Mort's 5thEd. 10 Game Challenge

[Mdigibou]

Dedicated transports cannot claim objectives, but do count as a KP in missions.

 

I played a game vs kroot mercenaries. my 1850, his 2000

Since this is a challenge to try out new things, I deepstruck my entire army (lol) besides scouts and pred/vindi

 

essentially, each piece of my army came down and demolished entire sections of his. one 5 man VaS took out 15 kroot, then lost 2 men, then took out another 15 through morale. The only trouble was his shaper squadron, which charged the DC on the turn they deepstruck, along with 2 other 8 man hounds squads (his only scoring units) the DC split enough attacks to reduce both to dust, then the shaper squad only managed to kill 3 (of the 8).

 

The game wound up in a tie (we played a 4th ed mission, recon) with 2 units in each other's zone.

 

I found that the new sniper rules make them MUCH more attractive vs things like marines and termies, which being still somewhat useful vs hordes w/ 6+ armour, while vs GeQ they are just dirt.

Dante is an absolute beast.

DC are susceptible to sniper fire now =(

annnnnd the new rules for hitting vehicles + their lack of mobility hurts a ton vs enemies that do have mobility. RaS w/ power weapon + melta bombs is probabaly more effective now than the normal fist setup.

The new morale modifiers for CC make winning CC top priority. Its tough to lose to horde armies, though, as almost always you will win combat overall and force more wounds. Its a good balancing system, but somewhat too powerful for small # of durable units with large # of attacks (honour guard w/ chapter banner anyone?)

[Godhead]

I'm probably a minority in this, but if you find yourself changing your list some, would you care to toss in a landspeeder or two just to see how they pan out? There's been alot of doomsaying considering their viabilty in 5th and I've typically ran 2-4 in my games. They have been stellar performers for me in 4th ed. So like I said, if you find yourself in a position to give one or two a try i'd appreciate it.

[hairojin]

Yes please, I'm interested in that too. Especially the MM/HFlamer variant. I've been thinking about getting one of those.

[Chaplain Lucifer]

Wait.. how can vehicles not block LoS to the troops behind them? am I missing something here?

[Remmah]

Skimmers don't block LoS. Vehicles do as far as i know.

 

I was planning to get a few rhinos just to make sure there is at least some good terrain on the table. Even if i have to pay points for them.

[Godhead]

I thought he said it was because all blast template weapons scatter, so you could target the rhino and the plasma cannons could scatter back over your troops hidden behind it. I think.. I def could be wrong.

[Mdigibou]

ALL vehicles block LoS in 5th, even skimmers (AWESOME for tau btw)

 

the MM/HF variant will likely get use, as it can only fire one weapon if moving 12" anyways (and if you fire one you prolly wont fire the other), and immoblized skimmers dont crash unless they move over 12", they simply land.

[Morticon]

Godhead was right!

For blast weapons, if you have your guys bunched up behind a rhino/vehicle your enemy can position a blast marker to hit the vehicle as the primary, but include a bunch of guys behind it (out of LOS) which is perfectly viable in 5th.

 

As for the skimmers - yeah- they do block LOS for what you see is what you get - so you use models eye view to determine how much of the target is blocked by the speeder.

[Marshal Rohr]

Godhead was right!

For blast weapons, if you have your guys bunched up behind a rhino/vehicle your enemy can position a blast marker to hit the vehicle as the primary, but include a bunch of guys behind it (out of LOS) which is perfectly viable in 5th.

 

As for the skimmers - yeah- they do block LOS for what you see is what you get - so you use models eye view to determine how much of the target is blocked by the speeder.

 

 

You can do thatwith missile weapons in fantasy because they sometime go out of their range. It is however looked down upon......... but who cares

[Harmattan]

Do you think running a chaplain connected to a VAS/RAS and keeping the DC nearby is a useful alternative, or are the Litanies of Hatred just too powerful now?

 

A little question on the RAS/VAS-Chaplain-DC combo in the 5th: If an IC joins the squad within 2" automatically, could an IC join two squads if both are within 2"? (...leading to Litanies for both squads... :P )

 

@Morticon: great reports!

[Morticon]

I suppose those flying bases will be used more often for fish of fury. I wonder if you can remove those bases mid-game...?

