Golden Defenders

[Telveryon]

I can't promise that it'll be done today, but I'm working on doing exactly what I recommended. As a native speaker of the language and, (I conceitedly like to think) a decent writer, I think I can help you polish some of the linguistic oddities.

 

That is, of course, if you want the help...

Your help would be most appreciated, but I'd rather you didn't waste your time on my behalf. If you point out those passages that irk the most and I'll try to re-write them, and if I fail to make them better, as I will likely do, then you could waste your time on my account.

 

Don't discredit yourself, if you read as much Romanian as I do English I'm pretty sure you'd be able to out-write me in my own native language.

 

Ha!

 

I don't read or speak a single word of Romanian, which was part of my point. You're already better than I am by default, since you can at least make yourself understood in English.

I've studied English since the 6th grade, in high school I took an intensive English course and recently I've only read novels in English. It would have quite a big waste of time if I couldn't make myself understood. But if you studied Romanian as much I did English you'd easily out-write me, I suck at writing, I know that for a fact. I think the Golden Defender IA is the best piece of writing I ever did.

[Severus6]

I went back and read over this one more time. Its very good but I do have a few questions:

 

1. Having this problem with the AM, how exactly does the Chapter maintain its equipment? That was never really clear to me; granted other Chapters helped initially but eventually the AM may come to punish them as well. Guilt by association is nothing new in the 40K universe.

 

2. Based on the fact this Chapter is basically without faith how does it work with other Chapters that are overly zealous or do they?

 

Overall, very well done. I enjoyed the read.

 

Severus6

[Telveryon]

I went back and read over this one more time. Its very good but I do have a few questions:

 

1. Having this problem with the AM, how exactly does the Chapter maintain its equipment? That was never really clear to me; granted other Chapters helped initially but eventually the AM may come to punish them as well. Guilt by association is nothing new in the 40K universe.

They build their own equipment for the most part, that's why they have more tech-marines then other chapters and their homeworld's own manufactoriums also lend a hand. What they can't build themselves they get through rogue traders. As for why the other chapters weren't persecuted by the mechanics... Well, it's because I might have used the wrong word to describe the first altercation between the GD and Mechanicus, I should have used "lesson in humility". In essence the Mechanicus tried to teach the GD that without the Omnissiah they'd be nothing, once the GD failed to learn that lesson the Mechanicus didn't think much about it since the only thing they lost was another mouth to feed. By the time the second altercation between the GD and Mechanicus the chapters that helped would have faded from the memory (well, barring that of the Defenders, but then again they'd never tell)

 

2. Based on the fact this Chapter is basically without faith how does it work with other Chapters that are overly zealous or do they?

The GD keep their views on faith to themselves mostly, they even cynically allowed the Ecclesiarchy to remain on their homeworld. Ergo, the GD would be fine with an overly zealous chapter as long as they keep shooting the bad guys, after all the GD's prime objective is Humanity's survival and they don't really care how that's achieved. An overzealous chapter might see the GD as aloof or as having some strange priorities but I doubt they'd resent them so much as not to fight alongside them. Moreover, it could be argues that the GD are overzealous in their own faithless way as they hate Chaos with a passion and they tend to go to great leangths to purge its taint.

 

Overall, very well done. I enjoyed the read.

 

Severus6

Very many thanks, I'm very glad you enjoyed the read.

[Severus6]

I should have used "lesson in humility". In essence the Mechanicus tried to teach the GD that without the Omnissiah they'd be nothing, once the GD failed to learn that lesson the Mechanicus didn't think much about it since the only thing they lost was another mouth to feed.

 

OK, that makes much more sense but the only issue I see with that is the AM rarely forget anything. There are whole planets dedicated to the safe storage and transmission of data for the AM. A Chapter that gave them that much of a snub would definately not be forgotton or forgiven very soon,...nor the Chapters that helped them. That is my only real "nit-picky" issue I have with the IA. Other than that, again, very well done.

