Golden Defenders

[Marshal Rohr]

Your confusing the definition of faith. All marines have faith, whether it is in their own abilities or in the Emperor, they can have faith without belief in higher powers. Even Atheists have faith.

 

With all due respect, you're begging the question.

 

Your response assumes that faith is something that every person must have, which you then use as your justification for the claim. That simply isn't true, thought the disagreement could be resulting from what amounts to a difference of terminology.

 

While people generally behave as if certain things are true (e.g. the sun rising, air being breathable, etc.), that doesn't imply that they must then have "faith." The strictest definition of the word would probably be true if you were to argue from that standpoint, since it's almost a necessity that we treat the world in a manner which assumes that certain constants will remain that way. However, the way that the word is more typically used is to imply belief regardless of rationality and that's definitely not something which I would ever agree is a requirement.

 

Even though I'm not an atheist, I find the way that you framed that statement particularly offensive.

 

 

Do you now? When you turn your car on, do you believe it will start? What is that called? When you walk down stairs do you believe they will support your weight? That is faith. That is how I worded it. It would be illogical to assume that my key no longer starts my car, or stairs are incapable of supporting me, or the sun won't rise and set. Just because you choose to attach religious connotations doesn't mean it can't appropriately describe non-religious things. The beauty of the language is the ability to use many different words to describe many different things.

 

Also, when people say:

 

With all due respect

 

I can't help but think of the line from Mass Effect....

[Apothete]

Do you now? When you turn your car on, do you believe it will start? What is that called? When you walk down stairs do you believe they will support your weight?

 

I know where this is going.

 

That is faith. That is how I worded it. It would be illogical to assume that my key no longer starts my car, or stairs are incapable of supporting me, or the sun won't rise and set.

 

No, that is belief which is supported by experiential evidence and repeated occurrences of the expected phenomena. It is a functional and basically necessary worldview that allows one to act without being paralyzed by the impossibility of testing every possible instance of every thing that is presented in the course of a day. We have neither the time nor the ability to judge every single event separately from all of our others, and it would lead to a far different sort of mind than the ones we possess if we didn't hold onto past information as an advisory for the future. To call that system of behavior "faith" is to do a grave disservice both to any hope of precision in the English language and to the adaptive history of our own evolution.

 

The major difference between what I describe and the way that you were using the word "faith" in your extremely brief reply was to suggest that Telveryon, who struggles some with the English language as it is, was being imprecise and incorrect in his usage. On the contrary, he sticks to only a single version of the word instead of shifting contexts. We have a non-native speaker who is trying to improve his article while stating his ideas as clearly as he can, where the intention and meaning of his words was abundantly clear to anyone who isn't trying to push a personal view above the clarity of his intent. The obvious impression that one is to take is that the Golden Defenders don't have any faith in the Emperor's divinity or the inherent moral rightness of the Imperium itself, despite doing their best to preserve mankind. To claim that Telveryon meant that they don't expect their guns to fire or that physical laws suddenly cease to funcation is absurd, and it's hard to see any other intention in your post.

 

If there is something else at work here, I genuinely would like to hear it rather than have us at each others' throats over this.

 

Just because you choose to attach religious connotations doesn't mean it can't appropriately describe non-religious things. The beauty of the language is the ability to use many different words to describe many different things.

 

The word "faith" as it is typically used has religious connotations, because it implies a strong belief regardless of any detrimental or contraindicative factors. I have a hard time seeing why this is a point of argument for you unless you're deliberately trying to start an argument.

 

As we both know, since I'm a regular and you're apparently a Lexicanium now, this is hardly the place to start an extended argument on the nature of knowledge and belief, nor is it really the venue for a religious debate outside of the context of the Imperium itself. There's definitely room for discussion of how atheism would impact Marines, but that seemed to be the smallest portion of an already curt post. Perhaps I'm reading too much into it, but it seems almost like an intentional backhand to anyone who doesn't agree with you.

 

I can't help but think of the line from Mass Effect....

 

I'll admit that I had to look the quote up, but I think that it's a little disingenuous to be using that as a way to circumvent the board rules on language.

 

Whatever you might think of other people's usage of the phrase, I only added it because I genuinely wanted to soften what I was fairly sure would come across as a harsh and argumentative post. Even now, I've gone back and rewritten my first version of this reply because I'm not interested in flame wars or fights, but rather in resolving the issue and getting something useful out of all of this for Telveryon. When I throw out a term like respect in reference to someone in a discussion like that, it's because I think that the person is due that consideration through some combination of knowledge, behavior, or standing.

 

However, this isn't about us any more than it's about dissecting the meaning of a word. I'm trying to discuss the issue. Will you?

[Marshal Rohr]

The following quote is to be read in a light hearted and jovial tone, with any slights to be taken as good hearted teasing and joking amongst fellow forum goers. Just so everyone knows....

 

Just as I had to critique a writer who wanted overtly Christian motifs in his Space Marines, so I find the inclusion of faithless marines to be out of place in the 41st millennium. It is the Marine's loyalty to the Emperor (in whatever form they conceive him) that gives them the strength to continue fighting against enemies that not only test their physical strength, but also the strength of their souls.

During the Great Crusade, space marines weren't particularly faithful yet they seem to have done well enough until the Horus Heresy, but then again, the first legion to fall was also the most faithful. The fact is, faith alone isn't protection enough. The Golden Defenders' own dogged beliefs that faith in general and faith in Chaos in particular useless if not downright detrimental to Humanity could strengthen their soul as much as any faith in the Emperor.

