Julgolax Posted June 23, 2008 Share Posted June 23, 2008 The Black legion is the largest and most widely concentrated force of chaos space marines in the galaxy. It is ruled by the Archaeon of WH40K; Abbaddon the Despoiler, he who is the oldest surviving member of the Luna Wolves Legion, champion of champions, and one of the most powerful warlords in the WH40K table top game. He commands litterally all of chaos; the four powers that is, and can probably ascend to daemon hood at the clink of his power claw. There is nothing that the Black Legion alone, when coordinated and conscentrated enough cannot destroy, capture, or convert to chaos. Even the brother legions of old, the Word Bearers, Night Lords, Alpha Legion, Iron Warriors, World Eaters, Emperors' Children, Death Guard, and Thousand Sons cannot truely surpass the Black Legion in overall strength. But... There is something ary within these massive, epic ranks of chaos warriors. Renegades. Now, many renegades who do not become subsumed into the ranks of the Black Legion remain as a squad, company, or chapter of seperate renegades who have their own personal goals. They usually never to rarely come in contact with true legionnairs and continue on their defiling operations in their own sectors. The problem that comes to mind is contained with in the new recruits of the legion itself. It is utterly impossible, Tzeentch knows, for ther to have NOT been a warrior, group of warriors, or even a rival daemon prince who covets the title of warmaster so fiercely to challenge the Despoiler himself to a duel for ownership of everything. When a renegade warlord, overly ambitious recruit, or long held rival of Abbaddon comes to force himself upon the black throne of chaos, a duel between titans takes place but, my question is this... When Abbaddon is threatened, his power is threatened, his command, his honor, everything he has is threatened, what about him can keep him so safe and alive after these power struggles? How is it a Daemon Prince, the Daemon Primarchs, or even lowly lords/sorceror-lords havent mustered enough power to destroy Abbaddon and take his place as lord of chaos, master of legions, and the most favored of favored champions of the gods? Surely even the mighty Abbaddon can be killed (FLUFF-WISE) because he not only isnt a daemon prince immortal but also there ARE obviously powers out there that can kill him easily; just look up at that Imperitor's foot :( Can anyone explain? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/139235-black-legion-and-renegades/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
chillin Posted June 23, 2008 Share Posted June 23, 2008 The Black legion is the largest and most widely concentrated force of chaos space marines in the galaxy. It is ruled by the Archaeon of WH40K; Abbaddon the Despoiler, he who is the oldest surviving member of the Luna Wolves Legion, champion of champions, and one of the most powerful warlords in the WH40K table top game. He commands litterally all of chaos; the four powers that is, and can probably ascend to daemon hood at the clink of his power claw. There is nothing that the Black Legion alone, when coordinated and conscentrated enough cannot destroy, capture, or convert to chaos. Even the brother legions of old, the Word Bearers, Night Lords, Alpha Legion, Iron Warriors, World Eaters, Emperors' Children, Death Guard, and Thousand Sons cannot truely surpass the Black Legion in overall strength. - I think you've answered your own Q in your own 1st paragraph.I'm sure Abbaddon has been challenged many times by those foolish enough, but he has always come out on top, either by killing them himself, ordering them killed, subterfuge, or with the help of 1 or more of the chaos gods. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/139235-black-legion-and-renegades/#findComment-1607888 Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheDarkApostle Posted June 23, 2008 Share Posted June 23, 2008 All I know is that in the case of Lorgar and the Word Bearers, Lorgar was shown by the Gods that is was to be Horus, and not himself, who was to lead the tide of Chaos against the Imperium of Man, and faithfully Lorgar then stepped down accepting their choice. Now the Gods have chosen Abbadon instead, as we know for a fact, and no doubt Lorgar still stay submissive since it's the Gods who have chosen him to be the over all leader. Now about the other Primarchs, Angron is banished, but no doubt he cares little for who that is in charge of the rest of the lot as long as himself and his berserkers can kill everything in sight in the name of the Blood God. Perturabo cared much for Horus, and most likely has accepted Abbadon as the one to succeed him. And as such won't rise against him, maybe because of respect for Horus who made it pretty clear that Abbadon would be the one to succeed him. Magnus only cares about mastering the warp. Nothing else interests him. Night Haunter is dead, dead, dead. He doesn't care. Alpharius is a question mark. Some say he's dead, some say he's not. In light of Legion I don't know what to believe. But even if he's still around I don't think he generally cares about it. The Alpha Legion always operated independently from all other legions so most likely don't care about them at all. () Mortarion care little for anything besides ruleing from his plague planet and sending out the odd plague storm every now a then as I've got it. And Fulgrim, in light of the book with the same name, is nuts and possessed. In other words he don't really care either, and if Fulgrim (the book) is to be considered rubbish and ignored, then it can be assumed that he's far to busy to try to archieve perfection / the perfect extasy / whatever in the name of Slaanesh as he is doomed to, partly because of his flawed mentality, partly because of the ironical happening of becoming the servant of Slaanesh. And Horus is dead, dead, DEAD, so that concludes all of the 9 traitor Primarch. Just my oppinion anyway. TDA Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/139235-black-legion-and-renegades/#findComment-1607979 Share on other sites More sharing options...