 

Severus6

[Telveryon]

It can be argued that the AM never knew who helped in the GD since it took some time (around a decade I'd say) for the marines to swallow their pride and admit they can't do it alone and by then the AM had left. It can also be argued that the GD used their own ships or rogue traders to bring the volunteer tech-marines as well as use their own thunderhawks to ferry them on Mercurial which would severely limit the tech-marines' exposure to any AM agents still left.

[Brother Keir]

I enjoyed reading your IA. I was even more impressed when I learned English is your second language. I am a little wary of the bad blood with the AdMech as they do so love their monopoly on technology and would probably send assassins to kill the Techmarines that would train their own replacements. I do not think that the Imperium at large however would have a problem with a Protestant group of Techmarines and even the Iron Hands "might" exert political pressure on the AdMech to ensure the autonomy of a Space Marine Chapter. Lots of maybes from me. Sorry. But thank you for a good read! It fits your Chapter story and I would keep it.

 

3rd Edition Space Marine Codex p. 45. Apothecary Malus' Testimony: There is a reference to the "Secondary Heart" as the Heart of Guilliman within the Silver Skulls. This isn't very conclusive, but unless other non-Ultra Chapters call it the same, it does point to the Ultramarine gene-seed. For what it is worth.

[Telveryon]

I am a little wary of the bad blood with the AdMech as they do so love their monopoly on technology and would probably send assassins to kill the Techmarines that would train their own replacements. I do not think that the Imperium at large however would have a problem with a Protestant group of Techmarines and even the Iron Hands "might" exert political pressure on the AdMech to ensure the autonomy of a Space Marine Chapter. Lots of maybes from me. Sorry.

That's why the chapter has close relations with a nearby Inquisitorial world, there are quite a few inquisitors there the view the Golden Defenders as a valuable resource. They stop such assassins as you mentioned in their tracks and in return the chapter makes it a priority to help said inquisitors.

 

But thank you for a good read! It fits your Chapter story and I would keep it.

I most definitely will, it might not be the most original idea in the chapter, Octavulg beat me to it, but it's a nice little twist. Also, my heart swells with joy when people enjoy this little piece of writing I managed, with some serious help, to bodge together. Unfortunately, my ego seems to be keeping up, I'd be carefull with such praise as you can never know when a monster might creep up.

[Octavulg]

Eh, I do it for a different reason. And, IIRC, take it in a different direction. So all is well.

 

You are referring to the Stone Hearts, yes?

[Telveryon]

Eh, I do it for a different reason. And, IIRC, take it in a different direction. So all is well.

 

You are referring to the Stone Hearts, yes?

But you are still did it first, and I also must admit that your Stone Hearts where at the core of the "Defenders hate that AM" bit. Cogratulations sir, you're a source of inspiration!

 

Now, that I think about it, I might have also taken their uncompromising attitude from the Castigators. Which make the faithlessness as the only true original concept of the Golden Defenders. Just goes to show how original I am.

[Grand Master Tyrak]

That's why the chapter has close relations with a nearby Inquisitorial world, there are quite a few inquisitors there the view the Golden Defenders as a valuable resource.

 

The Amalathian faction, I suppose? They're the ones who like maintaining the status quo and making sure the other Imperial organisations don't squabble too much (Strength Through Unity! -_- ).

[Telveryon]

The Amalathian faction, I suppose? They're the ones who like maintaining the status quo and making sure the other Imperial organisations don't squabble too much (Strength Through Unity! -_- ).

Quire possibly, though I seed the Golden Defenders as not being very picky, they'll honor any request that doesn't come from a radical or some faith nuts. And in the case of the faith nuts, they'd go somewhere else to fight so that dereliction of duty charges cannot be brought up against them.

 

But now that I think of it, Thorians would be another faction that the Defenders could work well with, after all, in the eyes of a space marine there are few (if any) better ways to ensure humanity's survival then having the big E walking about.

[Grand Master Tyrak]

they'll honor any request that doesn't come from a radical or some faith nuts.

 

That sums up . . . just about everybody.

