Anyone playtested Chaos in 5th?

[Joah from Alberta]

Yeah, so has anyone had a chance to playtest Chaos in 5th? I've seen some battle reports, mostly nids and orks dominating, anything stand out yet?

 

Also, does all infantry count as scoring, or just troops?

 

Cheers to 5th,

[Brother Nihm]

Just troops.

 

A few personal observations,

-Plasma cannons are the devils work now.

-Screening units are out, 3+ or 4+ cover saves for everyone it seems. (an exaggeration)

-Swarm armies dominate.

-Mech Eldar is weaker but is still powerful against us.

-Assault grenades on Slaaneshi marked units are worth their weight in gold, figuratively speaking.

[Maladon]

larger squad sizes is what will be... so some of the fluff of the Word bearers may come to pass- 12 man squads. even though now my army will have more than 3 troops choices.

[Deacoknight]

I've had some very good success with Blastmasters and the Defiler's battlecannon.

 

It's much harder to kill a possessed vehicle now than it was before (especially the Land Raider).

 

Icons can get killed a lot quicker.

 

Outflanking Chosen squads can be fun in a number of ways.

[Maladon]

I've had some very good success with Blastmasters and the Defiler's battlecannon.

 

It's much harder to kill a possessed vehicle now than it was before (especially the Land Raider).

 

Icons can get killed a lot quicker.

 

Outflanking Chosen squads can be fun in a number of ways.

 

Oh sh*t! I forgot about that with the icons, so no icons except ICG.

[meeper]

so does that mean the obliterator is actually worth it now?

[Brother Nihm]

so does that mean the obliterator is actually worth it now?

Barring infiltrating Havocs with Stealth Adept, they've been worth it from the beginning, in my opinion.

[meeper]

how would you say the plasma cannon's effectiveness increased with 5th?

[Brother Nihm]

how would you say the plasma cannon's effectiveness increased with 5th?

No roll to hit, only check for scatter if/and how far (and that scatter can still be good, sometimes better than you hoped for).

Partial hits are gone, it's all full hits now if you're under the marker.

[Zeller]

Should biker squads be large as well? I use a 3 man squad for tank busting. :D

[chrac]

I've been concerned about chaos dealing with footslogging orc hordes running a grot screen in 5th edition- without sounding shrill and panicked, can we effectively counter 100+ boys and grots providing a 4+ cover save?

[Seahawk]

A grot horde can't cover the entire army...just use the same tried and tested methods. CSM in rhinos with flamers is also a good suggestion. The more you can remove in a single shot the better, thus ordnance weapons will be quite sufficient. Besides, they shouldn't get cover as they aren't really hidden because the height of the Defiler's gun and you trace LOS from the mounting. Remember, the target unit must be partially hidden. If in doubt, it gets it at -1 anyway.

 

I've played a few games in 5th with my Word Bearers and I'd like to comment on a few things. First, icons. Don't worry about them unless you have small squads; they won't be lost any faster than before. Any unit 10+ or even 8+ will hold on to it for quite a long time. It's rare to take so many wounds that your icons will drop. Every game I've kept mine (well, one time I lost a meltagun...). The wound allocation bit, while making the game slightly longer, doesn't dramatically change things.

 

Second, Obliterators and Defilers are great for putting out the hurtin' blasts. 2d6-4/3 actually doesn't usually scatter that much. I'd risk saying the Defiler has become more accurate, especially on the move. All blasts have vastly improved, as Nihm said, because they never go away. They'll always be landing somewhere on the table, even if you didn't mean them to land in certain spots. And with any touched = hit, more are caused more often. One tick to add onto the plasma cannon is though you only sit'n'scatter, you still have to roll a dice to see if it overheats on a 1, in which case it won't fire. Meh.

 

Cover saves, while plentiful, don't occur that much more than before in my experience. And a typical CSM army won't be getting in each other's way and give the enemy cover saves.

 

Vehicles are much harder to destroy, especially walkers. Get them into combat and that's all she wrote, although the shooting they can provide is quite nice.

 

Infinite amounts of scoring units is always fun...daemons.

 

Rhinos are back in style, such as when being blown up the passengers take a S4 hit and a mere pinning check. Easily avoidable.

[the jeske]

shoting phase . lash the grots away. lash the grots away again . shot. ork turn . lash the grots away . lash one of the ork units away . ork turn . lash two ork units away ....etc etc .

