Mort's 5thEd. 10 Game Challenge

[Morticon]

Greets guys !

 

Now, some of you may not be aware that last year, with the release of the BA codex there was a lot of nervous/upset/angry people.

 

We were the 3rd army to receive a re-do with a specific aim for being 5th ed. compatible.

 

Now that was all very well and good, but in a 4th ed. environment the changes were pretty shocking to the vast majority of us BA players.

 

The original Ten Game Challenge wasn't an attempt to show group X fact Y or to try and prove anything.

 

It was merely a personal endeavor, taking the advice of a fellow poster in another forum on BnC saying (paraphrased):

 

We are not able nor warranted to make any claims about the effectiveness of our army/rules until we've actually tried it. Trying doesnt mean mental arithmetic or a once-off game. It means slugging it out- playing a whole bunch of games and trying things that we never thought to try before.

 

 

Having said that, i'm setting myself a new challenge to see how the new BA fair under the new rules system.

 

Enjoy the read.

[Free Spirit]

Please let us know in detail how it turns out, should be an interesting study. When will you start Mort?

[Morticon]

GAME 1.

1750 Points vs. Chaos.

Mission- Counters (5 counters)

Set Up Style – Diagonal

Result- Complete Massacre in my favour.

 

My list:

 

1 Corbulo

8 DC - with JPs (4 bought, 4 inclusive)

10 Tactical Marines – PF, Melta gun, Lascannon – RAZOR BACK – 2LHB.

10 Tactical Marines – PF, Melta gun, Plascannon – RAZOR BACK – 2LHB.

10 Tactical Marines – PW, Flamer – RHINO.

5 Assaulters - Power Weapon, Plasma Pistol.

1 Attack Bike, Multi Melta

1 Attack Bike, Multi Melta

1 Baal - HB

1 Baal – HB

1 Pred – 2LLC, HB

 

His list:

 

 

1 Chaos Sorc Lord – Lash/Wings/Slaanesh

1 Demon Prince – Wings/Tzeentch/Winds/Warp Time

 

10 CSM – Slaanesh, Fist, Melta,Flamer – RHINO (Havoc)

8 CSM – Khornate, PW, Melta - RHINO (Havoc)

10 Thousand Sons – Sorc- Doombolt

6 Demons

6 Demons

5 Raptors – Khorne, Melta, Flamer, LCs

8 Havos – 4MLs, Chaos Glory

1 Pred – HB, 2LLC

 

**********************************

 

General thoughts:

 

++

 

* DC work quite well now with Corbulo. The reason being with a chaplain they kill whatever they hit leaving them stranded and in the open.

 

*Setting up first and going first left me a good selection of where to deploy leaving my opponent with not much place to hide. It also made me rearrange my set up that had been done thinking I may not get first turn.

 

* Vehicles have proved to be much more effective

 

* Corbs giving his ability from within a vehicle is useful and extends the DC control range a bit.

 

- -

 

· Sadly, my opponent didn’t get much of a chance to give me as much of a run for my money as he has been in the past few weeks. I slaughtered him way too quickly in this game

 

Undecided:

 

+ - + - + -

 

The new wound allocation rule is going to be a help and a hindrance with combat squads. While we will get more scoring opportunities, smaller squads mean more checks on specific models.

 

My opponent lost his PF marine and later his Raptor LC champ to the new wound allocation system. Yay!

 

New combat resolution is really interesting and really decisive.

 

 

 

BRIEF GAME OVERVIEW:

 

The game itself was a bit one sided, sadly. Ive been struggling with my opponent for a few weeks now with some very, very tight games (Not to make excuses :) but largely because ive been playing more "fun" lists - this was my first attempt at a a "real" 5th ed list).

 

I won deployment and decided to take first turn. Opponent failed to "Seize the initiative".

 

He deployed his Devs way too close (but in cover) and allowed a Baal, a Pred and a Razor with 5 guys to unload into them (a 5man tac lascaddy squad too).

 

My Rhino moved 12" forward into the thick of things, Razor with corbs in support, DC behind that waiting to counter, with the Jumpers behind them on a counter. Rhino popped smoke and my other baal flanked the right.