 

But now that I think of it, Thorians would be another faction that the Defenders could work well with, after all, in the eyes of a space marine there are few (if any) better ways to ensure humanity's survival then having the big E walking about.

 

Gah, Thorians. Mind you, all Space Marines want the Big E up and about, they just don't believe the Emperor-on-the-throne is dead, like the Thorians. That's why Russ apparently went off to find the Tree of Life, to heal the Emperor. Committing yourself to the Thorians is adopting a very different take on getting the Emperor up and about.

[Telveryon]

That sums up . . . just about everybody.

True, but they're a giving bunch those Golden Defenders.:lol:

 

Gah, Thorians. Mind you, all Space Marines want the Big E up and about, they just don't believe the Emperor-on-the-throne is dead, like the Thorians. That's why Russ apparently went off to find the Tree of Life, to heal the Emperor. Committing yourself to the Thorians is adopting a very different take on getting the Emperor up and about.

The Golden Defenders don't believe much of anything, ergo they do whatever is requires, if if there's something to the Thorian's claims why not look into it a bit. But still I'd rather not have the chapter aligned with a certain faction.

[Telveryon]

*Brushes the dust off this old thread*

 

This morning I just received a PM from Ocravulg (sorry Apothete, he beat you to it) with most of the paragraphs re-worded and re-written in a far more well flowing way! For which I can't thank him enough!

 

The only parts the have not been edited by Octavulg are the last three paragraphs in the Disagreements with the Mechanicus and Organization sections. So, any comments on those parts? Is it Librarium worthy?

[Sigismund Himself]

I'll have a read through by the end of tonight and edit any feedback into this post.

 

++Edit++ Read through it thoroughly but right now I'm too tired to be coherent, let alone articulate in any criticisms :lol: I'll come back tomorrow, apologies.

[Apothete]

This morning I just received a PM from Ocravulg (sorry Apothete, he beat you to it) with most of the paragraphs re-worded and re-written in a far more well flowing way! For which I can't thank him enough!

 

No harm done.

 

I've been struggling to muster the energy to even complete my own projects the last few days, so I'm hardly going to begrudge Octavulg the completion of the rewrite. That does mean that I'm going to have to give it a good going over once again sometime this week, instead of letting others comb through my version of your work.

 

Disagreements with the Mechanicus [/b] and Organization sections. So, any comments on those parts? Is it Librarium worthy?

 

I'll have to read it later, but rest assured that I will.

[#13]

Telveryon,

 

Maybe my reply is a bit late, but I really enjoyed the read of your DIY. I really like the angle you took with their faithlessness, they've turned out almost the way the emperor meant for his warriors/empire to be.

I had thought that my DIY was almost finished but if I look at the detail you have in your article I think I may have a bit of work a head of me. :P

[Telveryon]

Telveryon,

 

Maybe my reply is a bit late, but I really enjoyed the read of your DIY.

That's Octavulg's fault, he edited it so that you read well, not mediocre like previous version.

 

I really like the angle you took with their faithlessness, they've turned out almost the way the emperor meant for his warriors/empire to be.

That was always the plan, the hard part was to come with a good reason for them being the way they are without resorting to the ol' "Lost in the Warp since the Horus Heresy".

 

I had thought that my DIY was almost finished but if I look at the detail you have in your article I think I may have a bit of work a head of me. :P

It's not as detailed as it could be, read Apothete's Exonerators or Black Friars, that's detail! I deliberately glossed over a few things because if I didn't I would have had to write blocks of text. If you would tolerate a bit of advice, if you want a bit more detail in your chapter always ask yourself to questions about everything unique about your chapter, "Why is that the way it is?" secondly "What are the consequences?" and the IA should write itself, sure, it'll take some time, but it will in the end.

[Sigismund Himself]

Your image of the Chapter Symbol had the image becoming a bit pixelated around the edges and the black of the shoulder pad didn't match the black around the symbol. I redid it, on a slightly smaller scale. Feel free to use it.