 

You're not allowed to remove the bases, the new rules are very explicit with regards skimmer flying bases now! :)

 

Harmattan - If the IC is within 2" he must choose which squad he is with.

[Demoulius]

love the games mort! some of the 5th edition rules are abit iffy if you ask me. specialy the ease at with you get a cover save :P

 

il wait for the other games though and see what other cool stuff you can report :)

[Morticon]

Quick note- ive split the topic to take some of the questions out.

 

You can find it in Amicus - here

[Furioso72001]

Mort how did the plasmacannon and lascannon combat squad do?

 

Usually when i combat squad one heavy weapon in the squad of 4 bolters they dont do anything O_o.

 

Just wanna know if its a waste of points? If putting all of them in a rhino with just five tacticals is better then combat squad 5 guys with a heavy weapon hoping to kill something =/.

 

Or did you just run the the melta and pf combat squad up while the razorbacks and gun squad got in shooting position?

[Cheesus]

Hey Mort, just a quick suggestion about Corbulo. I have been running him for about three months now, and he kicks ass. However, a great way to add to his power is to add a honor guard, with a priest and two plasmagunners. Put them in a rhino and then run amok. Two priests are great, the plasmagunners can fire out of the rhino, and Corbulo cant be killed until the rhino gets destroyed. Priests are the ultimate answer to the new wound allocation rules, as you can save the key models (such as chaplains or heavy weapon troopers).

[the jeske]

its too dangerous . too many pts in a rhino , even in the 5th , will get creamed fast . its better to keep it safe and low pts cost or use the new land raider and never disembark corbulo .

[Morticon]

Mort how did the plasmacannon and lascannon combat squad do?

 

Usually when i combat squad one heavy weapon in the squad of 4 bolters they dont do anything O_o.

 

Just wanna know if its a waste of points? If putting all of them in a rhino with just five tacticals is better then combat squad 5 guys with a heavy weapon hoping to kill something =/.

 

Or did you just run the the melta and pf combat squad up while the razorbacks and gun squad got in shooting position?

 

 

Well- i run two different configs. The first is the Rhino borne squad - which is a 10man.

The 5man combat squads serve two purposes.

The first is fire support. Technically yes, their bolters are "wasted". I look at it as though they are just waiting. When I have no lascannon targets, I move/run them. Likewise for the PC.

 

The second role is nearby objective claiming, these guys rarely take hits on account of the fact they're only putting out one heavy weapon shot a turn - not enough to warrant enemy attention, which keeps them alive and claimy !

 

 

Hey Mort, just a quick suggestion about Corbulo. I have been running him for about three months now, and he kicks ass. However, a great way to add to his power is to add a honor guard, with a priest and two plasmagunners. Put them in a rhino and then run amok. Two priests are great, the plasmagunners can fire out of the rhino, and Corbulo cant be killed until the rhino gets destroyed. Priests are the ultimate answer to the new wound allocation rules, as you can save the key models (such as chaplains or heavy weapon troopers).

 

 

I may try the Honour Guard in some later games - but as Jeske mentioned, its very expensive. Also, remember that now you cant shoot out of a rhino if you move at cruising speed+ so, its not as good as 4th ed. Still 315 points in one squad that needs to be 12" away from an enemy is something that makes me nervous.

I do agree 100% about the priest and the allocation - which is whats tempting me to play the HG more.

 

My next games are tomorrow!

[Cheesus]

Hey Mort, just a quick suggestion about Corbulo. I have been running him for about three months now, and he kicks ass. However, a great way to add to his power is to add a honor guard, with a priest and two plasmagunners. Put them in a rhino and then run amok. Two priests are great, the plasmagunners can fire out of the rhino, and Corbulo cant be killed until the rhino gets destroyed. Priests are the ultimate answer to the new wound allocation rules, as you can save the key models (such as chaplains or heavy weapon troopers).

 

 

I may try the Honour Guard in some later games - but as Jeske mentioned, its very expensive. Also, remember that now you cant shoot out of a rhino if you move at cruising speed+ so, its not as good as 4th ed. Still 315 points in one squad that needs to be 12" away from an enemy is something that makes me nervous.

I do agree 100% about the priest and the allocation - which is whats tempting me to play the HG more.

 

 

Yes it is expensive, but in many of the games I play they never take a wound. Two apothecaries is simply wonderful, generally once they get shot at once, they never get shot at again, it is just so hard to take them out.