Cover saves saves on my vehicles - only managed to do minimal damage. A 5man squad that was lashed and shot failed a moral check, which saved it from being charged by a DP (lucky).

 

Second turn saw the end of his havocs, and me taking out his slaaneshi marked marines. Also, poor placement (due to 5th ed rules allowing you to target ICs not in squads) allowed me to instakill his Sorc. and put everything else into his DP - yay rending baals.

 

From that point it was a downhill struggle. He managed to kill my Rhino squad, and most of my DC, but by the end he had nothing left and his 2nd group of demons could not come in.

 

Game was called at the top of 5th on account of us knowing the outcome.

 

This was a bit one sided, so, i'll have to see how well the do in other situations and other armies. Ill keep you posted.

[Focke]

I have to say that I am looking forward to your next 9 games. I greatly enjoyed your last 10 game challenge, and I don't even play blood angels.

[Marshal Rohr]

Great Victory. Never thought an army like that can pull its weight. Yay, 5th Ed. ! I guess its time to get those Tactical Boxes after all...

[fearlessgod]

I'm glad to see you doing this again Morticon. I'm interested to see how Corbulo does for you. In all my years of playing, I have yet to use him. B) This exercise should be interesting.

 

~fearlessgod~

[Raptor1313]

So if I'm getting that correctly, you can drop Corbs into someone else's dedicated Razorback, and he can play medic/furious charge from within that thing?

 

Sweetness. Expensive, but it gives the guy a hell of an ice cream truck with a heavy bolter on it.

 

As for IC bits, you're saying that now, an IC in the open is a legal target, more or less?

[Morticon]

Thats correct. Anyone can ride anyone's ride! B)

 

And yeah- ICs are now legit targets - which is why they have a new rule which automatically joins them to a squad if they are in 2" (in movement phase).

[Raptor1313]

Suddenly the dedicated transport options got a lot more appealing. Not that we have them so much, but any long footslogger with good guns can ride in a transport now and pop shots out of it, I suppose.

 

This certainly changes up my half-baked plans for running a squad of Assault Terminators along with Corbulo for some nasty I5, S5 lightning claw love...Though, can we now attach ICs in Terminator Armor to Terminator squads and deep strike them together? (...not that I'm sure I'd do it, but if it's an option, I'd like to know. I'm one of the nutjobs that likes Terminators, and wants an excuse to buy more. Besides, assault termies with lightning claws are good anti-horde; more so with Corbulo healing them.)

 

Could you detail just how the new combat-resolution is so decisive? Between that and the part where we can't consolidate into new CCs, it looks like the optimal brawl for us is winning in the enemy's assault phase so we can attempt to charge into combat. From what you've seen, if a person were to run, say, a VAS (or RAS at full strength) and a DC, would it suddenly make a lot more sense to keep the chaplain with the assault squad as opposed to the Death Company?

[Morticon]

Raptor, Yeah you can attach ICs to units before the game and roll em together.

 

Also, I don't wanna bog the thread down with too much rules based issues, but essentially combat is much more decisive in that there is no more "outnumbering" per se, but your LD checks are taken at whatever the wound differential is.

 

ie: You charge in and kill 3 guys, he kills 1 guy - he takes an LD check at minus 2.

or in the case of DC charging ^_^.....

you charge in kill 8 guys, he kills 1 guy - he takes an LD check at minus 7.

 

If he's fearless then in example A - he must take an additional 2 armour saves, and in example B he must take an additional 7 armour saves :tu:

 

PS: next game is tomorrow !

[Raptor1313]

:lol: Well. That's a slight difference.

 

Thanks for the clarification on it; I just wanted something concrete on how we could actually be too killy. (I think I see why we can't consolidate into new close combats...)

 

ARe you going to continue to test Corbulo in a vehicle? I'm curious to see how that fares against a little more long-ranged anti-tank.

 

Chalk me up as another one eagerly awaiting more intel. (I'd gather myself, but Real Life, school, and work are pretty insistent...damn them.)

[Morticon]

Yup yup yup. As suggested by a few members in my last thread im going to try use the same list for a few games - maybe 4 or 5 and then try the fun stuff.