"My men may have stopped breathing yesterday, but they were dead the day the Emperor of Man gave that cursed Chapter birth.!" - Colonel Marron, 243rd Illorian Rifle Regiment

There's a full stop and an exclamation mark both there. Apart from that, it seems far too blameful of the Emperor for a good Imperial citizen to say something like that and I'm not sure on the use of birth with regards to a chapter. My suggestion would be to change it something along the lines of "My men may have stopped breathing yesterday, but they were dead the day that cursed Chapter was created!"

The Chapter has never shirked their duty, and have sworn countless fearsome vows to defend humanity regardless of the cost.

Something about the use of countless and fearsome together is bugging me. It might just be because they're both very strong adjectives and using them together makes it a bit over the top.

Perhaps the biggest issue for me here is why the marines lose their faith. For the examples you provide, it really seems to me that the Ecclesiarchy is to blame. No Space Marine really likes the Ecclesiarchy and I would rather see the chapter's thoughts turning sourer towards them, rather than against the actual belief itself. Perhaps the triggers for this belief need to be examined a bit and see if they can be changed, so that they see a problem with normal people having belief rather than possibly blaming it on the church. It's difficult but I think it can be done.

The problem with the Mechanicus: To me, it seems a bit contrived. I would honestly believe that the Chapter Master would simply say to any going to Mars "Go along with the Machine-God worship bit and get all the knowledge. Doesn't matter what you think, we need that knowledge." The marines seriously risk a slow death and no possibility of getting important pieces of equipment like ships. I would expect them to act more pragmatically, if only so that they could continue their defense of mankind. I would reconsider or explain your reasoning behind their moves a bit more in the IA.

Homeworld: I'm really not sure how at all it is suitable for an Astartes homeworld. There doesn't seem to be anything mentioned that would make suitable recruits. And purging the Orks would take a great deal of effort and time. Perhaps there are still periodic revivals of feral orks?

Technology: Honestly, I'd really like to see the chapter actually go deeper into superstition and ritual. I think that any chapter that helped the Defenders could be sanctioned by the Mechanicus and it would be better to see them struggle by themselves.

Geneseed: It seems a little MISS when your guys improve their method. You mention that they have a more pragmatic approach to technology here. Perhaps you need to make this more apparent with the rest of the article, as this was the first time I really got this. As I said above, I think they'd actually go the other way in regards to technological understanding.

"They have forsaken the greatness of the Omnissiah!? Then let us see how they fare when he forsakes them." - Magos Verrilius Ardot

Perhaps this quote sounds just a little too human for an adept of the Mechanicus, probably more the second sentence.

There's a few more picky things (spelling errors, some sentences still a bit odd) but for the time being, I think that the bigger ideas need more concentration right now.

[Telveryon]

Your image of the Chapter Symbol had the image becoming a bit pixelated around the edges and the black of the shoulder pad didn't match the black around the symbol. I redid it, on a slightly smaller scale. Feel free to use it.

What can I say but, thanks! I'm not really good at picture editing...

 

"My men may have stopped breathing yesterday, but they were dead the day the Emperor of Man gave that cursed Chapter birth.!" - Colonel Marron, 243rd Illorian Rifle Regiment

There's a full stop and an exclamation mark both there. Apart from that, it seems far too blameful of the Emperor for a good Imperial citizen to say something like that and I'm not sure on the use of birth with regards to a chapter. My suggestion would be to change it something along the lines of "My men may have stopped breathing yesterday, but they were dead the day that cursed Chapter was created!"

Modified a bit, though not exactly as you suggested...

 

The Chapter has never shirked their duty, and have sworn countless fearsome vows to defend humanity regardless of the cost.

Something about the use of countless and fearsome together is bugging me. It might just be because they're both very strong adjectives and using them together makes it a bit over the top.

I've removed countless.