[Morticon]

GAME 3.

1750 Points vs. Eldar

Mission- Capture and Control

Set Up Style – Spear Head (Quarters)

Result- Victory BA.

 

My list - same as GAME 1:

 

1 Corbulo

8 DC - with JPs (4 bought, 4 inclusive)

10 Tactical Marines – PF, Melta gun, Lascannon – RAZOR BACK – 2LHB.

10 Tactical Marines – PF, Melta gun, Plascannon – RAZOR BACK – 2LHB.

10 Tactical Marines – PW, Flamer – RHINO.

5 Assaulters - Power Weapon, Plasma Pistol.

1 Attack Bike, Multi Melta

1 Attack Bike, Multi Melta

1 Baal - HB

1 Baal – HB

1 Pred – 2LLC, HB

 

 

HIS LIST -

 

Eldrad Ulthran

 

10 Avengers - Defend, Bladestrom, Swd/shld,

3 Bikes - Cannon

3 Bikes - Cannon

10 Guardian- Warlock - embolden - Bright Lance

10 Guardian- Warlock - embolden - Bright Lance

10 Guardian- Warlock - embolden - Bright Lance

 

8 Harlies - Seer

8 Scorpions - Chain Sabre, Surprise

1 Wraithlord - Bright Lance/Missile Launcher

1 Wraithlord - Bright Lance/Missile Launcher

1 Wraithlord - Scatter Laser/Star Cannon

 

 

**********************************

 

General thoughts:

 

++

 

Not too many general observations this game. Everything played as I believe it should have. Only thing particularly notable was...

 

+ Vehicles- again. With the amount of lances about, the fact that I still had a pred, a rhino and a immobed pred at the end of the game is testament to their hardiness. I didt even cover them well.

 

 

- - -

 

- This mission is going to frustrate a lot of people - particularly if you play it in the quarter style. Opponents will automatically place their counters at opposite/far ends ot the board and games will be long and contracted and often unfulfilling. In cases like this, armies with a few hidden aces - ie: outflankers, deepstrikers etc will be VERY powerful. Mark my words, as soon as the book his the shelf, people will start complaining about this mission in "Spearhead" (quarter style deployment)

 

- The Baals rolled a few 1's this game for the OCEs >_< But, cant be helped. Just something you have to take into consideration.

 

- The new Defensive weapons as S4 hurt >_<

 

- Corbs didnt do too much this mission as I needed him close to my DC (up right flank) while my tacs where in the middle centre

- + - + - + - +

 

+- Im thinking more and more about twin las/autocannon pred now, since the las pred seems to fall back to support anyway.

 

+- I recommend, if you can scrape the points, pintle mounted weapons on your razors and rhinos, not for offensive power at all, but for more life on the vehicle damage table. Having 1 weapon extra to take away before being immobilised will save our skins more than you'd think.

 

+- I havent made full use of the "go to ground" rules yet and should remember to use it more, though against the most recent opponents I havent had the need to as such.

 

BRIEF GAME OVERVIEW:

 

 

I opted to take second turn. He chose his quarter and placed, I counter placed with most of my vehicles behind cover, but my razors in view blocking LOS to my troops.

I elected to keep my Jump Packers in reserve to try make an attempt for the objective which he placed in the farthest corner of his quarter, guarded by a guardian squad right at the back and the rest of the army right up near the centre.

 

Additionally, i figured since there was only one objective, I shouldnt split the tactical squads. I kept them as 10 man (though in retrospect, the amount of shooting he was doing at other targets, i would have been better off using combat squads.)

 

 

I did however attempt to "Steal the Initiative" which I GOT ! WHoohoo!

He was a bit upset cause obviously had planned otherwise. This first turn switch allowed me to take out one wraithlord that was out of cover and move my razors up a little bit.

 

His first turn saw a lucky Immob result on my rhino (biker cannon), and another immob on my pred (which eventually stayed the whole game in that state).

 

Throughout the following four turns, the game was a mid range shoot fest for most of it; me keeping the DC out of sight until later game after having moved 4 of my vehicles around the right flank.

The tacs and bikers took mid stage as they took surprisingly little initial fire due to the tank threat.

 

My jumpers came on in the 2nd last turn only (luckily). His scorps came on late too - which didnt allow him to do much with them.