feuer_faust Posted June 25, 2008 Share Posted June 25, 2008 I think Abadon has stayed alive simply becuase that's how powerful he is (it could be fighting off punk lords like that makes him how he is..!). Of course some lord somewhere's going to get cocksure, and go after Abby. He may even do pretty well until the showdown. I'm just betting that between his legion of faithful marines, his planet-killer ship and blackstone fortresses, and his own martial prowess that Abadon out-fights or out-wits potential usurpers when the occasion arises. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/139235-black-legion-and-renegades/#findComment-1609617 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Nihm Posted June 26, 2008 Share Posted June 26, 2008 Abaddon is favoured by all the major Chaos gods, who would want to risk their (and his) wrath? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/139235-black-legion-and-renegades/#findComment-1610554 Share on other sites More sharing options...
whitebeardixon Posted June 29, 2008 Share Posted June 29, 2008 maybe abaddon has an aura about him because he is so close to ascending but for some reason has decided not to. the warsmith in storms of iron had an aura that made his own men fear when he was close to ascending to daemonhood Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/139235-black-legion-and-renegades/#findComment-1613119 Share on other sites More sharing options...
feuer_faust Posted June 29, 2008 Share Posted June 29, 2008 Abaddon is favoured by all the major Chaos gods, who would want to risk their (and his) wrath? True. Although, one could could say that having the brass to openly defy something like that is the kind of material the Chaos Gods want most of the time. :) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/139235-black-legion-and-renegades/#findComment-1613639 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Nihm Posted June 30, 2008 Share Posted June 30, 2008 Abaddon is favoured by all the major Chaos gods, who would want to risk their (and his) wrath? True. Although, one could could say that having the brass to openly defy something like that is the kind of material the Chaos Gods want most of the time. :D Indeed, and I guess that's why Abaddon is so paranoid. ;)No servant may look him in the eye, he frequently changes location within his own fleet, rumours of him using body doubles (old WD article?) and of course his Chosen, etc. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/139235-black-legion-and-renegades/#findComment-1614182 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Magnus Thane Posted July 31, 2008 Share Posted July 31, 2008 Well he's chosen by the Four Gods of Chaos for a higher purpose. I doubt they'll let him die until he has done what needs to be done. And so far he has never truly failed them. (or so it seems) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/139235-black-legion-and-renegades/#findComment-1649046 Share on other sites More sharing options...
nuclear.anxiety Posted February 7, 2009 Share Posted February 7, 2009 i'd imagine he'd be rather arrogant- i don't see him using doubles or hiding. Paranoid, yes, but i could imagine there being sorcerers, and the like watching out for his well being. he'd have huge confidence knowing he was being looked out for and that he could crush 99% of all rivals. And, he probably wouldn't ascend to demonhood, until he had was or had the power of a god. At least, that's what i'd be waiting for if i were in his position... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/139235-black-legion-and-renegades/#findComment-1873642 Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheDarkApostle Posted February 7, 2009 Share Posted February 7, 2009 i'd imagine he'd be rather arrogant- i don't see him using doubles or hiding. Paranoid, yes, but i could imagine there being sorcerers, and the like watching out for his well being. he'd have huge confidence knowing he was being looked out for and that he could crush 99% of all rivals. And, he probably wouldn't ascend to demonhood, until he had was or had the power of a god. At least, that's what i'd be waiting for if i were in his position... Ouch, old topic ^_^ Regarding Abbadon not yet ascending to Daemonhood the answer actually is simple. Horus. Yes, it's because of Horus he haven't done it. Horus never ascended Daemonhood and that's the reason Abbadon hasn't either. He simply doesn't want to "cheat" by becoming a Deamon but would rather prove that he is better than Horus by doing it while still remaining as a "mortal". TDA Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/139235-black-legion-and-renegades/#findComment-1873745 Share on other sites More sharing options...
