Golden Defenders

[NightrawenII]

True, but they do worship him and they also pray to him. Golden Defenders consider any form of religions faith as either useless or even dangerous. And it never belief section does state that the chapter still honors the Emperor, they just don't revere him as a holy ancestor or other such variations. The part about rituals is also true, but rituals are ties to superstition, something the Golden Defenders also look down on.

To be brutaly honest, I think the problem stems from the fact that you actually don't understand the difference between the Divine and Ancestral worship. But my communication skills are in no way sufficient to explain this to you. ;)

So I'm going to agree on disagree.

 

Neverthless.

I think, the belief section is wanting. You are hammering your reader throught the IA with statements how they despise the Religion of all sorts, but you are avoiding the belief of GDs like Plague Marine is avoiding the bath. Therefore; What is the Golden Defenders belief? For what they fight? For what they strive and die? What they hold in great esteem? What are their ideals?

 

The answer is simple: Codex - Space Marines - page 70 top right paragraph: "Some, such as the Mentors, the Praetors of Orpheus and the Astral Knights, embrace the dwindling technologies of Mankind without superstition". I usually do my homework in such cases.

Good catch. I haven't seen that.

But let me throw this back at you. Why are the GDs so B&C, when others are just fine with Mechanicus superstition? It is odd that the Chapter has problems with Mechanicus, but is all silent and privy, when it comes to Ecclesiarchy.

 

Because they're space marines and thus they know no fear! But on a more serious note, as I said before, it's more of a case of showing solidarity with a fellow chapter of space marines whom they saw as victims of an attempt to encroach on their independence, something most Astartes aren't very keen on.

True, but your Chapter's belief is bordering on the blasphemy. I'm not sure if the others would be so keen with the help.

[Telveryon]

To be brutaly honest, I think the problem stems from the fact that you actually don't understand the difference between the Divine and Ancestral worship. But my communication skills are in no way sufficient to explain this to you. :lol:

So I'm going to agree on disagree.

While I can't that I've witnessed Ancestral worship first hand, I understand that there is a difference. But at the end of the day, the vast majority of Space Marines still pray to the Emperor, Chaplains hold sermons in his name and they utter phrases like "The Emperor protects!", that's by definition superstition and religious worship, be it divine or ancestra, it doesn't matter all that much, it's all bad in the Golden Defenders' eyes.

 

Neverthless.

I think, the belief section is wanting. You are hammering your reader throught the IA with statements how they despise the Religion of all sorts, but you are avoiding the belief of GDs like Plague Marine is avoiding the bath. Therefore; What is the Golden Defenders belief? For what they fight? For what they strive and die? What they hold in great esteem? What are their ideals?

The more I read it, the more I have to agree with you. I definitely could do a better job at convening their beliefs and ideals.

 

But let me throw this back at you. Why are the GDs so B&C, when others are just fine with Mechanicus superstition? It is odd that the Chapter has problems with Mechanicus, but is all silent and privy, when it comes to Ecclesiarchy.

Well, the Ecclesiarchy doesn't go imposing its views on space marines while the Mechanicus tends to do just that with the tech-marines thus the Golden Defenders' gripe with the Mechanicus stems from their gripe with superstitious faith. And the reason the chapter is all silent about it's less stellar impression of the Ecclesiarchy is because firstly if you go against the Church, allot more people are going to give you funny looks among whom there are fellows that have the right to wipe you out of existence and secondly, at the end of the day, the Golden Defenders score very high on the bastard meter and they're hypocrites to boot, just read the homeworld section, you'll see why.

 

True, but your Chapter's belief is bordering on the blasphemy. I'm not sure if the others would be so keen with the help.

Why are they're beliefs bordering on blasphemy? Space marines aren't required to worship the Emperor as a god so why should the worship the Omnissiah. Secondly, they way I envisioned the Golden Defenders getting those missives is by playing the victim card, think of this incident as something similar to what happened before the start of the Badab war, but with more level headed participants and the accused are actually right in their own way.

[NightrawenII]

Well, the Ecclesiarchy doesn't go imposing its views on space marines while the Mechanicus tends to do just that with the tech-marines thus the Golden Defenders' gripe with the Mechanicus stems from their gripe with superstitious faith. And the reason the chapter is all silent about it's less stellar impression of the Ecclesiarchy is because firstly if you go against the Church, allot more people are going to give you funny looks among whom there are fellows that have the right to wipe you out of existence and secondly, at the end of the day, the Golden Defenders score very high on the bastard meter and they're hypocrites to boot, just read the homeworld section, you'll see why.

