DIY Discussion: The Armoury

[Barret]

I recently (finally) got my grubby paws on a copy of Insignium Astartes, and a read through it brought me back to the old discussion on the actual number of Marines in a Codex Chapter. We all know that it's supposedly one thousand, but that that number is simply the number of "basic" Battle-Brothers in the Tactical, Assault and Devastator Squads. Command Squads, specialists, etc, etc, take the number beyond that to around fifteen hundred. Specifically, the entry on Predators and Land Raiders got me thinking about my favourite part of any Chapter: the Armoury, and how little we know of it. My hope with this thread is to start a discussion on this vital, yet oft neglected aspect of the Space Marines.

 

So, let's start with what we do know. I'll say right now that I have a terrible memory for sources, so I anyone knows of them, or if anything I say is contradictory to or unsupported by canon, please let me know. : )

 

 

Master of the Forge

 

The Chief Techmarine heads up the Chapter Armoury, but beyond that, we appear to know little. Obviously, he would be a hugely important member of the Chapter. He would likely be one of the oldest serving members of the Chapter, as long and far gone into the mysteries of the Machine-God as any Magos of the Adeptus Mechanicus. His specific role within a Chapter's hierarchy would, I would assume, vary with the Chapter in question. In the Dark Angels, for example, the Master of the Forge is the only Techmarine trusted enough to be initiated into the Deathwatch and the secrets of the Fallen. I think it's a fairly safe bet that the Salamanders would place great reverance and trust in the position. On the other hand, some Chapters might keep the role relatively segregated from the chain of command, and in particuarly superstitious or puritannical Chapters the relationship might be like that of the wider Imperium with the Adeptus Mechanicus: you give us what we need, and we'll leave you alone.

 

Assuming a relatively "normal" Chapter, I see it as being entirely plausible that the Master of the Forge might lead Marines on the field, much like the Chief Librarian and the Master of Sanctity. Happily, if the rumours come true, that is something that will be represented in the new Codex: Space Marines (hopefully with more fluff about the Master of the Forge).

 

As a side note, there is also the honorific title "Master of the Armoury" for one of the Captains, and it generally seems to mean that that particular Captain has access to all the biggest guns. Extrapolating from that, I would guessing that the Masters of the Forge and Armoury might be specifically detailed to work together. In Chapters especially suspicious or fearful of the Techmarines, the Master of the Armoury might be the Chapter command staff's main (or perhaps only) interface with the Armoury.

 

 

Techmarines

 

We have a relative surplus of information about Techmarines (at least when it comes to the Armoury), so I don't think I need to go into a huge amount of detail as to what their role in a Codex Chapter is. What I will say, and this is speculation/reasoning on my part, is that I think that the Techmarines we see in the Codicies and on the tabletop are likely a minority component of the Armoury. Much like the Apothecaries, only so many can be in the field at one time, and many more are needed behind the lines to keep the Chapter running. Perhaps the battlefield Techmarines are the youngest and freshest, those who are still most like the Battle-Brothers and full of fire; not too far gone down the de-humanizing path of the Omnissiah. Or maybe it's the other way around. Or a rotation. Or a mix, which might be the most likely. Again, this is probably something that varies by Chapter according to their beliefs and doctrines (and the internal politics of their Armoury).

 

That said, what must the other, possibly less battle-active Techmarines be like? Are they the oldest and most bionic-ized Marines? Those most steeped in the lore and mysteries of the Omnissiah? Those still in or recently returned from their training? Given the relative isolation from and the superstitions of the common Battle-Brother, do the brethren of the Chapter even know or see these Techmarines much? I see the physical armoury and the forges being, for most Chapters, a place as guarded and forbidden (if not more so) as the inner sanctums of the Librarians or Navigators.

 

 

Vehicle Crews

 

We know that the majority of a Chapter's vehicles (according to Insignium Astartes, all but bikes and Land Speeders) are the property of and crewed by members of the Armoury. Their armour is painted red, and they wear the glyph of the Omnissiah, so it seems a reasonable assumption to say that they are initiated to some degree into the Cult of the Machine God. But to what extent? My thought would be that, since fully trained and experienced Techmarines would always be at a premium (given the demands of their initiation and training), vehicle crews would probably consist largely of Techmarine-Initiates (my term), or Tech-Adepts (also my term). What I mean by that is that vehicle crews might be made up of those Marines who have shown an aptitude for working with the mechanical and are serving an apprenticeship of sorts, a test that both guages their likelihood of succeeding in the difficult rise to a Techmarine and supplies the Chapter with bodies to fulfill much-needed role. Perhaps some of the crews are those who showed enough for that task but not enough to be sent to Mars, in effect failing their test like a Scout who cannot take the Black Carapace.