 

So Corbs will be in game tomorrow.

[Leonaides]

Woohoo - Mort's off on another crazy warhampster adventure. I await with baited breath the next few reports and assessments - so much better than the WD reports.

[mynameisowen]

very cool, ive yet to decide whether to put faith into the new codex, and ive never played 5ed rules so very interesting

[Tinen]

Very cool! I been lurking on this forum for about 2 weeks now. Im a new space marine player and decided blood angels look like a fun chapter and fitting to my play style. I read through your previous challenge and learned alot about playing the game and building effective armies. I cant wait to see this new batch!

[King_Pash]

Very cool! I been lurking on this forum for about 2 weeks now. Im a new space marine player and decided blood angels look like a fun chapter and fitting to my play style. I read through your previous challenge and learned alot about playing the game and building effective armies. I cant wait to see this new batch!

 

Firstly, welcome brother! You've chosen wisely. The BA are a great bunch and by far the nicest people on the B&C FORUMS (no prejudice there at all... :unsure: ).

 

Secondly, Morticon, can't wait for the updates on the new battles. Post the updates when you can, we're eager to see the outcome! ;)

[OverchargeThis!]

Woohoo - Mort's off on another crazy warhampster adventure. I await with baited breath the next few reports and assessments - so much better than the WD reports.

 

Mort the warhampster. I should sig that.. Good batrep.

[Morticon]

About to do the Chaos rematch now.

 

Guys as a general request/idea if you would like to suggest particular army types (within 1000-2000pnt range) that you are having trouble with (ie: 5th Ed. enemy armies you are concerned about, then please let me know, and ill try and organise battles against those armies!)

 

Cheers. Off to game!

[King_Pash]

About to do the Chaos rematch now.

 

Guys as a general request/idea if you would like to suggest particular army types (within 1000-2000pnt range) that you are having trouble with (ie: 5th Ed. enemy armies you are concerned about, then please let me know, and ill try and organise battles against those armies!)

 

Cheers. Off to game!

 

Nidz! The bugs and the green-scum. Horde armies pretty much. Anything like that would be awesome. :rolleyes:

[DevianID]

I want to see a 1750 pt ork match up with 180 shoota boyz, a PK nob in each, Ghazgul and big mek with forcefield for HQ, and 12 big shootas 6 rokkits spread in the squads of boyz. Basicly the standard 'i win' horde ork army.

[Morticon]

GAME 2.

1750 Points vs. Chaos. (Rematch)

Mission- Annihilation (Kill Point mish)

Set Up Style – Dawn Of War (New "escalation style" mish)

Result- Victory BA. (close though B) )

 

My list - same as GAME 1:

 

1 Corbulo

8 DC - with JPs (4 bought, 4 inclusive)

10 Tactical Marines – PF, Melta gun, Lascannon – RAZOR BACK – 2LHB.

10 Tactical Marines – PF, Melta gun, Plascannon – RAZOR BACK – 2LHB.

10 Tactical Marines – PW, Flamer – RHINO.

5 Assaulters - Power Weapon, Plasma Pistol.

1 Attack Bike, Multi Melta

1 Attack Bike, Multi Melta

1 Baal - HB

1 Baal – HB

1 Pred – 2LLC, HB

 

(16KP as I play them >_< )

 

 

HIS LIST -

 

Sorc - Wings, Slaanesh, Lash

Greater Demon

 

9 Zerks- Champ - PW - RHINO - Havoc

10 CSM - Slaanesh - PF, PG, MG

9 T-Sons - Sorc- Doom Bolt - RHINO - Havoc

6 Havoc - 4MLs - Nurgle

6 Raptors - Slaanesh - LCs, MG, MG

2 Oblits

1 Pred -2LLC, HBs

 

(9 KP)

 

**********************************

 

General thoughts:

 

++

 

* The number one thing I noticed was Corb's FC ability is just awesome. Playing him in this style is really helping my list. However, im not entirely sure about his ability to work from within a vehicle anymore. There is nothing to say he can or cant. The only precedent is that Troops can claim from within a transport. So...we should try ask about this.

 

* The ability to use each others vehicles is amazing. Really really handy.