If the Praetors of Orpheus, Mentors and Astral Knights are free of superstitious faith, then it means the Admech is no so stingy when it comes to faith.

And if your Chapter do understand that B&C about Ecclesiarchy gets them into problems then they should understand that messing with Mechanicus will have more immediate and serious feedback.

 

And actually, when I'm thinking about it, I found flaw in this:

This turn of events angered the Adeptus Mechanicus to no end and they resolved to bring the Chapter to its knees. Firstly, in from of an Inquisitorial conclave, they accused the Golden Defenders of breaching Adepts' rights as guardians of technology within the Imperium. As a counter, the Space Marines accused the Mechanicus of not fulfilling their duty as keepers of technology when they abandoned Mercurial and thus forfeiting any claim over the machined found on the planet as well as threatening their autonomy as Astartes, more over the Golden Defenders presented several missives form various chapters supporting their point of view. Caught between risking to anger the Adeptus Mechanicus on one hand and a possible Astartes rebellion on the other, the conclave found itself bogged down in endless debate.

This entire situation was caused by the Golden Defenders refusal to send their Techmarines to the Mars. By doing this the Chapter was clearly overstepping their mandate, breaking the rules and meddling into Admech territory.

 

Edit: The more I'm thinking about this situation the more it looks unfeasible to me:

This decision proved to be fateful as the Mechanicus refused to support or supply the Golden Defenders, recalling their adepts from Mercurial.

These guys value machines more than human live and you have them abandoning their precious technology. Unlikely.

 

Of the chapters that answered the Golden Defenders' plea for aid, the Praetors of Orpheus had the greatest impact.

Why would they do that? They aren't idiots, they will ask questions, where are the Cogboys and the like. I'm not sure if your Chapter could come up with some plausible explanation.

 

Why are they're beliefs bordering on blasphemy? Space marines aren't required to worship the Emperor as a god so why should the worship the Omnissiah. Secondly, they way I envisioned the Golden Defenders getting those missives is by playing the victim card, think of this incident as something similar to what happened before the start of the Badab war, but with more level headed participants and the accused are actually right in their own way.

Because:

... condemning all belief in a divine power to be foolish and the very concept of gods as false.

+

Though the chapter neither revere the Emperor nor offer any prayers in His name...

This *is* bordering on the blasphemy. All others at least see Emperor as *special* and offer their veneration to Him. Your Chapter don't do even that.

[Telveryon]

If the Praetors of Orpheus, Mentors and Astral Knights are free of superstitious faith, then it means the Admech is no so stingy when it comes to faith.

And if your Chapter do understand that B&C about Ecclesiarchy gets them into problems then they should understand that messing with Mechanicus will have more immediate and serious feedback.

Firstly, I would have to disagree with you on the fact that going against the Ecclesiarchy would have less serious consequences. Shouting at the top of your lungs that the Emperor is not a god and that the Eccesiarchy is the root of all evil is one of, if not the, surest ways to get your rear end served to you on a silver platter.

 

Secondly, nowhere does it say the Praetors and the other are free of faith, just of superstition of technology. And even if they are, they might get away with it by playing with the Mechanicus out of convenience, which is not a point in my favor. But... While it doesn't explicitly state in the text, the scrapes with the Mechanicus started not long after age of Apostasy when the Golden Defenders were a less pragmatical and a little more passionate about their views.

 

The way I see the initial refusal to send tech-marines to Mars of the chapter is more along the lines of a political tantrum then an actual attempt to undermine the Mechanicus. At the end of the day, if the Mechanicus weren't late by about a thousand years, the Golden Defenders might have ended up playing ball just like the Preators, but after seeing their own homeworld nearly destroyed can you blame them for hating the Mechanicus?

 

And actually, when I'm thinking about it, I found flaw in this:

This turn of events angered the Adeptus Mechanicus to no end and they resolved to bring the Chapter to its knees. Firstly, in from of an Inquisitorial conclave, they accused the Golden Defenders of breaching Adepts' rights as guardians of technology within the Imperium. As a counter, the Space Marines accused the Mechanicus of not fulfilling their duty as keepers of technology when they abandoned Mercurial and thus forfeiting any claim over the machined found on the planet as well as threatening their autonomy as Astartes, more over the Golden Defenders presented several missives form various chapters supporting their point of view. Caught between risking to anger the Adeptus Mechanicus on one hand and a possible Astartes rebellion on the other, the conclave found itself bogged down in endless debate.

This entire situation was caused by the Golden Defenders refusal to send their Techmarines to the Mars. By doing this the Chapter was clearly overstepping their mandate, breaking the rules and meddling into Admech territory.