 

What about their numbers? According to the Chapter org chart in Codex: Space Marines, there are 87 Rhinos/Razorbacks in the pool that need to be crewed. That's 174 crewmen, and that's just the bare minimum. Insignium Astartes says that a typical Chapter might have hundreds of Predators and Land Raiders, but "more commonly" about twenty to thirty of each (including variants). Sadly, it is mute on the subject of Vindicators, but I would assume equal or lesser numbers of the seige tanks. So, that's an additional....let's say eighty vehicles in a typical Codex Chapter. Even though it would be exceedingly rare for the entire force to be used at once, that's still at least another hundred crewmen, I would venture. So we're now approaching three hundred Marines for vehicle crews. That's the size of three regular Companies! Including all the full Techmarines (whose numbers I can't guess at, but would likely be at least twenty) and the Armoury is far and away the single largest formation inside a Chapter! It warms the cockles of my technophiliac automated heart-replacement.

 

 

Non-Marine Members of the Armoury

 

Along with their obvious duties of handling the basic weapons and tools of war for a Chapter, the Armoury would also be responsible for the maintenance of the Chapter fleet and facilities (like the Fortress-Monastery, etc). According to the fluff a large portion of this is handled by legions of servitors, but I would think that there would also be a large number of tasks and roles too complex or delicate for servitors, and yet too menial for a Techmarine or even Tech-Adept to handle. That would suggest the existence of caste or group of Chapter serfs who exist solely within the purview of the Armoury, much like the lower ranks of the Adeptus Mechanicus. Perhaps, in some Chapters, the Armoury even has their own small equivalent to the Skitarii: a force of serfs and/or servitors (and likely something in between) trained, augmented and equipped to aid the Techmarines on the battlefield when or if a Marine escort is unavailable or inefficient.

 

 

That's largely what I've got off the top of my head, and with the Codex and Insignium Astartes at hand. I've doubtless missed things that are in other sources, and a lot of the above is my own conjecture and supposition, which I hope will provide food for thought and (even better) for discussion.

[Brother Evar]

That sounds about right though for my DIY my normal marines now what amounts to basic mechanics, so can fix things if they suffer minor damage. eg- broken treads minor engine ware/ damage, change the brake fluid ect. I just thought it stupid that a marine biker is incapable of changing out a tire or damaged armour plates on his bike, let alone fill it with fuel. :P I will put it this way- a marine at the moment sounds like he has about as much mechanical skill ability as my mum- re-0% ;)

[Heru]

In the Dark Angels, for example, the Master of the Forge is the only Techmarine trusted enough to be initiated into the Deathwatch and the secrets of the Fallen.

You mean Deathwing, but that's generally incorrect as-well. He's a member of the Inner Circle (which doesn't necessarily mean he's a member of the Deathwing 1st Company).

 

 

What you could do with look at is the 3rd Edition Codex: Space Marines, near the back they have the complete (well perhaps almost complete) listing for the Ultramarine Chapter which includes a break down of how many of certain ranks of Techmarine are in the armoury etc.

[kil78]

actually no tech-marines are ever initiated in to the inner circle, as the have deviaded loyalties between the chapter and the machine cult

[Darrell]

I think it's possible that the Master of the Forge could lead on the battlefield, but I'd imagine that most of his leadership would be in regards to how certain vehicles are used in a campaign. Much like a Chapter Master might take to war when a large portion of the Chapter is committed, the Master of the Forge may act similarly when many vehicles are summoned from the Armoury. Perhaps during a siege when many Vindicators and Whirlwinds are to be used, or if the First Company takes to war on the ground accompanied by several Land Raiders. I'd imagine the Chapter machines are his primary concern, so his battlefield leadership would probably be appointed with that in mind. Perhaps something like coordinating the efforts of the 9th Reserves and several squads of artillery vehicles.

 

The Techmarines we see on the field are undoubtedly a minority from the Armoury. I presume that they would function similarly to the Librarium in that Techmarines would be assigned to Companies on a temporary basis. They would answer primarily to the Master of the Forge, but would more than likely also follow the orders of the Company Captain when assigned. Some may stay isolated within the forge, others may allow the Chapter to mingle freely (within reason, since you wouldn't want people bugging the techmarines all day when they need to work) as needed. I doubt the Codex is specific on the type of relationship the Forge should have with the rest of the Chapter, aside from the advice that both should work together and do their best to maintain brotherhood.