 

* The ability for infantry to screen tanks is amazing.

 

* Friendlies with plasma cannons/other blast templates can shoot "through" enemy vehicles to the hiding guys bunched on the other side

 

* Last man standing is gone. AWESOME !! Very useful for small SM squads.

 

* Vehicles are much tougher. Out of the 9 vehicles on the board at the start 7 still remained with only 2 of those 7 being immobed. BUT....

 

 

- -

 

* Vehicle saves are fickle.

 

* The baals, as good as they were before suffer a tiny bit in this mission due to their 24" range.

 

* The new wound allocation REALLY screws the DC im sorry to say. More than the rending nerf >_< This is gonna make a lot of BA players very unhappy, but the flip side is you are not likely to kill a squad outright (without a chaplain anyway) and be left standing out in the open.

 

* I had 16 KP on the table to his 9. Combat squads are both a boon and a bane. I would recommend using the combat squad tactic carefully - even if you are used to splitting them up consider not doing it in this mission - and vice-versa for others. To be fair though, I would have only gotten 2 KP less. (Im now oging to have to think about consolidating the melta bikes into one unit.

 

* Enemies with plasma cannons/other blast templates can shoot "through" your vehicles to the hiding guys bunched on the other side

 

BRIEF GAME OVERVIEW:

 

He gets the roll for 1st turn and decides to take it. I fail to "seize the initiative".

 

He deploys Khorne Zerk squad, and Slaaneshi marked CSM.

His first turn sees him bring on his havocs, and his Thousand Sons. Thousand sons take a few shots at the las caddy squad killing 3/5.

His Rhinos havoc launcher makes use of the new rules for blast weapons targeting the Razor back- but more important the squad i had grouped behind the razor totally out of LOS - and perfectly valid target for blasts** WATCH OUT FOR THIS!!

 

He only manages 1 casualty as Corbs saves one more.

 

My first turn I bring on everything.

 

My DC gun for his Zerks - which are now in charge range. I load up corbs and try move him towards the DC. My pred snipes his Sorc. His Sorc passes cover.

Most of the other boys converge on the left, while my baals come in to support on the left.

Im splitting up much more than im comfortable, but not feeling too badly about it at present >_<

I take some shots at thousand sons- doing 3 wounds in total. Not much else shooting sadly. The DC charge the zerks. New wound allocation* means I only do a grand total of 4 unsaved wounds from 8dc. He does 2 in return.

 

Second turn sees me take a few more lascaddy casualties, and everything ecept his greater demon come on. The added anti tank in the mix makes 4th-ed-like short work of my vehicles. I lose a baal, get one immobed and the pred stunned. His Sorc charges in to kill my DC.

 

I move into position and take out his DS raptors with a plasma cannon shot. Melta-bikes fail to touch the Oblits >_< My 5man combat squad fails to reach combat to support the 5man RAS that charged the 10man slaaneshi. They hold up though, only losing 2men while doing 4 casualties to the enemy. Final DC makes a lame attempt to cut down the lord (or at least balance the wounds) fails and gets cut down by being dragged down (2 extra wounds from the wound difference).

 

Third turn sees him make a tactical mistake (in my mind) not making use of lash - he is over-scared of the melta bikes and instead targets them, leaving my troops open.

He fails to do too much damage this turn, however he does immobilise my baal again- destroying one of the HBs. Combat is tied with the Slaaneshi squad and the Zerker gets killed by the tough biker.

 

My 3rd turn sees the support come in to clean up the Slaaneshi boys. I take out the Blits with massed firepower with whatever I had.

Corbs is continually saving my butt regards FC.

 

His 4th - Demon comes on. My army is largely castled on the left and his army is sadly depleted leaving his options to deploy the greater demon limited. He choses to lose his TSons Champ on the far left out of the game. His Sorc winds up killing my biker leaving him open in my phase. My combined firepower sees me rolling some VERY lucky dice vs. the Nurgle Havocs - killing 4 of 6.

 

5th and 6th turns see us trying to consolidate as much as we can and gun for as many kill points as possible. The game ends with him having killed 6 KP worth of stuff and me having killed 7 and Corbs and the Demon having gone toe to toe for 2 rounds :)

 

VERY tight. If we went one more turn he would have killed Corbs and possibly another vehicle, making it VERY tough for me to get one more KP.