True, the Golden Defenders did start this whole mess, that's one of the main ideas, I don't wish to portray them and completely blameless. But, by mistake, the Mechanicus' reaction was vastly out of proportion. What they intended was to give the chapter a slap on the wrist to get them to play ball, but they ended up throwing them off a cliff. The problem is the Golden Defenders learned to fly. Neither side no longer cares why the mess started, each has it's own grievances with the other.

 

These guys value machines more than human live and you have them abandoning their precious technology. Unlikely.

Out of context, it is indeed very unlikely. But I have to point out that the Mechianicus didn't expect to be gone for more then a year or two at the most, I wouldn't consider that abandonment. Also, the machines on Mercurial aren't exactly irreplaceable examples of archotech, they're more along the lines of tractor factories, irrigation pump as power stations.

 

Why would they do that? They aren't idiots, they will ask questions, where are the Cogboys and the like. I'm not sure if your Chapter could come up with some plausible explanation.

My question is, why wouldn't they? At the end of the day the Adeptus Astartes are a faction within the Imperium, more fractured them most, but still a faction. It takes considerable amount of humility for a chapter to ask another chapter for aid thus I doubt the aider would request all that much detail about the reasons for the request. But even so, I'd say the victim card would still work or even outright lies.

 

Because:

... condemning all belief in a divine power to be foolish and the very concept of gods as false.

+

Though the chapter neither revere the Emperor nor offer any prayers in His name...

This *is* bordering on the blasphemy. All others at least see Emperor as *special* and offer their veneration to Him. Your Chapter don't do even that.

True, but they don't trumpet those facts precisely so they do not antagonize other factions such as the Inquisition or other Astartes. When confronted with a religious matter they don't go on a rant about how it's leading Humanity to destruction, but rather try their utmost to dodge the issue.

[NightrawenII]

Secondly, nowhere does it say the Praetors and the other are free of faith, just of superstition of technology. And even if they are, they might get away with it by playing with the Mechanicus out of convenience, which is not a point in my favor. But... While it doesn't explicitly state in the text, the scrapes with the Mechanicus started not long after age of Apostasy when the Golden Defenders were a less pragmatical and a little more passionate about their views.

Techmarines are priests of Omnissiah, the Machine-God. If they don't treat technology with superstition, then it means there is some problem with their belief. Another point to be made. The Techmarines are already pariahs within the Chapter, it's not far fetched for your Chapter to simply don't mind them.

 

The way I see the initial refusal to send tech-marines to Mars of the chapter is more along the lines of a political tantrum then an actual attempt to undermine the Mechanicus.

Maybe you or Golden Defenders, but for Mechanicus it's insult and serious attempt to challenge their position of Keepers of Technology. The GDs will be called techno-heretics and dealt with, by any means available.

 

True, the Golden Defenders did start this whole mess, that's one of the main ideas, I don't wish to portray them and completely blameless. But, by mistake, the Mechanicus' reaction was vastly out of proportion. What they intended was to give the chapter a slap on the wrist to get them to play ball, but they ended up throwing them off a cliff. The problem is the Golden Defenders learned to fly. Neither side no longer cares why the mess started, each has it's own grievances with the other.

But the Golden Defenders are breaking the law so ancient, that it falls over its white beard. All Chapters send the Techmarines to the Mars, your Chapter refused to do that. Everyone sees that, even the Inquistion and there will be repression for that. The Admech has Monopoly on the technology due to the agreement between them and Emperor. And that's the end man. None in the whole Imperium can go against the Word of Emperor.

 

Out of context, it is indeed very unlikely. But I have to point out that the Mechianicus didn't expect to be gone for more then a year or two at the most, I wouldn't consider that abandonment. Also, the machines on Mercurial aren't exactly irreplaceable examples of archotech, they're more along the lines of tractor factories, irrigation pump as power stations.

Irrelevant.

These guys venerate and worship the machines. It doesn't matter if it's mechanical-spoon or STC. All machines are children of Omnissiah, their Machine-God. And you have them leave these in the hands of pagans, just to punish your Chapter. Why would they do that? The abandoning of their machines is very very radical action, it would be somewhat plausible in the direst of situtations, which is not this case. They could just go to the nearest Inquistion office or worse to the nearest Astartes Chapter and tell them. Not to mention the Fabricator-General of Mars *is* High Lord of Terra.

 

My question is, why wouldn't they? At the end of the day the Adeptus Astartes are a faction within the Imperium, more fractured them most, but still a faction. It takes considerable amount of humility for a chapter to ask another chapter for aid thus I doubt the aider would request all that much detail about the reasons for the request. But even so, I'd say the victim card would still work or even outright lies.