DuskRaider Posted February 9, 2009 Share Posted February 9, 2009 The only reason Abbadon is the Warmaster is because the Daemon Primarchs really don't care about the affairs of the material realm, for the most part. I'm sure if Angron or Mortarion one day decided to dethrone Abbadon, they could probably do it quite easily. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/139235-black-legion-and-renegades/#findComment-1875214 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redbaron997 Posted February 9, 2009 Share Posted February 9, 2009 That the Daemon Primarchs could probably take him down? I would say yes, (espically if more than one teamed up to do it) but even then I doubt it would be "Easy" Abby still commands the most Chaos Marines in the Galaxy. (Not to mention the planet killer, blackstones etc...) I would say if anyone stood a chance at it most, It would be Lorgar, His Legion is the most organized, probably 2nd more numorus (im guessing) His own Demagogue abilities would convert thousands of chaos marines to his cause, He can most depend on daemonic intervention, He is one of the undivided DPs, and thus could gain the blessings of all the gods, and is really the only of the Daemon Primarchs with the vision to not only kill abby, but win the long war. But he is bound by his duty and piety. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/139235-black-legion-and-renegades/#findComment-1875308 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sception Posted February 9, 2009 Share Posted February 9, 2009 A) Abaddon is not the 'archain' of 40k. Archaon is a faceless, storyless nobody whose only gimmick was that he was undefeatable. As soon as he was defeated in battle, he ceased to have any significance. Abaddon has history, goals, and so on. Even when he was defeated in the Black Crusades, he still came away with what he was truly after (his daemon sword, a couple blackstone fortresses, etc). B) None of the daemon primarchs care who the 'leader' of the mortal forces of chaos are. Several don't even care who the leader of what was once 'their' legion is. Most seem more concerned with daemonic politics, managing their own daemon worlds, or battles in the warp. C) Abaddon is personally a badder dude then any of the other chaos lords or even daemon princes, with the exception of the daemon primarchs. On top of that, he personally leads the largest chaos marine war host in the warp. That host includes a massive retinue of fanatically loyal terminators. He is served by his personal chosen - four lords or sorcerers of chaos, themselves fanatically loyal, and one of whom is tasked solely with the job of maintaining fear of the Despoiler as the primary motivation of the entire army. In addition to this massive force of hand-picked veteran chaos marines and terminators, Abaddon has access to a staggering number of daemonic war machines, up to and including imperator class battle titans. This war host is ferried through the eye in one of the largest chaos fleets, and its flagship is a battleship of staggering scale, capable of destroying small planets. Apart from this army, he is in direct command of the largest chaos marine legion, consisting of scores of Grand Companies led by lords, sorcerers, and daemon princes sworn to his service, and kept in constant fear of the repercussions of failing him. Nobody want to mess with the guy. The daemon primarchs don't have the motivation, and nobody else has the resources, let alone the stones. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/139235-black-legion-and-renegades/#findComment-1875311 Share on other sites More sharing options...
randian Posted February 9, 2009 Share Posted February 9, 2009 That host includes a massive retinue of fanatically loyal terminators. Loyal? We are talking about followers of Chaos, aren't we? Don't plenty of Chaos champions have daemon swords and Chaos Marks? So what makes Abbadon so personally tough compared to them? Heck, would Abbadon's bodyguards even protect him from a challenger? After all, if Abbadon is so weak he needs protection from challengers he's clearly too weak for any self-respecting champion of Chaos to follow. The daemon Primarchs already have immortality and near limitless power, so they've nothing to prove or gain by taking out Abbadon. I would argue that if they did the Gods would be most displeased, since (1) as daemons they can't effectively rule a Materium-based army in his stead, and (2) Abbadon's forces would undoubtedly devolve into civil war were he to die. I think even Khorne recognizes that the overall level of bloodshed in the Materium would be greatly diminished were Abbadon to be killed, even though killing him is entirely within Khorne's "I don't care from where the blood flows" philosophy. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/139235-black-legion-and-renegades/#findComment-1875402 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Magnus Thane Posted February 9, 2009 Share Posted February 9, 2009 I think you're confusing minor in game petswords and marks for typical lords with what Abby has. Fluffwise he has the most powerful Daemon sword in existence and his 'mark' or blessings are that of all Gods. The Mark of Undivided/Chaos Glory is not to be confused with it. As for loyalty, actually a lot of Chaos Space Marines do know loyalty. There is continuity. As for his bodyguard turning against him. That's highly unlike. The sheer resources, powers and gifts that favor Abaddon ensure that you'd need truly massive power and troops to deal with him or use a cunning trap. But fluff has shown that Abby tends to be insighftul and not that easy to deceive. He seems to know a lot that nobody else does. Black Crusade-wise, regarding Mars etc. Not to mention it makes no sense to take him out? So you killed him? God knows you might by doing so not gain the favor of the gods but the opposite? How much resources would have been wasted to get there? The reputation, prestige and links Abby build up that runs deep throughout the warp and the Legions would be cut and the newcomer despite winning a Civil War would have much to prove again. Better to continue with Abby. Especially with the 'endtime' so closeby. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/139235-black-legion-and-renegades/#findComment-1875455 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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