 

 

Your confusing the definition of faith. All marines have faith, whether it is in their own abilities or in the Emperor, they can have faith without belief in higher powers. Even Atheists have faith.

 

 

Ok, here is where I stepped in. I don't know anything about Tel. I checked the last new post and saw that, having given the thread a read earlier, when it was originally posted. I was attempting to clear something up, because I though T may not have understood different people read things different ways.

 

 

So now here is the new problem:

Do you now? When you turn your car on, do you believe it will start? What is that called? When you walk down stairs do you believe they will support your weight?

 

I know where this is going.

 

If you think its going to an argument, you have jumped the gun and sprinted way beyond.

 

That is faith. That is how I worded it. It would be illogical to assume that my key no longer starts my car, or stairs are incapable of supporting me, or the sun won't rise and set.

 

No, that is belief which is supported by experiential evidence and repeated occurrences of the expected phenomena. It is a functional and basically necessary worldview that allows one to act without being paralyzed by the impossibility of testing every possible instance of every thing that is presented in the course of a day. However, the difference between that and the way that you were using the word "faith" in your extremely brief and pat reply was to imply that Telveryon, who struggles some with the English language as it is, was being imprecise and incorrect in his usage.

 

Definition of Faith

 

Faith  [feyth]

–noun

1. confidence or trust in a person or thing: faith in another's ability.

2. belief that is not based on proof: He had faith that the hypothesis would be substantiated by fact.

3. belief in God or in the doctrines or teachings of religion: the firm faith of the Pilgrims.

4. belief in anything, as a code of ethics, standards of merit, etc.: to be of the same faith with someone concerning honesty.

5. a system of religious belief: the Christian faith; the Jewish faith.

6. the obligation of loyalty or fidelity to a person, promise, engagement, etc.: Failure to appear would be breaking faith.

7. the observance of this obligation; fidelity to one's promise, oath, allegiance, etc.: He was the only one who proved his faith during our recent troubles.

8. Christian Theology. the trust in God and in His promises as made through Christ and the Scriptures by which humans are justified or saved.

 

Bolded for reference to below.

 

On the contrary, he uses only a single version of the word instead of shifting contexts as you do and it's that which I take offense to.

 

Then you have made a mistake.

 

We have a non-native speaker who is trying to improve his article while stating his ideas as clearly as he can, where the intention and meaning of his words was abundantly clear and only muddied by your dragging in what amounts to a metaphysical and possibly teleological argument over the application of a word in our notoriously imprecise and mutable bastard of a language. The clear meaning of his writing is that the Golden Defenders don't have any faith in the Emperor's divinity or the inherent moral rightness of the Imperium itself, despite doing their best to preserve mankind.

 

Well I applaud you for being deprecating about the English Language and the way it was created, I sure it will win you many points with non-english speakers, I have got to disagree with you thinking I am assigning hidden theological barbs to my posts. The part in Italics is what I am of course referring to. Nope, no attempt to drag anything here, I was just saying that, as above you can see, the word has many meanings, not all of them theological. While T may have an excellent grasp of what he wants, not everyone else may understand, and I am speaking on behalf of that side.

 

Just because you choose to attach religious connotations doesn't mean it can't appropriately describe non-religious things. The beauty of the language is the ability to use many different words to describe many different things.

 

Sanctimony gets you nowhere and it was abundantly clear what you were suggesting.

 

Was it? I don't even know what you think I am suggesting an neither does several other posters who have crossed the thread. Enlighten me as to what hidden message I am preaching?

 

The alternative is that you either accidentally shifted meanings between your usages of examples or that you were deliberately muddying the waters in order to make some kind of personal statement about your views on faith.

 

I understand it is difficult to understand some posts, occasionally. Sometime my posts need to be read aloud, because I write as I speak. It works or Cormac Mccarthy and I love No Country for Old Men. SO: Just so everyone knows, I am not making any statements about my beliefs or lack there of, about any religious subject. I am VERY familiar with what is and isn't approved for posting here, I certainly have been reprimanded :) .

 

This is hardly the place to start an extended argument on the nature of knowledge and belief, nor is it really the venue for a religious debate outside of the context of the Imperium itself, and I don't think that your parting shot in that post served much of any purpose but to take a dig at others.

 

Nor, it seems, does your further edit in the most recent reply. If this can't remain civil, we should probably both drop it.

 

It is civil. I certainly am not angry, or willing to debate anything theological. But it wasn't so much a dig as a funny inside joke between myself and another poster. I am certain you will begrudge me a little humor betwixt me and my homies.

[Apothete]

Is it possible to have a moderator immortalize the old post that I hoped would slip off the radar before anyone could read or reply to it, so that newbies will have an example of what not to do? I wrote the first version in a huff and tried to get rid of it with a hasty cut and switch while I revised, but even that apparently failed.

 

Kiddies, take your medicine. Own up when you screw up.

 

To everyone else, I hope that this doesn't derail the discussion too much. I'll bow out for the night and hopefully find something productive has been accomplished when I come back.

[Telveryon]

The Astartes don't generally revere the Emperor as a god, and there's certainly no reason why they have to view the Ruinous Powers as deities either. Even amongst the ranks of their brother Chapters, they can see the influence that warp manipulation can have upon the wars and lives of the Imperium. Though they are commonly described in deific terms, there is absolutely no reason to do that other than convenience of terminology and tradition. All four could easily be classed as merely the most powerful of the daemonic entities that inhabit the warp, themselves only called such because man has labeled them so.