Because they are not obliged in the slightest and are not idiots. The Golden Defenders, a Chapter with dubious belief is dragging them in their own petty fight with Mechanicus. No matter how much your Chapter want play the victim card, they are wrong from the beginning and they will be beaten into submission.

 

thus I doubt the aider would request all that much detail about the reasons for the request.

:lol:

"Help, our machines are falling apart!"

"Why are you asking us? That's job of Cogboys not us."

[Grey Hunter Ydalir]

Maybe you or Golden Defenders, but for Mechanicus it's insult and serious attempt to challenge their position of Keepers of Technology. The GDs will be called techno-heretics and dealt with, by any means available.

 

Agreed and....

 

Because they are not obliged in the slightest and are not idiots. The Golden Defenders, a Chapter with dubious belief is dragging them in their own petty fight with Mechanicus. No matter how much your Chapter want play the victim card, they are wrong from the beginning and they will be beaten into submission.

 

... agreed again.

 

At the end of the day the Adeptus Astartes are a faction within the Imperium, more fractured them most, but still a faction

 

Actually, the Mechanicus are a major player and while they may not possess the sheer wealth of manpower that the larger Imperium possesses, they are virtually a clear partner to the Imperium, rather than a faction within it.

 

Not only that but they have an almost complete monopoly on the production and maintenance of technology that humanity has left. No new ships, no weapons, no munitions for those already produced. No maintenance for vehicles or ships, no nothing. The Imperium would fall apart without the Mechanicus and they know it.

 

Alongside this trump card is the fact that the Mechanicus has it's own fleets and armies that rival the Imperial Navy and Imperial Guard in power and strength, if not quite numbers. But then, numbers are totally moot when you control the flow of technology and production anyway.

 

Technological Heresy is every bit as important as any other kind due to both the political influence and cultural bleed over of the Mechanicus' beliefs.

 

So, after all this, what in the world does your chapter really have in mind when they start poking a sleeping giant like the Mechanicus? The Mechanicus would see the threat for what it is. The twin dangers of someone actually managing to survive without depending on them and their own theological issues with your lack of reverence of the Omnissiah.

 

Then they would pull strings with the Inquisition and the rest of the Imperium to have these upstarts put down before they become a problem.

 

In the end I think you'd be better to leave well enough alone here.

[Telveryon]

Techmarines are priests of Omnissiah, the Machine-God. If they don't treat technology with superstition, then it means there is some problem with their belief.

Maybe, but it's and official chapter, what they believe and what they do is not for me to say, but for GW. As long as it's official abd hasn't been reconned I'm going to use it.

 

The Techmarines are already pariahs within the Chapter, it's not far fetched for your Chapter to simply don't mind them.

It's also not far fetched for a chapter to object when its members are being forced to worship something they don't wish to worship. The Ecclersiarchy can't for Space Marines to view the Emperor as a god, so why would the Mechanicus have that prerogative?

 

Maybe you or Golden Defenders, but for Mechanicus it's insult and serious attempt to challenge their position of Keepers of Technology. The GDs will be called techno-heretics and dealt with, by any means available.

An insult it is most definitely and maybe even a challenge to their position(seriousness of it is debatable), but techno-heretics most definitely not. To be a techno-heretic heretic one must either disrespect machine, invent new machines or alter them without the consent of the Mechanicus. Golden Defenders have done none of those. Come to think of it, the Blood Angels, the Black Templars and Fore Lords are closer to being tech-heretics then the Golden Defenders ever were.

 

But the Golden Defenders are breaking the law so ancient, that it falls over its white beard. All Chapters send the Techmarines to the Mars, your Chapter refused to do that. Everyone sees that, even the Inquistion and there will be repression for that. The Admech has Monopoly on the technology due to the agreement between them and Emperor. And that's the end man. None in the whole Imperium can go against the Word of Emperor.

Actually, this is were you are wrong. The sending of tech-marines to Mars isn't enforced by any Imperial law but rather by a pact between each individual chapter and the Mechanicus, and thus no other imperial institution has any business in interfering should the pact be broken. In exchange for supplies, the Mechanicus gets to keep a symbolic control over the chapter's assets. Thus the Golden Defenders cannot be accused of breaking any laws, just of welshing on a pact. And I would also like to point out that the Ad Mech's monopoly over technology has be broken once or twice before, such as the Blood Angels withholding actual schematics from them.

 

Irrelevant.