 

Personally, I had always thought that vehicles were mainly crewed by serfs. Using Astartes for glorified chauffeurs seems like a waste of a brother to me. I suppose you could make an argument that their quick reflexes and protective armor allows them to handle the vehicle more effectively in battle conditions, but I'm still not exactly sold on the idea. If your numbers are true, though, the Armoury probably represents a huge chunk of the Chapter's total resources. This is probably for the best, though, since there is a lot of gear to be created and maintained through the Forges. Weapons, armor, vehicles, Dreadnoughts, ammunition, mundane equipment needs...all that gear has to be maintained by quite a few. There probably are a lot of specialized serfs who deal with this area specifically, as I'm sure other sections of the Chapter have specialized serfs for their needs.

 

It offers a lot of potential ideas for someone who wants to have a Chapter similar to the Salamanders or Iron Hands, with a certain preference towards technology or a fascination for the Machine.

[Heru]

actually no tech-marines are ever initiated in to the inner circle, as the have deviaded loyalties between the chapter and the machine cult

Your right he's not a member of the Inner Circle, the MotF is only "is trusted enough to be party to some of the secrets of the Inner Circle". Seeing as "it is his duty to maintain the machines in the dungeons and secret places of the Rock."

[Severus6]

Personally, I had always thought that vehicles were mainly crewed by serfs. Using Astartes for glorified chauffeurs seems like a waste of a brother to me.

Quote from Darrell

 

Agreed, I believe that this would be an enormous waste of manpower and resources.

 

Severus6

[Barret]

Yeah, Heru knows what I'm referring to. I believe in Codex Dark Angels it explicitly says that the Master of the Forge is, if not a full-blown member of the Inner Circle, at least privy to most of their secrets.

 

Also, thanks for the pointer to the 3rd Ed Marine 'dex. I had totally forgotten about that one.

 

That said, the numbers they give seem waaaay too low to me. Maybe it only refers to those members of the Armoury staff who take the field or are engaged in active service alongside the Chapter, and not those who hang about the Fortress-Monastery?

 

 

As for Marines driving Rhinos and tanks, that's the way it is according to the canon fluff at the moment. While I'm inclined to agree that having three hundred or more Space Marines who do nothing but drive their Brothers around seems wasteful, I'm not sure how to reconcile that. To me, it suggests that the full ramifications weren't thought through when that was written. Do you guys think there's an alternate explanation that's feasible?

[A_POINTED_STICK]

They're definitely marines though, and they're definitely separate from the company they serve with and therefore are from the forge. Only rhinos and razorbacks are attached permanently to companies anyway. And whether or not that means the drivers are as well is up in the air.

 

There are definitely 300+ members involved. They also provide fire support, rhinos have storm bolters for a reason. On top of that I'm convinced that if possible the vehicle fights alongside the troops. Ie transports them around as an APC then drops them off and provides IFV support. Razorbacks definitely do.

[Keyoz Devastrius]

As a side note, there is also the honorific title "Master of the Armoury" for one of the Captains, and it generally seems to mean that that particular Captain has access to all the biggest guns.

A small nitpick -the honorific title is not the master of the armoury – the captain of the Third Company is the Master of the Arsenal.

 

According to the fluff a large portion of this is handled by legions of servitors, but I would think that there would also be a large number of tasks and roles too complex or delicate for servitors, and yet too menial for a Techmarine or even Tech-Adept to handle. That would suggest the existence of caste or group of Chapter serfs who exist solely within the purview of the Armoury, much like the lower ranks of the Adeptus Mechanicus.

 

There is a special caste - those are the duties of chapters artificers. I think there might also by a small contingent of human tech-adepts attached to the chapters armoury by the AM.

 

I have to say that I dont agree with you when it comes to numbers. I don't thing there are as many as 300 marines being members of the armoury and nothing else. I think one hundred is more likely, because battle-brothers can be a part of a company and work in the armoury in the same time.

 

SPACE MARINE DAILY RITUALS article form GW uk site:

Typically brethren with special skills are permitted to work in the forges or the Apothecarion between the evening meal and rest period at the discretion of the Company Captain. There they are taught by the Techmarines or Apothecaries in their arcane crafts. Exceptional artisans and chirurgeons will be elevated to apprentice Techmarines or Apothecaries after a suitable period spent in vigil within the Solitorium.

 

Besides that IA article about techmarines or land riders (I dont remember which one) mentions Ultramarines techmarine specializing in demolishion , driving a land rider, so it might be possible that fully grown techmarines double as drivers when not assigned to other battlefield duties. Venerable and revered machines such as the land riders could be crewed only by the senior techmarines to ensure their maximal efficiency and survivability.

 

Personally, I had always thought that vehicles were mainly crewed by serfs. Using Astartes for glorified chauffeurs seems like a waste of a brother to me.