 

Choosing not to fall in line with the Imperium is not the same as enlisting with Abbadon. There are shades of grey between them which are far more interesting than the extremes, and flawed belief is certainly one of those possible themes. It could very well be that the Golden Defenders are entirely wrong in their assertions that no gods exist, but that doesn't make their claim and sillier than the way that the Iron Hands somehow juggle the Omnissiah and the Emperor without venerating either as a deity.

And Apothete swoops in for the rescue and yet again puts it far better then I ever could! Is there any tangible proof that the Chaos Gods are actually gods? they're not all powerful as they have been thwarted time and again by mere mortals, they are not omniscient either... In the eyes of the Golden Defenders the Chaos Gods are exactly as Apothete put it, powerful warp entities that fool mortal servant into believing they are gods so that they may be manipulated easier.

 

Except the chaos Gods are veyr real and very active, how else to you explain spontantous mutation for no reason and Daemonic gifts? Morehowever how to they explain daemonic possesion and the Warp in general?

 

As I said above, a lack of belief in gods does not mean that there is nothing supernatural or beyond the explanations of current understandings of science. The immaterium is manifestly real and something that the Golden Defenders would have to contend with every time they make a warp jump, as are the entities that live there.

 

However, does the power of a thing make it a god? If so, then was Horus not a god since the Emperor, the most powerful human of all time and himself something of a candidate for apotheothis, struggled to slay him?

Again, Apothete puts it very well. I would support his point of view with a question of my own. How do the space marines explain the acts of faith of the Sisters of Battle?

 

As for the whole faith debate:

During the Great Crusade, space marines weren't particularly faithful yet they seem to have done well enough until the Horus Heresy, but then again, the first legion to fall was also the most faithful. The fact is, faith alone isn't protection enough. The Golden Defenders' own dogged beliefs that faith in general and faith in Chaos in particular useless if not downright detrimental to Humanity could strengthen their soul as much as any faith in the Emperor.

 

Your confusing the definition of faith. All marines have faith, whether it is in their own abilities or in the Emperor, they can have faith without belief in higher powers. Even Atheists have faith.

Ok, here is where I stepped in. I don't know anything about Tel. I checked the last new post and saw that, having given the thread a read earlier, when it was originally posted. I was attempting to clear something up, because I though T may not have understood different people read things different ways.

And therein lies your mistake, I believe. My mistake was to use the word faith in my post out of context, and I apologize for that. However, if you read the IA proper you'll find that the word "faith" is either preceded or immediately followed by a religious context. Claiming that the word "faith" in such a situation can have more then one meaning seems a bit erroneous to me.

 

Well I applaud you for being deprecating about the English Language and the way it was created, I sure it will win you many points with non-english speakers,

Not with me! I like the English language!

[Freman Bloodglaive]

Just as I had to critique a writer who wanted overtly Christian motifs in his Space Marines, so I find the inclusion of faithless marines to be out of place in the 41st millennium. It is the Marine's loyalty to the Emperor (in whatever form they conceive him) that gives them the strength to continue fighting against enemies that not only test their physical strength, but also the strength of their souls.

During the Great Crusade, space marines weren't particularly faithful yet they seem to have done well enough until the Horus Heresy, but then again, the first legion to fall was also the most faithful. The fact is, faith alone isn't protection enough. The Golden Defenders' own dogged beliefs that faith in general and faith in Chaos in particular useless if not downright detrimental to Humanity could strengthen their soul as much as any faith in the Emperor.

 

Also given Marines know the Chaos gods are real

Not for the Golden Defenders, belief that something doesn't exist can be as strong as the belief that something does exist.

 

If you want gods that answer your prayers, the big CGs are always willing to answer... for a price. They might conclude that faith in the Emperor is bunk, but they'd soon be shipping off to the Eye of Terror.

I presume that by this you mean that a chapter without faith in the Emperor is doomed to fall to Chaos. My answer is, why would a chapter that believes that the worship of Chaos the single greatest threat to Humanity's survival fall under its influence? The fact that they don't have faith in the Emperor doesn't mean they don't believe things. For example, they believe that there are no such things as Chaos gods (a thing that was eliminated during the editing and flu right by me). Sure, they may be wrong but then again your average space marine doesn't believe that the Emperor is a god while the average Imperial citizen does, they can't both be right ergo one of them must be wrong

 

A dogged belief that something does not exist in the face of the pretty blatant evidence that it does is not faith. It's pure wrong headedness. To take your last line. That one of them must be wrong doesn't mean that both are. The Marine lives his life in service to the Emperor and Mankind, that is keeping faith. The Marine doesn't need to believe that the Emperor is a god to do so. If Marines in general do not regard the Emperor as a god, then they cannot lose faith in him as such because they never had it, making the defining characteristic of the Golden Defenders pointless. If you want a more apt example of a Space Marine chapter that doesn't ask the Emperor for much try the Space Wolves. To them the Emperor and the Primarch merely stand above judging their actions to see if they be worthy for Ragnorak, but they still keep faith with the Emperor and the Imperium.

 

Marines watching a group of people who expected the Emperor to show up and rescue them personally, especially after his angels, his Space Marines, had already turned up to do the job wouldn't lose faith because those people were killed. They'd regard it as the result of shear stupidity and move on, possibly using it as an teaching lesson of how improper imposition on the Emperor results in righteous punishment. Losing half their number in battle wouldn't phase them; look at the Crimson Fists who suffered far worse. The religion of the Space Marines is a warrior religion. To fall in battle is seen as an honourable thing, as long as their face is to the enemy.