These guys venerate and worship the machines. It doesn't matter if it's mechanical-spoon or STC. All machines are children of Omnissiah, their Machine-God. And you have them leave these in the hands of pagans, just to punish your Chapter. Why would they do that? The abandoning of their machines is very very radical action, it would be somewhat plausible in the direst of situtations, which is not this case. They could just go to the nearest Inquistion office or worse to the nearest Astartes Chapter and tell them. Not to mention the Fabricator-General of Mars *is* High Lord of Terra.

I will grant you that this part could use a bit of polish. I think I have an idea that might be less controversial (if only marginally). But I'm definitely not dropping the concept.

 

Because they are not obliged in the slightest and are not idiots. The Golden Defenders, a Chapter with dubious belief is dragging them in their own petty fight with Mechanicus. No matter how much your Chapter want play the victim card, they are wrong from the beginning and they will be beaten into submission.

Official fluff disagrees with you on this point as well. I would like to point you again at the Badab War incident when several chapters sided with the Astral Claws against the rest of the Imperium and even other Astartes, which makes the point even more poignant, because they though the Claws had been wronged. While the Golden Defenders aren't completely right, their not exactly completely wrong either, definitely not on the Astral Claws' level,

 

:)

"Help, our machines are falling apart!"

"Why are you asking us? That's job of Cogboys not us."

"Because it's the Cogboy's bloody fault!"

 

Actually, the Mechanicus are a major player and while they may not possess the sheer wealth of manpower that the larger Imperium possesses, they are virtually a clear partner to the Imperium, rather than a faction within it.

 

Not only that but they have an almost complete monopoly on the production and maintenance of technology that humanity has left. No new ships, no weapons, no munitions for those already produced. No maintenance for vehicles or ships, no nothing. The Imperium would fall apart without the Mechanicus and they know it.

 

Alongside this trump card is the fact that the Mechanicus has it's own fleets and armies that rival the Imperial Navy and Imperial Guard in power and strength, if not quite numbers. But then, numbers are totally moot when you control the flow of technology and production anyway.

 

Technological Heresy is every bit as important as any other kind due to both the political influence and cultural bleed over of the Mechanicus' beliefs.

Firstly, I would like to point out that the Adeptus Astartes are pretty much in a similar situation. They have their own armies, their own fleets, their own planets and their own beliefs. Secondly, while the Mechianicus have considerable autonomy they're far from independent. While the rest of the Imperium depends on the Mechanicus to build and maintain it's machines, the Mechanicus depends on the Imperium to supply it with food and materials.

 

So, after all this, what in the world does your chapter really have in mind when they start poking a sleeping giant like the Mechanicus? The Mechanicus would see the threat for what it is. The twin dangers of someone actually managing to survive without depending on them and their own theological issues with your lack of reverence of the Omnissiah.

Maintaining their beliefs is what the chapter has in mind, it's what the Adeputs Astartes have been doing for practically millenia, poking sleeping giants because of what they believe.

 

Then they would pull strings with the Inquisition and the rest of the Imperium to have these upstarts put down before they become a problem.

And they did try it with the Inquisition, the problem is it backfired on them as the Inquisition and the Golden Defenders became allies.

 

In the end I think you'd be better to leave well enough alone here.

I don't like the Mechanicus and thus the chapter closest to my hard won't like them, I consider the idea far too cool to drop!

[Captain Juan Juarez]

The Techmarines are already pariahs within the Chapter, it's not far fetched for your Chapter to simply don't mind them.

It's also not far fetched for a chapter to object when its members are being forced to worship something they don't wish to worship. The Ecclersiarchy can't for Space Marines to view the Emperor as a god, so why would the Mechanicus have that prerogative?

 

Who hasn't, at one point, paid lip-service to something or someone to get what they want?

 

Because they are not obliged in the slightest and are not idiots. The Golden Defenders, a Chapter with dubious belief is dragging them in their own petty fight with Mechanicus. No matter how much your Chapter want play the victim card, they are wrong from the beginning and they will be beaten into submission.

Official fluff disagrees with you on this point as well. I would like to point you again at the Badab War incident when several chapters sided with the Astral Claws against the rest of the Imperium and even other Astartes, which makes the point even more poignant, because they though the Claws had been wronged. While the Golden Defenders aren't completely right, their not exactly completely wrong either, definitely not on the Astral Claws' level.

 

The Astral Claws entire actions hinged on Lufgt Huron though.

 

So, after all this, what in the world does your chapter really have in mind when they start poking a sleeping giant like the Mechanicus? The Mechanicus would see the threat for what it is. The twin dangers of someone actually managing to survive without depending on them and their own theological issues with your lack of reverence of the Omnissiah.

Maintaining their beliefs is what the chapter has in mind, it's what the Adeputs Astartes have been doing for practically millenia, poking sleeping giants because of what they believe.

