you make a decent point so I'll have to revisit that part. But if you take a look at this particular quote: This method worked until Letalis was fatally wounded by a stray Ion cannon shot from a Hammerhead, ending his life and leaving the Phantoms reeling. The man didn't fail them, he was blown up by a Hammerhead.... It's not his fault that the Tau gunner got lucky. So you either have to make him do a big blunder or make the chapter stick to his methods as most chapter that respect their chapter masters do. Â But frankly I'm a bigger fan of the "Leads them through a series of costly victories but without him they'd all be dead" idea for Lertalis discussed earlier rather then the "He's so good he gets cocky and make a big blooper" that you've got going on. It's seems to me that you don't have the heart to make him an arrogant bastard so don't. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/138018-the-phantoms-v25/page/5/#findComment-1642389 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hubernator Posted July 26, 2008 Author Share Posted July 26, 2008 Trouble is I don't have the heart to do either option truthfully :P I like the guy too much. I'll ahve a go at the other option to see whether I can get it right. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/138018-the-phantoms-v25/page/5/#findComment-1642403 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Octavulg Posted July 26, 2008 Share Posted July 26, 2008 Er...one option requires you be mean to Letalis. Â The other one requires that Letalis' men take massive casualties in impossible situations, but be rescued by his tactical derring-do. Â How is that last one being mean to him? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/138018-the-phantoms-v25/page/5/#findComment-1642432 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hubernator Posted July 26, 2008 Author Share Posted July 26, 2008 I guess I want him to be "perfect" still. Anyways I went with the second option and actually I can work with it better. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/138018-the-phantoms-v25/page/5/#findComment-1642444 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hubernator Posted July 31, 2008 Author Share Posted July 31, 2008 Might be a large statement to make but I think I've finished for now. I shall add where I see fit but for now I think I have everything. Â Thoughts anyone?? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/138018-the-phantoms-v25/page/5/#findComment-1648468 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paradigm Posted September 25, 2008 Share Posted September 25, 2008 Wow, I'm gone for a few months and a chapter is born! And that land raider! Brother Damascus is genius. This is a much better realization of what this chapter can be! Â Â So as far as the banner goes, Give me some rough idea as to what you are looking for, are you wanting a pretty standard 40k space marine banner(wreath and scrolls, etc?) or something different? Â Btw, Phantoms are officially Cobra Status. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/138018-the-phantoms-v25/page/5/#findComment-1705100 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wolfbiter Posted September 25, 2008 Share Posted September 25, 2008 As the creator of a fellow 25th founding chapter, I feel biased toward liking the Phantoms. :sweat: Â Overall, I like their basic story. I'd be interested to see more fleshing out of some of the tactics (more specifics on how they fight Eldar, and especially Tau, since the Tau appear to be their main enemies.) Â Plus, I think there's some potential in developing what you said about the Phantoms adapting Tau tactics. How do other Chapters and the Imperium feel about this? Is there concern about possible Xenos contamination? Â Oh, and kudos for the veteran color scheme. ;) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/138018-the-phantoms-v25/page/5/#findComment-1705173 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hubernator Posted September 26, 2008 Author Share Posted September 26, 2008 Threadromancy at it's sweetest :huh: Moving on... Â Fortnight: Hello again Fortknight. Long time no rumble :P Again I offer my thanks for helping me out on the Chapter's imagery. My work is not very good yet :P Anyway, for the banner I would like something a little different. Maybe go slightly heavy on the "lightning" aspect of the banner. Â Wolfbiter: Cheers Wolf :huh: Yes I have been thinking of giving the Phantoms IA another look-through. I'll make a note of your questions and see if I can give a helpful answer :lol: Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/138018-the-phantoms-v25/page/5/#findComment-1707116 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Storm Dragons 3rd Company Posted September 26, 2008 Share Posted September 26, 2008 But if you take a look at this particular quote:This method worked until Letalis was fatally wounded by a stray Ion cannon shot from a Hammerhead, ending his life and leaving the Phantoms reeling. The man didn't fail them, he was blown up by a Hammerhead.... It's not his fault that the Tau gunner got lucky. So you either have to make him do a big blunder or make the chapter stick to his methods as most chapter that respect their chapter masters do. Â I had several thoughts on reading this. The first is that while it is sad and anticlimactic, I can sadly see it happen. Can't say how many times I've had a Captain all gearing to go and something unplanned, fatal, and instant death like happens to him like a stray S10 template drifting on top of him. There's a comic about that. My second thought was that isn't there a legend about a great Japanese general, Takeda Shingin, who was killed by a random sniper? General John F. Reynolds was shot out of the saddle at Gettyberg. It happens and the anticlimactic nature made it feel kind of real to me; the sort of thing that happens in a battle. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/138018-the-phantoms-v25/page/5/#findComment-1707140 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hubernator Posted September 26, 2008 Author Share Posted September 26, 2008 Ah yes, the little niggle me, Tel and Octy had. Yes we did debate this: I wanted a short quick death that didn't fry his armour. Tel came up with some ideas and Octy shredded them :P Soon we comprimised though so it's all good now ;) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/138018-the-phantoms-v25/page/5/#findComment-1707233 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paradigm Posted September 26, 2008 Share Posted September 26, 2008 Cool, wreathes are hard lol. I'll try and blow something out over this weekend. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/138018-the-phantoms-v25/page/5/#findComment-1707314 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hubernator Posted September 27, 2008 Author Share Posted September 27, 2008 To be honest I'm not a fan of the whole "wreaths" idea. Not my style. Â I look forward to see what you churn out ;) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/138018-the-phantoms-v25/page/5/#findComment-1707980 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paradigm Posted October 26, 2008 Share Posted October 26, 2008 Tell me what you think of this. Its still wip, and it's backtracking a lot from where it led to, but I didn't like the outcome at all. This is pretty much the last place I was happy with it, so its as good a place as ever to see if you are as well.  http://i33.tinypic.com/ioisd3.jpg  Obviously there are a few things that will be cleaned up, for example the transition between the Phantoms emblem medallion in the corner and the frame. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/138018-the-phantoms-v25/page/5/#findComment-1747691 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hubernator Posted October 26, 2008 Author Share Posted October 26, 2008 Tis very good, although tbh not the best. I like the emblem in the middle of the banner. I mean, it's a good design, especially the name hanging down at the top. I just prefer the emblem in the middle. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/138018-the-phantoms-v25/page/5/#findComment-1747766 Share on other sites More sharing options...
NemFX Posted January 31, 2009 Share Posted January 31, 2009 Wow. All these guys are really harsh. Instead of just criticize or whatever, would you like a hand in re-writing this so hopefully they won't have anything to moan about? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/138018-the-phantoms-v25/page/5/#findComment-1865415 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hubernator Posted January 31, 2009 Author Share Posted January 31, 2009 Uhhhhhhh... Â Â Â No thanks. The point is I want moaners so I can spot all the bad bits and make them right. Doing a whole rewrite now might make things much worse. Besides, I like what I have here :) Â However, if you do spot some errors please point them out so I can correct them :) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/138018-the-phantoms-v25/page/5/#findComment-1865441 Share on other sites More sharing options...
NemFX Posted January 31, 2009 Share Posted January 31, 2009 I wasn't saying to scrap it. Just to re-word it and fix it up and stuff. Generally, what they have been trying to do, just without the harsh criticism angle Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/138018-the-phantoms-v25/page/5/#findComment-1865446 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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