Beserkers vs Possessed

[meeper]

I was wondering if anyone has actually done any testing concerning possessed? I know zerkers are the go to unit for CC at face value, but what about a unit of possessed? (as over priced as they may be)

 

I look at the unit choice like this.

 

Rhino-35 pts

 

Bezerkers (10) champ upgraded to power fist- 250

 

or

 

Possessed (9) w/ icon of slannesh- 254

 

Perks of zerkers,

 

furious charge, more attacks, better weapon skill meaning that those attacks will actually be hitting, power fist champ of course, grenades. Cheaper per unit, counts as a troop choice.

 

Downsides

 

Vulnerable and lose effectiveness if they get charged first. depend on constant charges to keep their effectiveness.

 

Perks of Possessed

 

Invulnerable save of course, can take an icon like the slannesh icon giving them a permanent furious charge. If you get lucky you can roll for an awesome close combat unit, with the coming fifth edition, if they get the scouts special rule, their rhino goes with them.

 

Downsides

 

expensive as hell, the random special rule they get may not be all that useful if you are fighting against an enemy that fights better than you in hand to hand. if the icon bearer goes down, their effectiveness decreases. they have fewer attacks and less of a weapon skill so those attacks might not hit as much. no ranged attack (hey it helps!) takes up an elites slot.

 

what are everyone's thoughts?

[Dammeron]

Dump the Possessed; they are little more than a grand waste of points under the current army list.

[Dam13n]

I would take 'zerkers any day over possessed, for the following reasons:

 

1 - Zerkers are considerably cheaper 21pts/model compared to 26

2 - In 5th Edition Zerkers will be scoring units, possessed will not

3 - Zerkers get more attacks than possessed in any situation

4 - If you're going to take a rhino, the 5+ invulnerable is useless

5 - Zerkers are more reliable, you know what you're getting so can plan in advance

what you're going to do with them

 

The possessed are really nice models, but the rules do not justify them, they get

outperformed by Zerkers 5/6 games (the 1/6 chance of getting power weapons)

and because of how they look they'll be targeted and killed off early.

 

You mentioned the Rhino, with 5th edition adding the run rule, I would expect most

people to decide against taking a rhino for a dedicated assault unit (as they'll move 7-12"

a turn without it, not a huge decrease, and it means you should be in combat by turn

2 or 3 with at least 1 or 2 units, so the rhino becomes a little redundant except as a

way to block LOS.

 

Laterz...

[King Tiger]

I would take Possessed over Zerkers, I enjoy there randomness as it keeps me on my toes a little, and I prefer the models dramatically, which is all I personally need to take them in an army

[meeper]

The possessed are really nice models, but the rules do not justify them, they get

outperformed by Zerkers 5/6 games (the 1/6 chance of getting power weapons)

and because of how they look they'll be targeted and killed off early.

 

well, rending, the furious charge, feel no pain are nothing to be scoffed at either. also the invulnerable save is good against the odd powerfist or power weapon leader in a squad wouldnt you say?

 

Though i did not consider the scoring unit part. your right about the more attacks thing unless you go with icon of khorne then the unit just becomes even more expensive, i would rather give them the slannesh icon since its like having a unit with permanent furious charge.

[Smurfalypse]

I started doing a standard list around my gaming store which consisted of 10 termies footslogging, 10 possessed footslogging, and the combo has literally been an anvil for every game ive played since. Ive gone 21-0 since i started using them footslogging. I would 100% use possessed anyday over zerkers, which i find to be a little bland and lacking in most areas anyhow.

 

Tell an ork player that feel no pain on possessed is crap, watch a nid-zilla army get the fear of the gods when you roll up rending, see how it works out for you when you get fleet of foot and they are rushing at your enemy and force themselves to be the priority target leaving your terms and other units to do what they please, str 6, init 5 on the charge is pretty good in any situation when you roll up furious assualt, even in 5th ed scout is going to be much better and a little more usefull (right now its the only one that is kinda worthless in general).

 

My point is that people who say possessed are worthless, havnt play tested them much, if any at all. They can really still be a scourge of the battlefield if you use them in a manner that suits them.

 

Just my two cents!

[Corrupted]

Possessed are just too expensive for what they do, and you can't give the champ a fist or power weapon. If you want a close combat rhino squad go with Zerkers. When I look a possessed all I can think is, for 4 more points I can have a terminator.

[Dam13n]

I started doing a standard list around my gaming store which consisted of 10 termies footslogging, 10 possessed footslogging, and the combo has literally been an anvil for every game ive played since. Ive gone 21-0 since i started using them footslogging. I would 100% use possessed anyday over zerkers, which i find to be a little bland and lacking in most areas anyhow.