 

It isn't poking a sleeping giant, it's the nature of their agreement with the Ecclesiarchy; you don't spout anything that could be deemed heretical and we will leave you and your worlds alone.

[Telveryon]

Who hasn't, at one point, paid lip-service to something or someone to get what they want?

As I said before, if it hadn't been for the Mechanicus screw up, this is the road the Golden Defenders would have mot likely taken

 

The Astral Claws entire actions hinged on Lufgt Huron though.

While I admit I'm yest to read Forgeword's take on the Badab war, at the end of they day Huron did manage to get several other chapters to agree with his side of the story despite being in the wrong. It's not far fetched to believe that other chapters might be able to do something similar when their not completely wrong.

 

It isn't poking a sleeping giant, it's the nature of their agreement with the Ecclesiarchy; you don't spout anything that could be deemed heretical and we will leave you and your worlds alone.

True, but there are times when that agreement is put under sever test, thus resulting in the poking of the sleeping giant.

[Captain Juan Juarez]

Apart from the Lufgt Huron point, I was actually backing up your arguments mostly :(

 

I disagree regarding the Tyrant though, I think he was quite simply one of a kind and depending on when your IA is set, Chapters would be far from willing to follow them down a path already tread for ill.

[Telveryon]

Apart from the Lufgt Huron point, I was actually backing up your arguments mostly :(

And "ops" and a thank you for support. It good to see that at least someone doesn't disagree with me!

 

I disagree regarding the Tyrant though, I think he was quite simply one of a kind and depending on when your IA is set, Chapters would be far from willing to follow them down a path already tread for ill.

The incidents where the Golden Defenders had support from other chapters took pace from late M36 - early M37 to late M37 - early M38. So that's at least three millenia before Huron managed to sour things up like he did.

[Captain Juan Juarez]

I disagree regarding the Tyrant though, I think he was quite simply one of a kind and depending on when your IA is set, Chapters would be far from willing to follow them down a path already tread for ill.

The incidents where the Golden Defenders had support from other chapters took pace from late M36 - early M37 to late M37 - early M38. So that's at least three millenia before Huron managed to sour things up like he did.

 

Which kills me dead like a Glister on a Turbul.

[Telveryon]

I will grant you that this part could use a bit of polish. I think I have an idea that might be less controversial (if only marginally). But I'm definitely not dropping the concept.

After musing on this idea for about an hour, I've dropped the marginal part... Here's the gist of the new reason why the Golden Defenders and the Mechanicus are at each other's throat.

• Tensions arise between the Golden Defenders and the Ad Mech over the divinity of the Omnissiah.
  
• The Ad Mech try to browbeat the GD into submission by refusing to supply them, the GD respond by refusing to sent their Tech-marines for training on Mars and try their best to go on with what they have on hand
  
• The Ad Mech stumble on a rumor that said that there might be an STC under buried beneath the GD's Fortress Monastery. They ask the GD to allow them to investigate the rumor. Being low on supplies, the GD use this as a bargaining chip to get the Ad Mech to agree to disagree on the divinity of the Omnissiah and resume supplying the GD with when they need.
  
• A mistake during the Ad Mech's search ends up collapsing a part of the GD's Fortress Monastery, the GD refuse to cooperate any longer
  
• The Ad Mech try to browbeat the chapter again by stopping supplies and accusing them of having corrupt gene-seed and missing tithes, the GD manage to refute the accusations and start having good relations with the local Inquisitorial Conclave.
  
• Their previous attempt backfiring on them, the Ad Mech stop all the facilities they are responsible for on Mercurial and threaten to dismantle and remove them. The GD respond by claim all the facilities as direct property of the Chapter and exile the Ad Mech adepts.
  
• Pissed off in a most righteous fashion, the Ad Mech prepare to attack the GD. Through their inquisitorial connections the GD catch word that the Ad Mech are brewing something nasty and manage to get the backing of several chapters and a few Inquisitors. Faced with such opposition, the Ad Mech back down rather then face the possibility of an civil war withing the Imperium and they find other, more promising STC location rumors to follow.
  
• The GD can't keep their homeworld running so they as for their fellow space marines' help (essentially the whole Praetors of Orpheus bit)
  
• (This bit is optional) After a while, with other better rumors of STC exhausted the Ad Mech return to the GD with an olive branch, expecting to save the GD what they believe is a state of near collapse. When they find the GD doing a-okay and have their offers rebuffed, the get angry again and accuse the GD of infringing on their Tech monopoly. THe GD counter by accusing the Ad Mech of infringing on their autonomy and point out that they aren't technically breaking any laws as all the facilities are the direct property of the chapter, which are allow to maintain their own forges and that at the end of the day, it's all the Ad Mech's fault.
  