 

The game was very tight, as it usually is with this particular opponent. (Hes very, very good). He had one or two bad luck rolls and one or two very good luck rolls.

The game was a draw until the last turn where I was a bit sneaky and just pipped him to clench victory. I made full use of the new LOS rules, shooting through a forest and a building to snipe one of his lone bikers with a Lascannon,while my Attack biker tied up his 2 of 3 man remaining biker squad. My assault squad had pulled his guardians off his objective allowing me to claim my objective while he had nothing in range to claim his. His last turn had seen most of his units tied up in combat or unable to get to where he needed to go in order to contest and or claim.

 

Objectives - 1 - 0 ! Victory BA.

 

The biggest lesson learned here was this mission. Its gonna be really tough I feel. Worth giving it some thought.

 

Hope that helps!

[NaZ]

this mission may come down to successfully contesting the enemy objective like you did.

 

I think deep striking the death company right there (close enough to avoid the mishap table) and just eating a turn of fire might have been worth it.

 

NaZ

[Raptor1313]

That is rather surprising your vehicles lasted so well against a half-dozen lances.

 

Beyond that, it's a good lesson to keep some mobility in the list. Going full-static seems to be a bad idea in the new 5th environ, but with the durability boost vehicles get, you can pull off a mechanized strategy much better.

[Morticon]

GAME 4.

1750 Points vs. Necrons

Mission- Objectives (5)

Set Up Style – Dawn of War (New type of escalation-esque game)

Result- Victory BA.

 

My list - same as GAME 1:

 

1 Corbulo

8 DC - with JPs (4 bought, 4 inclusive)

10 Tactical Marines – PF, Melta gun, Lascannon – RAZOR BACK – 2LHB.

10 Tactical Marines – PF, Melta gun, Plascannon – RAZOR BACK – 2LHB.

10 Tactical Marines – PW, Flamer – RHINO.

5 Assaulters - Power Weapon, Plasma Pistol.

1 Attack Bike, Multi Melta

1 Attack Bike, Multi Melta

1 Baal - HB

1 Baal – HB

1 Pred – 2LLC, HB

 

 

HIS LIST - (Bookwrack's Crons)

 

Lord, Veil

 

10 Warriors

10 Warriors

14 Warriors

10 Immortals

6 Immortals

5 Scarab Swarms

1 Monolith

1 Monolith

 

**********************************

 

General thoughts:

 

++

 

+ Its not really a 5th ed. thing but in 5th its as/more powerful - The Plasma cannon is just crazy cool The partials = fulls makes it such a potent weapon.

 

+ Run is really cool - allowing such awesome mobility.

 

+ Getting to go place first in Dawn Of War may be a drawback as usual in the case of last turn objective grabs, but the ability to really push the opponent back is great. DOW deploys in table halves. With our combat squad ability, we can really funnel the enemy to where we want him. (Table halves means up to 24" - added to a 18" pushback- we've got some great ability to dictate where at least a section of his force will go.

 

- - -

 

- Gauss weapons left me wanting pintle mounted weapons on my Razors/Rhinos just so I could keep them from being immobed.

 

- I dont have nearly enough of anything to take down a 'lith >_< Let alone two.

 

- My DC felt, for the first time, that they really needed a chaplain for the assault! I was tied up in combat for 7 assault phases with 10 warriors. >_< What a joke. He was very lucky with his leadership rolls.

 

- Be careful about wanting to run a character to join a squad. You cant >_< I almost got Corbs killed by running him near a squad to "join up" when i realised he can only join in the movement phase.

 

- + - + - + - +

 

+- The lith confirmed more and more about twin las/autocannon pred now, since the las pred seems to fall back to support anyway. Alternatively the new Vindy I bought in place of a baal :|

 

+-Once more, no need for use of the "go to ground" rules yet and should remember to use it more, though against the most recent opponents I havent had the need to as such.

 

BRIEF GAME OVERVIEW:

 

 

The mission was the new style Dawn Of War, where we place only 1 HQ and 2 Troops (ever). The rest comes in from the first turn (from your board edge) or in strategic reserves- rolled for as normal.