 

A chapter without that element of loyalty to the Emperor will fall to Chaos, we have the evidence of 9 whole legions who did so. Believing that something is "the greatest threat to Humanity" does not prevent one falling to it. Tzeentch for example would have a field day getting them to attack this that and the other believing that they were "fighting Chaos".

[Marshal Rohr]

As for the whole faith debate:

During the Great Crusade, space marines weren't particularly faithful yet they seem to have done well enough until the Horus Heresy, but then again, the first legion to fall was also the most faithful. The fact is, faith alone isn't protection enough. The Golden Defenders' own dogged beliefs that faith in general and faith in Chaos in particular useless if not downright detrimental to Humanity could strengthen their soul as much as any faith in the Emperor.

 

Your confusing the definition of faith. All marines have faith, whether it is in their own abilities or in the Emperor, they can have faith without belief in higher powers. Even Atheists have faith.

Ok, here is where I stepped in. I don't know anything about Tel. I checked the last new post and saw that, having given the thread a read earlier, when it was originally posted. I was attempting to clear something up, because I though T may not have understood different people read things different ways.

And therein lies your mistake, I believe. My mistake was to use the word faith in my post out of context, and I apologize for that. However, if you read the IA proper you'll find that the word "faith" is either preceded or immediately followed by a religious context. Claiming that the word "faith" in such a situation can have more then one meaning seems a bit erroneous to me.

 

I bolded the portion for emphasis. I stopped by and responded because it was at the top of the newly posted list. I havn't re-read your article since it was posted :P! I saw something that I didn't think was quite right and commented.

 

 

As for T's marines being 'Atheist': I like it. The original Legions were for all intents and purposes Atheists, so there is little reason these marines cannot say the Emperor is not a God. The repercussions of this are up to T himself. I have always considered the Chaos Gods to be extra-dimensional aliens, and not deities, but our weak minds classify them as such because we cannot understand how something so powerful could not be a deity. Like Dr. Manhattan.

[Telveryon]

A dogged belief that something does not exist in the face of the pretty blatant evidence that it does is not faith.

Yep, it doesn't, which happens to fit quite well with a chapter that doesn't give faith much credit...

 

It's pure wrong headedness. To take your last line. That one of them must be wrong doesn't mean that both are. The Marine lives his life in service to the Emperor and Mankind, that is keeping faith. The Marine doesn't need to believe that the Emperor is a god to do so. If Marines in general do not regard the Emperor as a god, then they cannot lose faith in him as such because they never had it, making the defining characteristic of the Golden Defenders pointless.

Again we return to the meanings of the word faith. In the IA proper there is no mention that the Golden Defenders have lost faith that their bolters wouldn't fire or that the Imperium would fall or that Humanity cannot endure. They have lost religious faith! Your average space marine doesn't see the Emperor as a god but as a great ancestor that still watches over them and judges their actions, something akin to ancestor worship, the Golden Defenders simply don't believe even that, they see the Emperor as a man that may or may not be alive that has no influence over their lives whatsoever.

 

If you want a more apt example of a Space Marine chapter that doesn't ask the Emperor for much try the Space Wolves. To them the Emperor and the Primarch merely stand above judging their actions to see if they be worthy for Ragnorak, but they still keep faith with the Emperor and the Imperium.

Your defeating your won argument, if the Space Wolves ask so little of the Emperor, then how come they aren't manipulated by Chaos? Secondly, faith in the Emperor and the Imperium are two different things.

 

Marines watching a group of people who expected the Emperor to show up and rescue them personally, especially after his angels, his Space Marines, had already turned up to do the job wouldn't lose faith because those people were killed.

I'm quite sure it says in that part of the IA that their faith was shaken not lost, but don't quote me on that. I belive that Golden Defenders lost their faith (in a religious context) during the Age of Apostasy when billions of people died because one cardinal thought the Emperor had a mole on his left cheek and another one didn't (I'm obviously exaggerating...)

 

They'd regard it as the result of shear stupidity and move on, possibly using it as an teaching lesson of how improper imposition on the Emperor results in righteous punishment.

And why do you see believe that they cannot simply stop at the sheer stupidity part?

 

Losing half their number in battle wouldn't phase them; look at the Crimson Fists who suffered far worse.

Again, I'm quite sure that the part you refer to speaks of the population of the planet rather then the marines...

 

To fall in battle is seen as an honourable thing, as long as their face is to the enemy.

I believe something along those lines can be found in the second paragraph of the Combat Doctrine section, but again, don't quote me on that. ;)

 

A chapter without that element of loyalty to the Emperor will fall to Chaos, we have the evidence of 9 whole legions who did so.

And we have 9 other that didn't... That's not a very good argument. And lets not forget that the Legion that had the most faith in the Emperor was the one to fall first... Hmm....

 

Believing that something is "the greatest threat to Humanity" does not prevent one falling to it.

I fail to see why... Does the belief of imminent death stop a person from jumping off a cliff? I'm pretty sure it does, then why does the belief from that something is the greatest threat to Humanity not prevent you from doing it?

 

Tzeentch for example would have a field day getting them to attack this that and the other believing that they were "fighting Chaos".

By your train of thought Tzeench could just as easily manipulate the Ultramarines to kill the Emperor just as easily.

 

Ok, here is where I stepped in. I don't know anything about Tel. I checked the last new post and saw that, having given the thread a read earlier, when it was originally posted. I was attempting to clear something up, because I though T may not have understood different people read things different ways.

I bolded the portion for emphasis. I stopped by and responded because it was at the top of the newly posted list. I havn't re-read your article since it was posted :tu:! I saw something that I didn't think was quite right and commented.