 

 

 

______________________________________

 

Over-all im finding 5th VERY smooth and very fun. There are a few things that irk you at the beginning cause you are not used to seeing it. eg: Blasts scattering out of LOS/Range etc but im really enjoying so far.

[Raptor1313]

So escalation survived...lovely.

 

Interesting note on the Kill Points. For those that run heavy/assault weapon tacs, that's kind of a downer for that tactic. I suppose it does depend heavily on what you expect to face; but I assume your list would see if it expects to have something come to it, and then you just set up all your troops to counter-assault and such. To clarify (as I think I'm reading it right, but want to be sure) basically each unit (HQ, Combat Squad, etc.) is worth a KP if it's not a dedicated transport?

 

That plasma cannon bit might make me actually consider running one or two on occasion.

 

So far, it sounds like Chaplains are almost a bad investment with the Death Company. Do you think running a chaplain connected to a VAS/RAS and keeping the DC nearby is a useful alternative, or are the Litanies of Hatred just too powerful now?

 

With the las/HB predator, do you find the new defensive weapon restrictions to be a big problem?

 

Are the Baals performing as hyped?

 

5-man Assaulters with PW/Plasma are working out well? Seems a bit pricy, but they do provide a mobile reserve.

 

Multi-melta bikes in a single unit, Y/N/Maybe? Advantage in Kill Points to be sure, but with vehicle durability, wouldn't you probably want to put more shots into a vehicle to make sure it dies?

 

Consideration for later testing...the 8-man VAS w/ PF, Meltagun and Flamer (a basic general-duty config) costs 265. The 10-man RAS w/ Powerfist costs 275; more with plasma pistols. Do you think the extra scoring unit or extra killy power would be more useful, or is that too list-dependent? I ask mostly because it's not uncommon to see someone bust out a couple of 5-man RAS and then load up on VAS, but with the scoring-unit changes, it's different.

 

I also second the calls for matches against horde armies in general. The intel provided against marines is useful, but a full 10-game sample of mariens-only isn't as useful as a more varied sample.

 

Good hunting.

[Morticon]

Each unit including dedicated transports as its written now are worth 1KP.

 

The rule states 1KP for every unit in your army. This also means that dedicated transports can contest objectives.

 

Personally, I think the Chaplain is a great "Ace in the hole" for your army with the DC. But to run him all the time with the DC will wind you in trouble.

 

I will be trying him out running as you said with either a VAS/RAS and running the DC nearby.

 

The baals arent bad, but still too early to tell. The ability to move and fire everything is great. That said, the Las/HB needs to be used a lot more tactically now, but its not "nail in the coffin" bad as some may have you believe.

 

As for the 5man assaulters- its something new- so I cant comment with any authority yet but they've done fantastically so far. Great for claiming and small enough to be ignored until they show themselves. It does burn me that I can get an HG or a VAS for similar costs with more options, but I wanna max claimy!

 

Horde armies will be coming up later next week. Both nids and Orks are on the cards, though there arent many pure horde ork armies- so i'll have to see what i can do about that.

 

Do you think the extra scoring unit or extra killy power would be more useful, or is that too list-dependent?

 

I think one of the best things about 5th ed. is that its going to open up the playing field so much more. What I mean is, players will find their own balance of what works in relation to killy vs. claimy( did i just invent an adjective?). It will be entirely list and player dependent and finding that balance will be so much more difficult because of the way it will interact with the enemy lists. The "rock-paper-scissors" aspect will become much more widely defined. Personally, I think thats an excellent thing for the game.

[Angelust]

I heartily agree Mort. 5th seems to be an improvement in many aspects, especially in allowing more freedom in designing the kind of army you want to run.

 

Overall the balance just seems much better in general.

[fearlessgod]

Nice report Morticon. I'm finding this thread very helpful in assessing 5th Edition gaming. I'm paying particular attention to how the DC, RAS and VAS fare, as they seem to be the "game winners" in many of my games.

 

~fearlessgod~