 

Perhaps the biggest issue for me here is why the marines lose their faith. For the examples you provide, it really seems to me that the Ecclesiarchy is to blame. No Space Marine really likes the Ecclesiarchy and I would rather see the chapter's thoughts turning sourer towards them, rather than against the actual belief itself. Perhaps the triggers for this belief need to be examined a bit and see if they can be changed, so that they see a problem with normal people having belief rather than possibly blaming it on the church. It's difficult but I think it can be done.

This is indeed one of the parts a glossed a bit, I'm planning to add a a short description where a daemon price subverts the faith of a planet to his own ends, would that be a reasonable cause?

 

The problem with the Mechanicus: To me, it seems a bit contrived. I would honestly believe that the Chapter Master would simply say to any going to Mars "Go along with the Machine-God worship bit and get all the knowledge. Doesn't matter what you think, we need that knowledge." The marines seriously risk a slow death and no possibility of getting important pieces of equipment like ships. I would expect them to act more pragmatically, if only so that they could continue their defense of mankind. I would reconsider or explain your reasoning behind their moves a bit more in the IA.

The idea was that the Golden Defenders see faith as a sort of manipulation, as proud space marines they don't want to be under the sway of the Mechanicus. But, yes, maybe that could use a bit more emphasizing....

 

Homeworld: I'm really not sure how at all it is suitable for an Astartes homeworld. There doesn't seem to be anything mentioned that would make suitable recruits. And purging the Orks would take a great deal of effort and time. Perhaps there are still periodic revivals of feral orks?

That's why there is a separate recruitment section, while the world isn't particularly harsh, it is quite well populated, in a population of 5 billion you're bound to find a handful of good recruits. They apply a brute force method of selection, get as many possible recruits as you can the filter them. The possibility of leaving the the trials at any point would favor those recruits that want to succeed through sheer force of will as well as physical prowess.

 

 

Technology: Honestly, I'd really like to see the chapter actually go deeper into superstition and ritual. I think that any chapter that helped the Defenders could be sanctioned by the Mechanicus and it would be better to see them struggle by themselves.

The underling theme of the chapter chapter is a general departure from superstitions and rituals. In essence I want them to have a mindset very similar to the Great Crusade era space marines but without resorting to trapping them into the warp or other such tomfoolery. As for the chapters that helped the Golden Defenders, how would the Mechanicus know about them? It's not like the Golden Defenders would advertise their names, nor would those chapter do that themselves. Secondly, when the Golden Defenders receive help, the hate was mostly unidirectional, the Mechanicus weren't at that particular time very bothered about what the chapter does. Lastly, the fact of several chapters not receiving supplies just because they helped a fellow chapter would have raised an uproar from among the Astartes in general, which is something even your average Fabricator General would try to avoid.

 

Geneseed: It seems a little MISS when your guys improve their method. You mention that they have a more pragmatic approach to technology here. Perhaps you need to make this more apparent with the rest of the article, as this was the first time I really got this. As I said above, I think they'd actually go the other way in regards to technological understanding.

Well, the idea I wanted to put forward was that the Golden Defenders screening techniques went from bad to good and not from good to better. As for the technological pragmatism bit, it should have been handled by the Praetors of Orpheus paragraph...

 

"They have forsaken the greatness of the Omnissiah!? Then let us see how they fare when he forsakes them." - Magos Verrilius Ardot

Perhaps this quote sounds just a little too human for an adept of the Mechanicus, probably more the second sentence.

I'll se what I can do about this quote...

[Freman Bloodglaive]

I think Bertrand Russell said something along the lines of "I would neither kill or die for a belief, because I might be wrong". Marines kill and die for the ultimate belief, that the humanity that the Emperor died for is worth saving. It is certainly a belief without any justification in the 41st millennium.

 

Just as I had to critique a writer who wanted overtly Christian motifs in his Space Marines, so I find the inclusion of faithless marines to be out of place in the 41st millennium. It is the Marine's loyalty to the Emperor (in whatever form they conceive him) that gives them the strength to continue fighting against enemies that not only test their physical strength, but also the strength of their souls.