Thus this thing was all a big misunderstanding brought on by lack of clarity in expression. Again I must apologize for that! But you should re-read it, it was edited by Octavulg, it flows much better (baring those parts he didn't edit...)!

 

As for T's marines being 'Atheist': I like it. The original Legions were for all intents and purposes Atheists, so there is little reason these marines cannot say the Emperor is not a God. The repercussions of this are up to T himself. I have always considered the Chaos Gods to be extra-dimensional aliens, and not deities, but our weak minds classify them as such because we cannot understand how something so powerful could not be a deity. Like Dr. Manhattan.

I'm glad you like it! I aim to please! (The majority anyway.)

[Marshal Rohr]

It's pure wrong headedness. To take your last line. That one of them must be wrong doesn't mean that both are. The Marine lives his life in service to the Emperor and Mankind, that is keeping faith. The Marine doesn't need to believe that the Emperor is a god to do so. If Marines in general do not regard the Emperor as a god, then they cannot lose faith in him as such because they never had it, making the defining characteristic of the Golden Defenders pointless.

 

I don't think I said that? But everything else is cool.

[Telveryon]

Ops! Sorry about that, I'll go fix it!

[Telveryon]

I've added a bit in the "Age of Apostasy" section to clarify the their loss of faith, I've also added a very small bit why the chapter refused to go along with a charade just to appease the Mechanicus.

[Apothete]

The Age of Apostasy had a considerable impact on the Golden Defenders' way of thinking. During this time of great upheaval, the Golden Defenders strove to remain neutral in the internal matters of the Imperium and concentrate on external enemies. But even so they were dragged into several battles between various factions, such as Cardinal Gerention's Pacification or the Most Holy Gallarian Crusade, and in every one of those conflicts the sheer waste of lives appalled them.

 

My only gripe here is the named conflicts, which I don't recall being mentioned anywhere else in the article. Unless you're going to develop them further, I would probably cut the references.

 

The final sentence could probably be more clearly rewritten as: Even so, they were dragged unwillingly into battles between the warring factions, appalled at the waste of Imperial lives throughout the conflict.

 

In an age of religious turmoil and tests of faith, the Golden Defenders abandoned theirs. Wherever the Golden Defenders looked all they saw was faith perverted with many claiming divinity or sanctity in the Emperor's name to further their own ends. As the incessant holy wars raged and planets burned on mere whims, the chapter became convinced that humanity was failing due to its own misguided faith. Of these wars none had such an effect of the Golden Defenders as the Cleansing of Verrilia where the inhabitants claimed the Emperor Himself was leading them. The people of Verrilia set out to conquer the Amercius sector for their so called Emperor. The chapter had no choice but to wage war on the verrilians, war that eventually lead the to the destruction of the planet and the unmasking of the would be Emperor as a daemon prince that had usurped the faith of the world. Other wars, such as the Holy Berrelian Crusade, only strengthened the views of the Golden Defenders.

 

As usual, I think that your intentions are clear and the direction that you're taking is both logical and useful to the description of your Chapter. However, I do think that this could be edited to be a little clearer overall.

 

Since you're intending for the Verrilians to have an actual, temporal leader, I would make that more apparent in the earlier sentences. Until I reached the point where you revealed that the imposted Emperor was a daemon prince, I was under the impression that the population was merely misguided and not being lead directly. Also, the addition of an unfleshed conflict doesn't really add anything here, though I think you could easily throw in a few sentences to show how this further war added to their jaded view of the bloody, wasteful foibles of their contemporaries.

 

But the the disagreements between the Mechanicus and the Golden Defenders became even more tense when the latter refused to answer the distress call of a Adeptus Mechanicus exploratory fleet, choosing instead to continue to their original destination despite being the closest Imperial force.

 

I believe that you'll find the proper form of address to be Adeptus Mechanicus Explorator, in that the commander of such a fleet would be a Magos or Archmagos Explorator. They're a sub-order or specialty within the Adeptus itself, much like the Biologis or the Genetor.

 

The Golden Defenders were acquitted as their refusal to aid the Mechanicus allowed them to quickly reach their destination whereupon they swiftly, if somewhat brutally, quenched a rebellion that otherwise might have affected thew stability of an entire sub-sector.

 

Bolded to highlight the mistake.

 

The Machanicus did not let this affront go unanswered and accused the Golden Defenders of having a corrupted gene seed as well as not delivering their genes seed tithes in an effort to discredit the chapter.

 

Maybe it's just the editor in me talking, but I think that a reversal of the sentence makes it more readable.

 

The Mechanicus did not let this affront go unanswered, attempting to discredit the Chapter through accusations of corrupted or completely missing geneseed tithes.

 

---

 

I'll give it a complete going-over sometime tomorrow, but those are the immediate issues I spotted in the places that you mentioned changes.

[Ace Debonair]

Those who fight beside the Golden Defenders may find themselves bought and sold, my Lords. But they will not, I think, find themselves needlessly spent."- Lord Patron Havelock DeNistry

 

Hahahaha, thank you fellow Discworld fan for paraphrasing Partician of Ankh-Morpork, Havelock Vetinari. :ermm:

 

The play on the name and rank in particular made me chuckle further.

Masterful. :D

 

Having read the most recent version of the chapter's story I am much impressed. I like the conflict with the Mechanicus, and the use of the inquisition to ward off potential problems stemming from that conflict. The story was interesting and fun to read also, particularly the Golden Defenders 'putting up with' the Imperial cults becasue it would be less hassle than driving them off. The combat doctrine was also a fascinating insight into the chapter, as the well-written ones often are. From what I understand, the GD's don't fear their deaths, only that their deaths might be wasted - correct me if I have this wrong.