 

Tell an ork player that feel no pain on possessed is crap, watch a nid-zilla army get the fear of the gods when you roll up rending, see how it works out for you when you get fleet of foot and they are rushing at your enemy and force themselves to be the priority target leaving your terms and other units to do what they please, str 6, init 5 on the charge is pretty good in any situation when you roll up furious assualt, even in 5th ed scout is going to be much better and a little more usefull (right now its the only one that is kinda worthless in general).

 

My point is that people who say possessed are worthless, havnt play tested them much, if any at all. They can really still be a scourge of the battlefield if you use them in a manner that suits them.

 

Just my two cents!

 

OK, what I would point out here is that ALL infantry will gain the run special rule enabling them to move D6 in the shooting phase at the expense of shooting and being able to assault. Fleet of Foot will allow a unit that has run to charge in the shooting phase (as of 5th edition, which is so close we might as well take as read) Rending becomes ignores armour saves on a to-wound roll of a 6, rather less impressive than it is now wouldn't you say?? I'll admit Furious Charge is and will remain a good one, but remember you are paying a lot of points for that unit of possessed, and with furious charge they have 1 point of strength over the 'zerkers but have 1 less weapon skill, which balances out (roughly) so you are paying an extra 5pts per model for a 5+ invulnerable save... seem like a lot, particularly when the difference between a marine and a thousand son is 8 points and they get a 4+ invulnerable save and inferno bolts for that... do the math. Scout will be more useful in 5th edition, but it may mean having to leave your expensive unit in reserve, hope for a quick turnout and hope to get the board edge you want, a lot of things left up to chance.

 

Now I never said possessed were worthless, I personally like the models (except for some of the heads) and used correctly I'm sure they CAN be effective, I'd rather have a unit that used correctly WILL be effective regardless of a single dice roll made at the start of the game. Now I personally wouldn't take them, it doesn't mean that no-one should. It just seems to me that with 'zerkers being almost as good for less points and more reliable game-to-game there is not the justification there for ME to take them.

 

As for the 10 Terminators, now I agree there, OW... especially as they come with a 2+ armour save, a 5+ invulnerable save and power weapons for 30pts a piece, they, to my mind are the Elites Choice to go for... Particularly with a good array of combi-weapons for shooty goodness and the odd Chainfist for Monster/Tank Whamming...

 

Just my two pence!

 

Laterz...

[Seahawk]

From a fluff standpoint, Possesssed will fit better in any army while Berzerkers will fall short. They are scattered yes, but will they be everywhere? Doubtful. At least any chaos marine can be and become possessed.

 

I personally have thoroughly enjoyed my unit of 10 Possessed. They run up the board, and if the temperature gets too hot they call down my own set of 10 terminators (sometimes 15). I can see the variety of rules-cons against them in comparison to Berzerkers, but I just like them better. As I always say, winning is more fun when it's done with a crappier unit.

[the jeske]

Tell an ork player that feel no pain on possessed is crap, watch a nid-zilla army get the fear of the gods when you roll up rending

and what happens if you roll scout with nids or orks or extra charge etc ? also nids dont fear rending from one squad out counter units are faster and your foot sloggers should never ever get in to charge with more then 3/4 man with the amount of fire a nids army has .

 

Also I have yet to see a wining chaos army [or at least one from top 8 that would run footsloging termis and possessed units that size].

[Seahawk]

Well, I have not yet lost a game since the codex was released in what, September? I know I've played at least 30 and 3 have ended in draws, while the rest were pretty much victorious slaughters. And I've been using massed terminators, possessed, and daemons. Just 'cause you haven't seen it, doesn't mean it isn't there.

[meeper]

rolling scouts in next edition vs nids or orks wont be too bad if you can get at those vulnerable biovores and ork tanks. its even worth it to tie up and probably kill a venom cannon wielding carniefex

[the jeske]

Well, I have not yet lost a game since the codex was released in what, September? I know I've played at least 30 and 3 have ended in draws, while the rest were pretty much victorious slaughters. And I've been using massed terminators, possessed, and daemons. Just 'cause you haven't seen it, doesn't mean it isn't there.

 

how many of this were tournament lvl games . regionals or GT lvl ? I have no idea how would it be possible to win with an army like this against nids or circus eldar. same with tau .necrons , it could be problems against a skilled . same with DE specially the witch cult list . I just dont see it . When we first got the dex , I did test a termi build for my AL [i was really desperate to find and play a fluffy army] and the max I could get is around a 505/50 win ration and there were a lot of auto loses for this list . I dont want to blaim your wins on your opponents , but I just dont see how can someone not lose once in almost a year , but am a tournament player and I have more then 30 each month .