 

Also given Marines know the Chaos gods are real, the atheistic nature of the Golden Defenders stands more as an example of people's unwillingness to face facts than anything else. If you want gods that answer your prayers, the big CGs are always willing to answer... for a price. They might conclude that faith in the Emperor is bunk, but they'd soon be shipping off to the Eye of Terror.

[Telveryon]

Just as I had to critique a writer who wanted overtly Christian motifs in his Space Marines, so I find the inclusion of faithless marines to be out of place in the 41st millennium. It is the Marine's loyalty to the Emperor (in whatever form they conceive him) that gives them the strength to continue fighting against enemies that not only test their physical strength, but also the strength of their souls.

During the Great Crusade, space marines weren't particularly faithful yet they seem to have done well enough until the Horus Heresy, but then again, the first legion to fall was also the most faithful. The fact is, faith alone isn't protection enough. The Golden Defenders' own dogged beliefs that faith in general and faith in Chaos in particular useless if not downright detrimental to Humanity could strengthen their soul as much as any faith in the Emperor.

 

Also given Marines know the Chaos gods are real

Not for the Golden Defenders, belief that something doesn't exist can be as strong as the belief that something does exist.

 

If you want gods that answer your prayers, the big CGs are always willing to answer... for a price. They might conclude that faith in the Emperor is bunk, but they'd soon be shipping off to the Eye of Terror.

I presume that by this you mean that a chapter without faith in the Emperor is doomed to fall to Chaos. My answer is, why would a chapter that believes that the worship of Chaos the single greatest threat to Humanity's survival fall under its influence? The fact that they don't have faith in the Emperor doesn't mean they don't believe things. For example, they believe that there are no such things as Chaos gods (a thing that was eliminated during the editing and flu right by me). Sure, they may be wrong but then again your average space marine doesn't believe that the Emperor is a god while the average Imperial citizen does, they can't both be right ergo one of them must be wrong

[Gree]

I presume that by this you mean that a chapter without faith in the Emperor is doomed to fall to Chaos. My answer is, why would a chapter that believes that the worship of Chaos the single greatest threat to Humanity's survival fall under its influence? The fact that they don't have faith in the Emperor doesn't mean they don't believe things. For example, they believe that there are no such things as Chaos gods (a thing that was eliminated during the editing and flu right by me). Sure, they may be wrong but then again your average space marine doesn't believe that the Emperor is a god while the average Imperial citizen does, they can't both be right ergo one of them must be wrong

 

Except the chaos Gods are veyr real and very active, how else to you explain spontantous mutation for no reason and Daemonic gifts? Morehowever how to they explain daemonic possesion and the Warp in general?

[Marshal Rohr]

Just as I had to critique a writer who wanted overtly Christian motifs in his Space Marines, so I find the inclusion of faithless marines to be out of place in the 41st millennium. It is the Marine's loyalty to the Emperor (in whatever form they conceive him) that gives them the strength to continue fighting against enemies that not only test their physical strength, but also the strength of their souls.

During the Great Crusade, space marines weren't particularly faithful yet they seem to have done well enough until the Horus Heresy, but then again, the first legion to fall was also the most faithful. The fact is, faith alone isn't protection enough. The Golden Defenders' own dogged beliefs that faith in general and faith in Chaos in particular useless if not downright detrimental to Humanity could strengthen their soul as much as any faith in the Emperor.

 

 

Your confusing the definition of faith. All marines have faith, whether it is in their own abilities or in the Emperor, they can have faith without belief in higher powers. Even Atheists have faith.

[Apothete]

I think Bertrand Russell said something along the lines of "I would neither kill or die for a belief, because I might be wrong". Marines kill and die for the ultimate belief, that the humanity that the Emperor died for is worth saving. It is certainly a belief without any justification in the 41st millennium.

 

I was with you until this last sentence.

 

Regardless of its failings and the obvious degeneracy and corruption that has bled the Imperium for millennia, the simple fact remains that humanity is worth saving if for no other reason than the fulfilment of biological imperative. Every living thing seeks to survive and the reproduce, whether through the literal means of procreation or the more figurative sense of ideas, achievements, worship, or other intangibles. Whether or not there is a moral absolutism that would allow one to say that mankind is "worth saving," the simple fact remains that we are highly advanced animals and we do not wish to die.