 

I can easily imagine them becoming a stalwart force within the DIY Imperium. I hope my chapter turns out one half as excellent. Good work, all in all! :P

[Telveryon]

The Age of Apostasy had a considerable impact on the Golden Defenders' way of thinking. During this time of great upheaval, the Golden Defenders strove to remain neutral in the internal matters of the Imperium and concentrate on external enemies. But even so they were dragged into several battles between various factions, such as Cardinal Gerention's Pacification or the Most Holy Gallarian Crusade, and in every one of those conflicts the sheer waste of lives appalled them.

 

My only gripe here is the named conflicts, which I don't recall being mentioned anywhere else in the article. Unless you're going to develop them further, I would probably cut the references.

I could but they do give an air of legitimacy to the Golden Defenders disdain for religious faith, ergo I'm not too keen on removing them.

 

Since you're intending for the Verrilians to have an actual, temporal leader, I would make that more apparent in the earlier sentences. Until I reached the point where you revealed that the imposted Emperor was a daemon prince, I was under the impression that the population was merely misguided and not being lead directly. Also, the addition of an unfleshed conflict doesn't really add anything here, though I think you could easily throw in a few sentences to show how this further war added to their jaded view of the bloody, wasteful foibles of their contemporaries.

The reason the conflict isn't very fleshed out is that I'm a terrible story teller. If I try to get into too much detail I inevitably get bogged down and that's something I tried to avoid in this article to the best of my abilities since to previous versions remained unfinished because of such details. Though detailing how it affected the chapter is a good idea.

 

As for the writing recommendations, they've been noted and acted upon!

 

Those who fight beside the Golden Defenders may find themselves bought and sold, my Lords. But they will not, I think, find themselves needlessly spent."- Lord Patron Havelock DeNistry

 

Hahahaha, thank you fellow Discworld fan for paraphrasing Partician of Ankh-Morpork, Havelock Vetinari. :)

 

The play on the name and rank in particular made me chuckle further.

Masterful. :)

Actually, that wasn't me... That was a quote proposed by Octavulg, but it does fit seamlessly with the feel I wanted for the chapter and is far better then the quote I made up.

 

Having read the most recent version of the chapter's story I am much impressed. I like the conflict with the Mechanicus, and the use of the inquisition to ward off potential problems stemming from that conflict.

The Inquisition doesn't ward off all problems, that would be rather convenient and a bit tacky as well. The Golden Defenders for the most part have to fend for themselves when it comes to equipment and the training of techmarines.

 

The story was interesting and fun to read also, particularly the Golden Defenders 'putting up with' the Imperial cults becasue it would be less hassle than driving them off. The combat doctrine was also a fascinating insight into the chapter, as the well-written ones often are. From what I understand, the GD's don't fear their deaths, only that their deaths might be wasted - correct me if I have this wrong.

To correct you just a bit. No space marine fears his death. The Golden Defenders might fear the wasting of their death, but since their leaders are not too keen on wasting lives it's rather unlikely to happen. What they do fear is the wasting of the lives of other.

 

For example, the Golden Defenders would applaud an Imperial Guard general the sacrifices a regiment so that he might crush the enemy elsewhere but they would very critical of a general that sends wave after wave of guardsmen at the enemy just because he has no better plan.

 

I can easily imagine them becoming a stalwart force within the DIY Imperium. I hope my chapter turns out one half as excellent. Good work, all in all! :o

I thank you for the compliment, but I can't take credit for all of it. The ideas are mine but the quality of the writing is due to the fact that Octavulg edited almost all paragraphs. My advice to you would be to hang in there and don't expect that your chapter is done once you finished the first draft, I can pretty much guarantee that your first IA will be far better then the first variant of this article. In my experience, time can make even the worst IA good (the present work being perfect example) and good Ia into true gems (see Ice Lords, The Castigators and Exonerators).

 

But I have question for you, Ace Debonair, is there a chapter you don't like? Because as far as I've read, you're yet to say that you don't like a chapter.

[Grand Master Tyrak]

The Inquisition doesn't ward off all problems, that would be rather convenient and a bit tacky as well.

 

Just for reference, it was you who coined the phrase "Inquisitor ex machina", wasn't it?

[Ace Debonair]

A chapter I don't like? Do you mean a custom chapter or a GW chapter?

 

Custom ones I like quite a lot, if nothing else to see how different people make use of ideas.

 

Official chapters I'm not too fond of are the Blood Angels and the Space Wolves. Not a big fan of vampires in any form, and having Werewolf Space Marines always seemed like a Chaos thing to me. Chaos-wise, not a huge fan of the Black Legion or the Emperor's Children. The former strike me as dull and the latter as bizarre - guitars as weapons should be limited to professional wrestling. :D

 

I also look to encourage the good in people's ideas, rather than hasten to unmask the bad.

I'd hate to rob others of the chance to criticize. :D

 

Edit:

I'd also like to apologize for getting the wrong end of the stick with the inquisition's involvement. I more-or-less understood what you meant even before you corrected me, but I perhaps didn't convey that very well in writing.

 

Also I should have said that I thought the GD are not concerned by death, only by needless waste of life. My use of the word fear was rather out of place, thanks for correcting me.

[Telveryon]

The Inquisition doesn't ward off all problems, that would be rather convenient and a bit tacky as well.