[Lady_Canoness]

I'm surprised that no one has mentioned rolling up Power Weapons. I did it in my last two games with five of the buggers... and HOLY CRAP!!!!! They were MEAN!!!!!

 

Which is better however? Well, I like them both, but I often take Berzerkers because they are Troops, and I think that they are the most worthwhile troops choice in the book (troops unit that hits like an Elite? Yes Please! I'll take two!)

[Dam13n]

I'm surprised that no one has mentioned rolling up Power Weapons. I did it in my last two games with five of the buggers... and HOLY CRAP!!!!! They were MEAN!!!!!

 

Which is better however? Well, I like them both, but I often take Berzerkers because they are Troops, and I think that they are the most worthwhile troops choice in the book (troops unit that hits like an Elite? Yes Please! I'll take two!)

 

Actually I mentioned Power Weapons as the 1 possessed ability that causes them to truly outshine zerkers, and yes that does make them excessively mean. Of course you have to make the roll in front of your opponent, and as soon as he sees that 6 come up, he really should be thinking "that unit has GOT to die before it gets to me" I would point out that, although the Power Weapons are potentially devastating. Against Orks (6+ save) and Guard (5+ save) they become a little less effective (you would probably find furious charge (Orks) or Scout/Fleet (Guard) more useful)

 

You take 2, I take 5... World Eaters FTW... lol

 

Laterz...

[Seahawk]

Roughly two thirds have been tournament games. I've tried it against 'Nidzilla, Harleldar, Wraitheldar, Snipeldar, all Orks, all Necrons, mech Tau, suit Tau, marines of all kinds, 18 lascannon IG, 3 basilisk IG, other IG, SoB, and other chaos. I'm pretty sure that's the extent of it. Around here, nobody plays Dark Eldar (or if they do they don't bring them to the tournaments) so I'll admit I haven't played against that with my Word Bearers yet, but I can crush that too through large amounts of dakka :).

 

You obviously get to play far more than me; oh how I wish I could play more. But rotating between various armies and having other commitments through that amount of time leaves me only that many games so far. I've played all of the popular cookie cutter tournament lists and beaten them all with at least one of my armies, sometimes two or three.

 

I don't always use possessed though. However, I don't fill it in with berzerkers; quite a few games I've used neither unit, with my army consisting mainly of terminators, some csm, heavy support, and a bucket load of daemons.

 

Question: when you said elsewhere that the new chaos book has only one army to play, does that mean only one list that can consistently defeat all other cookie cutter tournament lists? Because that would make the most sense to this slightly confused person.

[Prot]

Both sides of the argument have good points. However, I have had tremendous trouble with winning with the 'new' chaos with any largely themed list period.

 

In other words, I think the answer is in the middle. A sprinkle of this, a sprinkle of that seems to be most potent. For instance, I tried pure World Eaters and it was extremely effective against some opponents but almost impossible to succeed with against others. I have become convinced the current Chaos is made for 'renegade' style (think old school undivided) player.

 

Probably the single most important factor is something that would bring the thread off topic: 5th edition. Chaos has tremendous (and fun) elite choices, but they can't hold objectives in 5th. So maybe the best thing about Berzerkers is the fact they are Troops. When I have used Possessed it's been cheap, and a sprinkling of them.

[Dam13n]

Both sides of the argument have good points. However, I have had tremendous trouble with winning with the 'new' chaos with any largely themed list period.

 

In other words, I think the answer is in the middle. A sprinkle of this, a sprinkle of that seems to be most potent. For instance, I tried pure World Eaters and it was extremely effective against some opponents but almost impossible to succeed with against others. I have become convinced the current Chaos is made for 'renegade' style (think old school undivided) player.

 

Probably the single most important factor is something that would bring the thread off topic: 5th edition. Chaos has tremendous (and fun) elite choices, but they can't hold objectives in 5th. So maybe the best thing about Berzerkers is the fact they are Troops. When I have used Possessed it's been cheap, and a sprinkling of them.

 

I agree, and did try to suggest as such while trying to remain on-topic earlier. I would also agree that a truly viable balanced themed force in this codex is next to impossible, but as you said, that wasn't the aim of this codex. Is is far more inclined towards small(ish) warbands of Renegades rather than the Traitor Legions. And being a Traitor Legion kind of guy myself, this has not sat too well...

 

Laterz...

[Night Stalker]

You mentioned the Rhino, with 5th edition adding the run rule, I would expect most

people to decide against taking a rhino for a dedicated assault unit (as they'll move 7-12"

a turn without it, not a huge decrease, and it means you should be in combat by turn

2 or 3 with at least 1 or 2 units, so the rhino becomes a little redundant except as a

way to block LOS.

 

Laterz...