Quote from Darrell

 

Agreed, I believe that this would be an enormous waste of manpower and resources.

 

Severus6

Well serfs don't have BS 4 :lol:

 

Edit- spelling ^_^

[Espada Azul]

I was under the impression (do take note that this might just be background confusion creeping in after a reading binge) that the drivers of a Chapter's vehicles were actually brothers from the Reserve companies. In less numerous Chapters, such as those devastated by battlefield losses or some other catasthrophe (the Flesh Tearers and the Crimson Fists hop to mind), full line brothers will probably wear a different 'hat' depending on the mission objective (taking up the Devastator's weapons one day, driving the Company's rhinos the next).

[Barret]

A small nitpick -the honorific title is not the master of the armoury – the captain of the Third Company is the Master of the Arsenal.

 

Thank you. That is indeed what I meant. ^_^

 

There is a special caste - those are the duties of chapters artificers. I think there might also by a small contingent of human tech-adepts attached to the chapters armoury by the AM.

 

That sounds like what I suspected. Do you have a source for that?

 

 

I have to say that I dont agree with you when it comes to numbers. I don't thing there are as many as 300 marines being members of the armoury and nothing else. I think one hundred is more likely, because battle-brothers can be a part of a company and work in the armoury in the same time.

 

Besides that IA article about techmarines or land riders (I dont remember which one) mentions Ultramarines techmarine specializing in demolishion , driving a land rider, so it might be possible that fully grown techmarines double as drivers when not assigned to other battlefield duties. Venerable and revered machines such as the land riders could be crewed only by the senior techmarines to ensure their maximal efficiency and survivability.

 

The three hundred number comes not from those who work in the Armoury itself, but those who operate the Chapter's vehicles. Even with Techmarines taking on the task of helping crew the larger, more prestigious vehicles, that still leaves dozens, possibly hundreds of Rhinos, Razorbacks, Vindicators and Predators in need of two crewmen each.

 

 

I was under the impression (do take note that this might just be background confusion creeping in after a reading binge) that the drivers of a Chapter's vehicles were actually brothers from the Reserve companies. In less numerous Chapters, such as those devastated by battlefield losses or some other catasthrophe (the Flesh Tearers and the Crimson Fists hop to mind), full line brothers will probably wear a different 'hat' depending on the mission objective (taking up the Devastator's weapons one day, driving the Company's rhinos the next).

 

Do you have a source for that impression? My objection to that would be that instead of a dedicated motor pool "company", a Chapter is now having its highly trained Devastator and/or Assault Company driving the rest around. What happens on those occasions when the entire Chapter goes to war? That "Armour Company" seems, to me, to be the only feasible way of crewing all a Chapter's vehicles without stripping out two or three of the Reserve Companies.

[Damael]

I'm inclined to agree with the idea that brothers from the reserve companies may be used to crew some kinds of vehicles in a chapter that finds itself significantly below full strength. In any case however, I'd imagine each company would have additional marines attached for the sole purpose of crewing the transports, they just aren't included in the 100 marine figure given as the number of marines in a company. The armoury meanwhile would maintain a healthy number of it's own marines specifically trained to drive the battle tanks as opposed to transports.

[Keyoz Devastrius]

That sounds like what I suspected. Do you have a source for that?

While I don't have any source at hand in most sources that I’ve read the artificers are described as being responsible for building and embellishing the power armour and bolters. It could be that maintenance of the armours and weapons are mostly artificers responsibilities while the techmarines are mostly responsible for the chapters war machines.

The three hundred number comes not from those who work in the Armoury itself, but those who operate the Chapter's vehicles. Even with Techmarines taking on the task of helping crew the larger, more prestigious vehicles, that still leaves dozens, possibly hundreds of Rhinos, Razorbacks, Vindicators and Predators in need of two crewmen each.

If marines from battle and reserve companies can work in the armoury why cant they drive the tanks? I think that every company could be responsible for providing its own crews for some of the vehicles.

 

I think that the one hundred is a maximal number for the marines in the armoury mostly because of the consequences of having 300 marines + possibly the same if not higher number of serfs/skitarii under chief techmarines orders. None of the captains has such power in his hands and they all are fully devoted to the chapter, while master of the forge has his loyalties divided between Mechanicus and his chapter. I simply don't think he would be trusted with such a power and making the Armoury about 100 marines brings him in power level to a company captain.

 

The divided loyalties have given me the idea why there can be more than 1000 marines in a codex chapter- the techmarines being part of the Armoury could be treated as AM and so a chapter could follow the codex to a letter -1000 marines + some AM guys in the Armoury.