 

Just for reference, it was you who coined the phrase "Inquisitor ex machina", wasn't it?

Indeed I did, however Golden Defenders are not a case of it. Inquisitor ex machina is when an inquisitor pops out of nowhere and fixes some problem the chapter has. The Golden Defenders on the other hand are almost unwillingly driven to close relations with the Inquisition by the machinations of the Mechanicus, there is no popping out of the blue, only consequences of events.

 

A chapter I don't like? Do you mean a custom chapter or a GW chapter?

 

Custom ones I like quite a lot, if nothing else to see how different people make use of ideas.

I did mean custom ones, but fair enough.

 

I'd also like to apologize for getting the wrong end of the stick with the inquisition's involvement. I more-or-less understood what you meant even before you corrected me, but I perhaps didn't convey that very well in writing.

 

Also I should have said I thought the GD are not concerned by death, only by needless waste of life. My use of the word fear was rather out of place, thanks for correcting me.

There is definitely no need to apologize, seeing that this is for all intents and purposes literature, things can be interpreted differently by different people.

 

On a side note, I've made the addition suggested by Apothete.

[Grand Master Tyrak]

The Inquisition doesn't ward off all problems, that would be rather convenient and a bit tacky as well.

Just for reference, it was you who coined the phrase "Inquisitor ex machina", wasn't it?

Indeed I did, however Golden Defenders are not a case of it. Inquisitor ex machina is when an inquisitor pops out of nowhere and fixes some problem the chapter has.

 

I didn't mean to imply that, just that having the Inquisition warding off all problems would be Inquisitor ex machina.

[Telveryon]

I didn't mean to imply that, just that having the Inquisition warding off all problems would be Inquisitor ex machina.

Oh! Then I must apologize for misunderstanding. I've grown so accustomed to both giving and receiving criticism that unless obvious, I tend to interpret every post as such.

[Nomus Sardauk]

I really like this Chapter, the idea of "faithless" marines has been very appealing to me ever since reading the Soul Drinkers books. Telveryon, I was wondering if I might use the Golden Defenders in the history of my Brotherhood of Steel. Do I have your permission to use them? If you wish I can provide more info on how I would do it and the nature of their appearance. Thanks.

[Philip S]

@ Telveryon - I missed these. I've added them to the 1,000 Chapter project.

 

@ The 13th Goat - I missed the 'Hammers Of Dorn' too!

 

Both added.

 

Philip

[Telveryon]

Ok, I haven't meddled with these guys for quite some time (for about a year and a half).

 

I haven't changed much as there was little point. But what I have changed is the disagreements with the Mechanicus, it should be a little less Deus Ex Machina and more of a normal progression of events. I've also meddled in the Organization section, mostly word reduction in its latter part.

[Grey Hunter Ydalir]

The Chapter has proportionally high number of tech-marines among its members, which along with the librarians and apothecaries have mostly forsaken their role specific heraldry in favor of the black and gold of the Chapter in an effort to bolster the sense of brotherhood among the Space Marines. Which has lead to the rest of the Chapter to offer the proper respect to these valiant members rather then holding them in fear or awe.

 

With all due respect (don't hurt me! :P ), this doesn't work for me.

 

I'd also hesitate to say that Apothecaries are held in fear or awe by their brothers. They don't swear allegiance to the Omnissiah before/alongside the Emperor and they don't possess fearsome psychic abilities that mark them out to be somewhat of a mutant.

 

Also, just who convinced these different groups to forsake the oaths they took upon joining them and repaint their armour? That's something rarely done for marines. Even the Deathwatch leave a single pauldron in their chapters colours and heraldry so that they don't offend their armour's machine spirit.

 

Given that level of superstition among normal marines, what would a Techmarine say if you asked him to remove the dusty red of Mars' machine cult?

[NightrawenII]

I minor formating comment; there should be place between the title and quote. It will be easier to read.

 

Age of Apostasy

It is only due to the good works of Thor's Confederation of Light that the Golden Defenders became more moderate in their views of the Ecclesiarchy, but by the end of the 41 Millennium almost all of the chapter's rituals had been abolished.

- I disagree here. They would still venerate or revere the Emperor and the Primarch for their deeds and achievements. The lack of diviny or distaste for divinity doesn't preclude you to honour someone. And most of the Chapters don't worship the Emperor as god or divine being.

- Also, the *ritual* is not tied to religious action.

 

Disagreements with the Mechanicus

"They have forsaken the greatness of the Omnissiah!? Then let us see how they fare when he forsakes them." - Magos Verrilius Ardot

- Similar to the name of planet Verrilia.

 

Such incidents were a considerable source of friction between the marines and the tech-priests, so much so that eventually the Golden Defenders refused to send their technically adept brothers to the Mechanicus for training freeing themselves from what they saw as the influence of the Adeptus Mechanicus.

- I think thats the point of sending the Techmarines to Mars. :P

 

Of the chapters that answered the Golden Defenders' plea for aid, the Praetors of Orpheus had the greatest impact. Their tech-marines did much to dispel the superstition still plaguing the Golden Defenders in regards to machines.

- Simple question: How? The Techmarines of PoO are still send and taught on the Mars. I know, they are of 2nd Founding, but we are 5,000 years in the future. Old ways are twisted and corrupted over time.

 

Not only that, but their apology was meet with nothing but scorn by the marine masters of Mercurial, who could not forget nor forgive the near destruction of their homeworld.

- May I suggest the *Astartes masters of Mercurial*?