Ho boy... If this is the gist of my idea, I wonder how long will it be in the article proper...

 

Anyway, is the chain of events more plausible then the current one?

 

Which kills me dead like a Glister on a Turbul.

Call me an old fashioned berk, but that went straight over my head...

[Ace Debonair]

Ho boy... If this is the gist of my idea, I wonder how long will it be in the article proper...

 

Anyway, is the chain of events more plausible then the current one?

 

It seems pretty sensible, although I was under the impression that only the AdMech had the know-how for building Astartes tanks and similar.

That said, I suppose if your techmarines were bright enough, they could eventually reproduce the neccesary forges and factories.

 

And I suppose you could just make mention of the GD being very careful with their vehicles, becasue replacing them is a bit harder than it would be for other chapters. :P

[Captain Juan Juarez]

I will grant you that this part could use a bit of polish. I think I have an idea that might be less controversial (if only marginally). But I'm definitely not dropping the concept.

After musing on this idea for about an hour, I've dropped the marginal part... Here's the gist of the new reason why the Golden Defenders and the Mechanicus are at each other's throat.

• Tensions arise between the Golden Defenders and the Ad Mech over the divinity of the Omnissiah.
  
• The Ad Mech try to browbeat the GD into submission by refusing to supply them, the GD respond by refusing to sent their Tech-marines for training on Mars and try their best to go on with what they have on hand
  
• The Ad Mech stumble on a rumor that said that there might be an STC under buried beneath the GD's Fortress Monastery. They ask the GD to allow them to investigate the rumor. Being low on supplies, the GD use this as a bargaining chip to get the Ad Mech to agree to disagree on the divinity of the Omnissiah and resume supplying the GD with when they need.
  
• A mistake during the Ad Mech's search ends up collapsing a part of the GD's Fortress Monastery, the GD refuse to cooperate any longer
  
• The Ad Mech try to browbeat the chapter again by stopping supplies and accusing them of having corrupt gene-seed and missing tithes, the GD manage to refute the accusations and start having good relations with the local Inquisitorial Conclave.
  
• Their previous attempt backfiring on them, the Ad Mech stop all the facilities they are responsible for on Mercurial and threaten to dismantle and remove them. The GD respond by claim all the facilities as direct property of the Chapter and exile the Ad Mech adepts.
  
• Pissed off in a most righteous fashion, the Ad Mech prepare to attack the GD. Through their inquisitorial connections the GD catch word that the Ad Mech are brewing something nasty and manage to get the backing of several chapters and a few Inquisitors. Faced with such opposition, the Ad Mech back down rather then face the possibility of an civil war withing the Imperium and they find other, more promising STC location rumors to follow.
  
• The GD can't keep their homeworld running so they as for their fellow space marines' help (essentially the whole Praetors of Orpheus bit)
  
• (This bit is optional) After a while, with other better rumors of STC exhausted the Ad Mech return to the GD with an olive branch, expecting to save the GD what they believe is a state of near collapse. When they find the GD doing a-okay and have their offers rebuffed, the get angry again and accuse the GD of infringing on their Tech monopoly. THe GD counter by accusing the Ad Mech of infringing on their autonomy and point out that they aren't technically breaking any laws as all the facilities are the direct property of the chapter, which are allow to maintain their own forges and that at the end of the day, it's all the Ad Mech's fault.
  

Ho boy... If this is the gist of my idea, I wonder how long will it be in the article proper...

 

Anyway, is the chain of events more plausible then the current one?

 

Plausible, but you need to make sure that you reference only that it's a faction of the AdMech locally rather than the whole organisation.

 

Which kills me dead like a Glister on a Turbul.

Call me an old fashioned berk, but that went straight over my head...

 

I've been reading some Neil Asher stuff lately - The Skinner and The Voayge of Sable Keech - and they are aquatic creatures on the world of Spatterjay :P

[NightrawenII]

It's also not far fetched for a chapter to object when its members are being forced to worship something they don't wish to worship. The Ecclersiarchy can't for Space Marines to view the Emperor as a god, so why would the Mechanicus have that prerogative?

Because the Admech is supplying you with all your needs. There is no such two-sided trade with Ecclesiarchy, your marines are doing something colossally stupid.

 

An insult it is most definitely and maybe even a challenge to their position(seriousness of it is debatable), but techno-heretics most definitely not. To be a techno-heretic heretic one must either disrespect machine, invent new machines or alter them without the consent of the Mechanicus. Golden Defenders have done none of those. Come to think of it, the Blood Angels, the Black Templars and Fore Lords are closer to being tech-heretics then the Golden Defenders ever were.