 

One of the things which has allowed human civilization to advance beyond tiny clusters of malnourished tribesmen that huddle around fires and fear the darkness is our willingness to specialize labor. The Marines are extreme examples of this, and they are very deliberately trained to ensure the survival of the institutions which, themselves, claim to protect the race.

 

Just as I had to critique a writer who wanted overtly Christian motifs in his Space Marines, so I find the inclusion of faithless marines to be out of place in the 41st millennium. It is the Marine's loyalty to the Emperor (in whatever form they conceive him) that gives them the strength to continue fighting against enemies that not only test their physical strength, but also the strength of their souls.

 

How so?

 

I could see an enormous argument that could be had over whether the population of a planet ravaged by war and half dead from its losses would turn to an atheistic view, rather than worshipping the Chaos gods. The natural inclination amongst people seems to be one where we seek larger cosmic purposes for even small actions and events, but that doesn't mean that it has to be that way or that it couldn't change. Why does it have to be a duopoloy of faith in the Emperor or faith in the Ruinous Powers?

 

Could it not just as easily be that one merely chooses to exist in the universe as best as they can, doing what is possible in the life that they are given?

 

Also given Marines know the Chaos gods are real, the atheistic nature of the Golden Defenders stands more as an example of people's unwillingness to face facts than anything else. If you want gods that answer your prayers, the big CGs are always willing to answer... for a price. They might conclude that faith in the Emperor is bunk, but they'd soon be shipping off to the Eye of Terror.

 

The Astartes don't generally revere the Emperor as a god, and there's certainly no reason why they have to view the Ruinous Powers as dieties either. Even amongst the ranks of their brother Chapters, they can see the influence that warp manipulation can have upon the wars and lives of the Imperium. Though they are commonly described in deific terms, there is absolutely no reason to do that other than convenience of terminology and tradition. All four could easily be classed as merely the most powerful of the daemonic entities that inhabit the warp, themselves only called such because man has labeled them so.

 

Choosing not to fall in line with the Imperium is not the same as enlisting with Abbadon. There are shades of grey between them which are far more interesting than the extremes, and flawed belief is certainly one of those possible themes. It could very well be that the Golden Defenders are entirely wrong in their assertions that no gods exist, but that doesn't make their claim and sillier than the way that the Iron Hands somehow juggle the Omnissiah and the Emperor without venerating either as a deity.

 

Except the chaos Gods are veyr real and very active, how else to you explain spontantous mutation for no reason and Daemonic gifts? Morehowever how to they explain daemonic possesion and the Warp in general?

 

As I said above, a lack of belief in gods does not mean that there is nothing supernatural or beyond the explanations of current understandings of science. The immaterium is manifestly real and something that the Golden Defenders would have to contend with every time they make a warp jump, as are the entities that live there.

 

However, does the power of a thing make it a god? If so, then was Horus not a god since the Emperor, the most powerful human of all time and himself something of a candidate for apotheothis, struggled to slay him?

 

Your confusing the definition of faith. All marines have faith, whether it is in their own abilities or in the Emperor, they can have faith without belief in higher powers. Even Atheists have faith.

 

With all due respect, you're begging the question.

 

Your response assumes that faith is something that every person must have, which you then use as your justification for the claim. That simply isn't true, thought the disagreement could be resulting from what amounts to a difference of terminology.

 

While people generally behave as if certain things are true (e.g. the sun rising, air being breathable, etc.), that doesn't imply that they must then have "faith." The strictest definition of the word would probably be true if you were to argue from that standpoint, since it's almost a necessity that we treat the world in a manner which assumes that certain constants will remain that way. However, the way that the word is more typically used is to imply belief regardless of rationality and that's definitely not something which I would ever agree is a requirement.

 

Even though I'm not an atheist, I find the way that you framed that statement particularly offensive.