 

As a counter, the Space Marines accused the Mechanicus of not fulfilling their duty as keepers of technology when they abandoned Mercurial and thus forfeiting any claim over the machined found on the planet as well as threatening their autonomy as Astartes, more over the Golden Defenders presented several missives from various chapters supporting their point of view.

- Well, I haven't heard about any underground movement amongs the Techmarines, so I would be wary of making up stuff.

- As the side note, your sentences are damn too long. :lol:

 

Caught between risking to anger the Adeptus Mechanicus on one hand and a possible Astartes rebellion on the other, the conclave found itself bogged down in endless debate.

- On the same note; Why would other Chapters risk the anger of Admech?

 

The Golden Defenders, like so many other Space Marine Chapters, do not worship the Emperor of Man.

- Yes, but they still revere him in some or other way.

 

Homeworld

Unsurprisingly, the chapter favors those who preach obedience to the Imperium, while those of a more fiery bent soon find themselves escorted off-planet.

 

I'd also hesitate to say that Apothecaries are held in fear or awe by their brothers. They don't swear allegiance to the Omnissiah before/alongside the Emperor and they don't possess fearsome psychic abilities that mark them out to be somewhat of a mutant.

In fear maybe not, but in awe most likely. The Apothecaries are usually hardcore warriors, who fight in order to save and protect their brethen.

[Telveryon]

Concerning Grey Hunter Ydalir grievances...

 

With all due respect (don't hurt me! :lol: ), this doesn't work for me.

With all due respect, I'm not a sadist that takes pleasure from hurting his fellow man. Though, on second though I never got to give it a good try, let be grab my whip and let's see where it goes.

 

I'd also hesitate to say that Apothecaries are held in fear or awe by their brothers. They don't swear allegiance to the Omnissiah before/alongside the Emperor and they don't possess fearsome psychic abilities that mark them out to be somewhat of a mutant.

This is rather true, I threw the apothecaries in there more out of expediency and lower word count which was the point of this exercise.

 

Also, just who convinced these different groups to forsake the oaths they took upon joining them and repaint their armour? That's something rarely done for marines. Even the Deathwatch leave a single pauldron in their chapters colours and heraldry so that they don't offend their armour's machine spirit.

The original version did go into more details about why they did it, but it flowed as well as a river of bricks in winter, as I said before, I tried to reduce the word count on something that I consider more akin to a minor tidbit then truly crucial detail about the chapter. As for dishonoring the armor, let's not forget that both Librarians and tech-marines still have part of their armor colored with the chapter's colors, those parts were most definitely not repainted.

 

Given that level of superstition among normal marines, what would a Techmarine say if you asked him to remove the dusty red of Mars' machine cult?

Well, if you read the rest of the article you'll that it drones on and on about how the Golden Defenders give less of a damn about superstition then a Commissar does about the life of a conscript and that they have nothing but loathing for the Adeptus Mechanicus. In the previous version of this section, the tech-marines came up wit the idea of abandoning the old colors.

 

And now for NightrawenII's

 

- I disagree here. They would still venerate or revere the Emperor and the Primarch for their deeds and achievements. The lack of diviny or distaste for divinity doesn't preclude you to honour someone. And most of the Chapters don't worship the Emperor as god or divine being.

- Also, the *ritual* is not tied to religious action.

True, but they do worship him and they also pray to him. Golden Defenders consider any form of religions faith as either useless or even dangerous. And it never belief section does state that the chapter still honors the Emperor, they just don't revere him as a holy ancestor or other such variations. The part about rituals is also true, but rituals are ties to superstition, something the Golden Defenders also look down on.

 

 

- I think thats the point of sending the Techmarines to Mars. ;)

Nobody said that the Golden Defenders don't have some fundamental disagreements with the Mechanicus. It's kind of the point of the whole section...

 

- Simple question: How? The Techmarines of PoO are still send and taught on the Mars. I know, they are of 2nd Founding, but we are 5,000 years in the future. Old ways are twisted and corrupted over time.

The answer is simple: Codex - Space Marines - page 70 top right paragraph: "Some, such as the Mentors, the Praetors of Orpheus and the Astral Knights, embrace the dwindling technologies of Mankind without superstition". I usually do my homework in such cases.

 

- May I suggest the *Astartes masters of Mercurial*?

I definitely can't disagree with you on that point!

 

- Well, I haven't heard about any underground movement amongs the Techmarines, so I would be wary of making up stuff.

There isn't one, the idea I was trying to convey is simple that some chapters showed solidarity with the Golden Defenders.

 

- As the side note, your sentences are damn too long. :P

But I like overly long sentences, they look so pretty!

 

- On the same note; Why would other Chapters risk the anger of Admech?

Because they're space marines and thus they know no fear! But on a more serious note, as I said before, it's more of a case of showing solidarity with a fellow chapter of space marines whom they saw as victims of an attempt to encroach on their independence, something most Astartes aren't very keen on. On a bigger picture, you could say that those chapters supported the Golden Defenders only to insure that a precedent wouldn't be set that would limit the autonomy of the Astartes even further. If things really got dicey they could have washed their hands of the whole deal and sent an apology to the Mechanicus and everything would have been back to normal.

 

- Yes, but they still revere him in some or other way.

Not so much, they honor him once a year but little more. You should think of the Golden Defenders as having a Pre-Heresy mindset, high on practicality and low on superstition.

 

Homeworld

Unsurprisingly, the chapter favors those who preach obedience to the Imperium, while those of a more fiery bent soon find themselves escorted off-planet.

Edit: Doh! Now I got it! It was a typo in the article. It's official, I'm as thick as you run of the mill brick!