 

i cannot disagree more - every possible unit will have a rhino or razor - even just for screening - without anything. 35 pts wall with tank shock ability and bolter

[Seahawk]

Word Bearers is a legion can can pull off highly themed and strongly competitive army lists (in my experience). Veterans + daemons + dark apostle (lord). I will repeat myself for the final time now in saying that you don't need to play beardy to win with this codex. Frankly I have a hard time trying to lose, even when I want to be nice. Against good opponents or bad, certain themed forces are still strong enough against both.

 

And I agree with Night Stalker's comment on rhinos. My possessed (when I use them) is the only unit without a rhino. Running is lame; I like driving, shooting, and forcing opponents to shoot the rhinos before my troops.

 

Although in my last game, we played the Evacuation scenario from the new rulebook, and when my rhino was wrecked, the Lord inside was the only one wounded to fail his armor save (of course), took D3 wounds (because of fighting in a vaccum, he rolled a 5=3 wounds) and promptly died. From what turned out to be a penetrating hellgun shot (due to vacuum as well, all attacks cause rending). How silly.

[meeper]

what about the performance gap with terminators as well as zerkers and possessed?

 

terminators

 

perks

 

ranged attack, can be upgraded to carry a one time only rapid fire plasma gun, melta, or flamer, or keep the tl bolter, power weapon, deep strike (even more useful with the new icon rules), high armor save, invulnerable save, heavy flamers and autocannons, cheap power fists! depending on icon taken can be even more effective in CC

 

downsides

 

very expensive transport (if any) high pts cost when you upgrade, even more expensive icons (but worth it in large squad numbers) cant capture points, no solid anti tank measures takes up an elites slot.

[Seahawk]

I dunno, meltaguns (even one shot, if there are 10 of them...) and chainfists seem to be pretty reliable tank killers, especially since the chainfist will never fail to damage all vehicles (AV 11 and 14 rear armor are exceptions) and has a very good chance of damaging walkers.

[Maladon]

@seahawk- not to highjack the thread, but how about a armylist of what you use for your word bearers?

 

The last few games I've played, I've used both berserkers and possessed(IoT) in my army lists, with my possessed getting feel no pain, in back to back games.

 

Possessed in my mind, expensive power armoured lesser daemons that start on the battlefield.

[Playa]

Hey,

 

I know zerkers are the go to unit for CC at face value, but what about a unit of possessed?

 

Sorry, I simply won't buy a pig in a poke. I can't form a strategy by *adding* known unknowns like Possessed to my lists.

I don't need a mathhammer spreadsheet to tell me that Possessed and Dread Units have crappy mechanics attached to them.

Thus, Dreads and Possessed seem at the top of the list of Units *not* to include since we have four Elite Units and only three slots.

 

Note: IMO, Elites are effective only in matches of 1500 points and above, anyway. YMMV.

 

Perks of Possessed

Invulnerable save of course, can take an icon like the slannesh

 

Unfair. Try comparing those Possessed to Noise Marines. Wait, let me -

10x Possessed w/ IoS = 280pts; 10x NM *all* with Blasters = 250pts.

When 5th ed causes humidity to grant a 4+, 5++ Saves will be deeply devalued.

 

I didn't see any fifth edition rumors that might enhance what little ability Possessed Units now have.

 

If you get lucky

 

Lucky? There's enough uncertainty and dice voodoo in 40k, thanks very much.

I'd rather a match be decided by skill first and luck second but again, that's me.

Will anyone know a Possessed Unit's capabilities when they put it in their list? No.

 

The same can't be said for Noise Marine or Berserker Units - they're studs in the Gavdex.

 

Downsides ... expensive ... random ... effectiveness decreases ... fewer attacks ... weapon skill ... no ranged attack ... takes up an elites slot

 

See, I did this same mental calculation back in October, so I don't understand continued debate.

Yes, the new Possessed models are nice, and I've got three Dread models myself.

But, both are competing in a tiny ecological niche with Chosen and Termis!

 

Chosen will *always* have Infiltrate/ BG/ BP/ CCW/ Nades, and I can *buy* them all Power Weapons for 7ppm over Popo cost if that's what I want.

There's no need to even consider an Elite CC Unit when we've got 2+ HQ and 3 Fast slots available for that purpose (Note: Spawn = epic fail).

On balance, Heavies and Elites ought to do the Ranged heavy lifting, since Troops slots can go either way.

 

That's my opinion, anyway. I could be wrong.

 

 

Playa

[Leethal]

Bezerkers got beefed up and Possessed...got nerfed. While they were still expensive in the last codex, they had their uses and weren't as random.

 

Bezerkers anyday, they are in the top tier Troop selection for close combat nastiness.