 

 

I split the tacticals for this as usual since I knew id be grabbing up 5 objectives. In my first turn, i brought everything on, as I had done before in this scenario. My first turn saw my guys move up and unfortunately, since I cant use overcharge engines on the turn I arrive (RB clarification) i was limited in my firepower output. I immediately went o work on one set of warriors taking a few casualties.

His first turn saw him bring on the scarabs and the immortals. He then took some pot shots at my guys - immobing my Razor. Sadly for him though, he misjudged my DC jumping distance (or didnt and wanted them tied up with the warriors) and got charged. Luckily for him, I didnt do too many wounds (4) and he passed his LD check at -4 >_<

A few crons kept coming back every round and as mentioned I got caught here for 7 phases >_<

 

His one lith came down in the second, and unfortunately stared going to work on all my vehicles and nearby troops putting out 24 gauss shots on various targets. Anyway, i ignored the liths with what I could and focussed on the crons.

In his turn, he veiled his immortals to behind my plasma cannon squad and opened up- killing 4 including the cannoner- which Corbs saved ;) They broke though, but far enough to regroup in their turn and plasma the immortals.

 

He had one VERY unlucky moment where his Lith pie-plate scattered 8" onto his warrior squad, covering 11 - BUT only wounding 5 (thats 6x 1's >_< )

The next few turns saw me and hm trading fire with various things, but me largely concentrating on the crons- which paid off as I managed to phase him out in the 5th turn.

 

He could have played a slightly tighter game keeping his units focussed, using the Liths as his screening walls of death, but not bad overall.

 

Orks coming soon!

[Julius Firefocht]

Mort, I just read the 5th Ed rulebook thoroughly, and I find your use of Corbulo's ability to grant Furious Charge from the firing point of a transport vehicle rather...iffy. The rule for fire points specifically states that passengers may fire or use psychic powers using the fire point, while saying nothing of passive "aura" abilities such as Dante's Inspiring and Corbulo's Red Grail.

 

Also, the wording of the Red Grail under Corbulo's entry in the BA codex states that any Blood Angel unit within 12" of Corbulo at the start of its own assault phase receives the Furious Charge ability for the rest of the turn. While it can be easily interpreted that since Corbulo is in a vehicle and thus may grant this bonus to units within 12" of the vehicle, it can also be easily argued that Corbulo is in a vehicle and thus his model is not on the table, rendering the bonuses of the Red Grail null and void.

 

I don't know. I love the idea, using our now durable Rhinos to ferry Corbulo around, granting Furious Charge to surrounding units and controlling the Death Company, all from the safety of a vehicle no less. But I am truly doubtful that it can be done with a totally waterproof interpretation of the rules, which is precisely what we need in a tournament.

[DevianID]

While I echo Julius' sentiment about the aura being iffy in a tourney, due to the RAW about not using wargear while inside a transport, the source comes from the fourth edition FAQ for space marines in regards to... I think its Rites of Battle and psychic hoods?

 

So yes, while in the 4th ed SM codex using special abilities and wargear in a transport was a no-no, in the chaos SM codex it clearly states you do get the bonus for their teleport homer wargear in a vehicle, and whats more the 6 inch range is measured from anywhere on the hull, not even from an access point on the vehicle. So at this point there is no unified rule stating that all wargear/special abilities are no longer able to be used in a transport, unless someone else found something I missed.

 

Edit: on the 10 game topic...

Good job versus the 'crons. I would have thought he would have moved/deepstruck the monoliths and walked all the warriors/immortals on during turn 1, thus leaving you nothing to shoot at during turn 1 since you deployed up so far, and your reinforcements would be farther away. I see many monolith deepstriking trios in the future, since the AP1 pie plate will cream vehicles while the monolith will suffer little in return damage and cant ever be destroyed by glances. Also, did he not have a rez orb???

[Morticon]

Regarding Corbs in the Rhino/Razor.

 

There are at least two precedents so far which set 5th apart from 4th as far as units in vehicles are concerned.

 

But before that, just a side note. Just remember that RB FAQs for a different edition don't count at all.

 

Firstly, they've done away with the concept of units embarked being offboard as units in vehicles can now capture.

 

Additionally, there are rules in current Chaos codex (as mentioned).

 

Important to note that....

 

I do however agree that its not 100% definitive and as a result have not been using corbs abilty from within the vehicle- choosing to disembark when he needs to give help.

 

But we must realise that a new precedent is being set.