Your Chapter defy the divinity of Omnissiah, refuse to send its Techmarines to be taught in the proper ways of the Priesthood of Mars. It *is* heresy by default.

 

Actually, this is were you are wrong. The sending of tech-marines to Mars isn't enforced by any Imperial law but rather by a pact between each individual chapter and the Mechanicus, and thus no other imperial institution has any business in interfering should the pact be broken.

Ancient pacts sworn between the Adeptus Mechanicus and the Adeptus Astartes allow the Space Marines to send a proportion of their warriors to Mars to train with the Adeptus Mechanicus and begin the long, arduous journey of becoming a priest of the Machine God. Without the passing on of such revered knowledge, the fate of the Space Marines would be sealed, for only by such means may the weapons and wargear of the Adeptus Astartes be maintained. The role of the Techmarine is to minister to the spirits of the machines in the care of their Chapter, the weapons, the armour and all the equipment in daily use by the Space Marines.

~ Index Astartes.

 

And by your reasoning, the Admech could sent its Titan and Skitarii legions to beat the crap out of your Chapter and none could argue against it, because it's dispute between your Chapter and Admech, right?

 

In exchange for supplies, the Mechanicus gets to keep a symbolic control over the chapter's assets. Thus the Golden Defenders cannot be accused of breaking any laws, just of welshing on a pact.

Wrong.

The Techmarines are send to Mars and taught in the ways of Mechanicus, so the ancient pact between the Emperor and Admech can be kept intact. Thanks to this the Techmarines are technically techpriests (pun intended) and therefore the Mechanicus holds *all* technology under its control.

 

And I would also like to point out that the Ad Mech's monopoly over technology has be broken once or twice before, such as the Blood Angels withholding actual schematics from them.

Two words: Matt Ward.

 

Official fluff disagrees with you on this point as well. I would like to point you again at the Badab War incident when several chapters sided with the Astral Claws against the rest of the Imperium and even other Astartes, which makes the point even more poignant, because they though the Claws had been wronged. While the Golden Defenders aren't completely right, their not exactly completely wrong either, definitely not on the Astral Claws' level,

That's because of Lufgt Huron and the fact there were bonds between these Chapters. Just look what happened to the Steel Cobras.

 

Firstly, I would like to point out that the Adeptus Astartes are pretty much in a similar situation. They have their own armies, their own fleets, their own planets and their own beliefs. Secondly, while the Mechianicus have considerable autonomy they're far from independent. While the rest of the Imperium depends on the Mechanicus to build and maintain it's machines, the Mechanicus depends on the Imperium to supply it with food and materials.

Yes, it is symbiosis beneficial for both sides of the trade. Your Chapter is just making uproar because of their selfish wishes. They will be sacrificed on the Altar of the Balance.

 

Maintaining their beliefs is what the chapter has in mind, it's what the Adeputs Astartes have been doing for practically millenia, poking sleeping giants because of what they believe.

And their fate was what again? I heard there was that Chapter called Celestial Lions....

 

I don't like the Mechanicus and thus the chapter closest to my hard won't like them, I consider the idea far too cool to drop!

May this story enlighten you...

 

I will look up the new version, but right now I'm tired and running out of time.

[Grey Hunter Ydalir]

I don't understand why you don't just have your chapter 'fooling' the mechanicus. When your marines return from mars, any that show a hint of over-indoctrination to their faith is wiped and returned to the ranks. A new marine is chosen to go to mars and so on until they have a section of their own cogboys who are less than fanatical about the Omnissiah and all that jazz.

 

Lip service, as mentioned before, is fair game. If your chapter doesn't like the Mechanicus that's fine, they don't have to hamstring themselves because of it though. Doing so feels wrong, it feels like it's taking more from our reality than theirs.

 

Their reality is thus: The Mechanicus produce and supply everything a chapter relies upon, and the Astartes rely on the Mechanicus far more than most other military bodies in the Imperium. Pissing off this most important of suppliers is not a good thing. Recruits they can get on their own, other supplies they can also get on their own.

 

Ships, vehicles, power armour and munitions, not so much. While they can supply themselves to a limited degree eventually they will not be in a good position.

 

Dislike them as much as you want, however, that shouldn't stop you using them either.

[Octavulg]

Actually, IA9 says that Chapters do produce a lot of their own stuff. So the Ad Mech aren't entirely necessary after a certain point.

 

That said, I can't imagine they aren't seriously helpful.