[Keyoz Devastrius]

Ok. So I’m a thredomancer and a doubleposter – but I have a good reason :)

 

Yesterday I was reading the Imperial Armour vol.2 and I’ve found this:

 

The crews for armoured vehicles are full Space Marines, and are often referred to as Custodians of a vehicle. Most crews are drawn from the Tactical squads of the Chapters Sixth and Seventh Companies. All Space Marines have some training in the use of armoured vehicles . Driving Rhinos and armoured formation tactics are part of a recruits basic training.Later, Space Marines specialise in armoured operations and tactics, being trained in the operation of larger vehicles and basic maintenance. All Space marines vehicles are fitted with spinal interfaces which a Custodian plugs into their powered armour and Black Carapace allowing a Space Marine to become part of his vehicle, giving him an intuitive ‘feel’ for vehicles controls and systems.

[Hasoroth]

On Vehicle Crews, in the Ragnar Novels (First Omnibus), Ragnar mentions to Sven that upon achieving Grey Hunter status (Tactical Marine) he might consider applying for Pilot Training.

 

Just throwing that in the mix, the Space Wolves aren't the most codex Chapter, but applying for training seems logical enough, and perhaps thats where applicant pools are drawn from, with those showing mechanical promise being guided on.

 

Also in the Ragnar books, there are Iron Priest Initiates who tend to more menial tasks, and the Impression given by the books is that there are a lot of Iron Priests, in comparison to say, Wolf Priests or Rune Priests.

[GhostLegion]

You know, I also have a problem with the Vehicle Crews section the OP lays out. Throughout the BL novels, codeci, and other books, I was not under the impression vehicle crew were inducted in any way into the mechanicum...much less full blown tech marines. For rhinos and razorbacks, I had always seen the crew as members of the squad to which the vehicle is asigned. Other vehicles I had not thought so much on, but it makes a little sense that they would be pulled from reserve companies, or more likely be crewed by qualified squad members from the companies to which the vehicles were asigned.

 

Maybe I have not looked too heavilly at the insignium astartes...but this is my impression from the codex.

 

 

....not that I much like codex chapters....

[Barret]

I don't much like the layout for vehicle crews that I gave, either. :nuke: However, it's the only thing that seemed to make sense to me. Even if Rhino drivers were drawn from the 6th and 7th, that directly conflicts with the fluff and examples for those Companies being fielded on their own (for example, the Ultramarines regularly field the entire 6th Company on bikes, or possibly Land Speeders, I don't remember which). When that happens, does nobody get to use their Rhinos? And even so, it would take almost the whole of both Reserve Companies to drive enough Rhinos for the whole Chapter.

 

 

Well, not quite. The four Battle Companies would require seventy-two drivers. The Devastator Company would require another twenty-two. And that's assuming that none of the Assault Marines, Scouts or Veterans require Rhinos or Razorbacks. Furthermore, that's only the APCs. What about Vindicators, Land Raiders, Predators and Whirlwinds? Insignium Astartes suggests that Chapters can have dozens or more of these fighting vehicles.

 

 

I don't really like the notion that squads drive their own transports (as depicted in Iron Snakes), because if that's so then how are my Rhinos driving around the battlefield after their squads have debarked?

 

 

 

This was my intention with this thread, to try and start a discussion that would reach a conclusion between the rational explanation (which is too much) and the fluff explanation (which is too little).

[GhostLegion]

hmm...

 

Pg 44 of the Insignium states all assault marines, scouts and the 6th company are Bike Squadron trained.

 

Quoting the Insignium (pg 45):

Assault Marines and the entire 7th reserve company are trained to fight as Land Speeder squadrons

 

Pg 47 states each company has a vehicle pool of Rhinos and Razorbacks...though no statement is made to crew. This is where I would suggest most likely Company members, not armory tech marines, are crew for these vehicles.

 

From the text on pp 48-49, I would surmise these are crewed by possible tech marines, though there are not likely enough tech marines to field all vehicles at once. You might also surmise that the Land Raider may be crewed by members of the veteran company. I would assume the other heavy vehicles fall into this category as well.

 

With the fact that chapters tithe members to the mechanicum to become tech marines, and then do not wholely trust them again (regarding them with awe and whotnot), I would assume there are not too many tech marines in a given chapter. My base assumption would be one or two per company, plus a Master of the Forge and maybe an aide or two. Add maybe one aspirant/apprentice per trained tech marine for good measure.

 

In your figures, you forgot the large number of serfs, slaves, and servitors a chapter maintains to tend its needs.

 

...all this is assumed for a CODEX chapter organization of course...and I admit, I may be wrong/overly conservative in my judgement here...