 

oblits are great if someone tries to be sneaky and hide behind a bunker or land raider . you shot it with plasma and it may well end up on the other side [50% chance] of the tank, where the bunched up guys are . of course that rises the question , do units your not shoting at but get hit get cover , if you dont see them .

[Dosadi]

Some things I've been pondering with the 5th edition Red Corsair army I'm working on.

 

• Big Squads of Chaos Marines. We can field upto 20 marines in a single scoring squad. They can score to that last man; it will be really, really hard to get rid of 20 marines. I will be giving a squad of 20 Corsairs a few test games in my 5th edition build.
  
• Chosen with flamers outflanking can be very useful at taking out dug in enemies.
  
• Summoned lesser daemons are for sure going to be able to get into Close Combat now, since they can run after being summoned and then assault. They wil be good for putting them "in the way" to give my marines cover saves after a close combat consolidation or prevent marines from getting counter assaulted in the enemy's next turn. These guys will be indispensable for my berserkers.
  
• Power fists are going to be very rare in my list. In fact only my Berserker champ will have one now (3 A base).
  
• New vehicle rules make me like the idea of taking Dreads again as I can put that sucker in cover now and it can run! A good bulwark to back up my foot slogging marine squads
  
• Deep Striking terminators with heavy flamer/combi-flamers wil be a (chaos)god-send for burning things out of cover. I expect to see far less reaper autocannons now (too many points anyway).
  
• Possessed can't outflank because they roll for their ability after deployment...this sucks. But who want's to roll a 1 for them anyway...anything but Scout!
  
• Obliterators are going to be great. PLASMA CANNONS! Same goes for Vindicators...OMG are they going to own.
  
• Is anything going to be able to get rid of a squad of Deathguard sitting on an objective?
  

 

Thats's just a few quick thoughts.

 

 

Dosadi

[Deacoknight]

Summoned lesser daemons are for sure going to be able to get into Close Combat now, since they can run after being summoned and then assault. They wil be good for putting them "in the way" to give my marines cover saves after a close combat consolidation or prevent marines from getting counter assaulted in the enemy's next turn. These guys will be indispensable for my berserkers.

 

One thing to note is that the lesser daemons don't have the fleet of foot rule and won't be able to assault after running because of it. Only units that have fleet of foot can assault after running.

 

I do agree with you about the providing cover for them though. Being able to summon a living shield in front of you when you were open to enemy fire is a good thing.

[Kalrik]

I've played now 3 5th edition games with my 2 armies, and some of the major points I've noticed...

 

Beserkers are worth their wieght in GOLD, I played my friends Daemon army, and 10 of these suckers with no upgrades and no skullchamps, beat 10 daemonettes and 10ish khorne hounds, oh yeah and they did not get the charge, they recieved both, hard hitting fearless melee specialists are DISGUSTING in 5th, I've had to take modeling and creative liscence to work them into my Alpha Legion (they'll be modeled as bad*ss melee guys, with tiny marks of khorne on them somewhere) but they are GROSS

 

melee is super decisive,

 

so Fearless = Amazing

 

My comments in This color below

 

Some things I've been pondering with the 5th edition Red Corsair army I'm working on.

 

• Big Squads of Chaos Marines. We can field upto 20 marines in a single scoring squad. They can score to that last man; it will be really, really hard to get rid of 20 marines. I will be giving a squad of 20 Corsairs a few test games in my 5th edition build. - Disagree with this, CSM's are vulnerable to fear, make them fail a leadership check and they could be run off the board, and gone, losing a CC round can make your 20 marines flee in terror, now on the other hand Cult units of 20+ especially nurgie, thats sick.
  
• Chosen with flamers outflanking can be very useful at taking out dug in enemies. -- Absolutely, Chosen with a flammer and several meltaguns in a rhino is my new "heavy" thanks to Nihm =)
  
• Summoned lesser daemons are for sure going to be able to get into Close Combat now, since they can run after being summoned and then assault. They wil be good for putting them "in the way" to give my marines cover saves after a close combat consolidation or prevent marines from getting counter assaulted in the enemy's next turn. These guys will be indispensable for my berserkers. -- They canont RUN and assault, unless they have the fleet rule, which means, they're pretty much as good as they were before, and they are only good at one thing, CC and only moderately so, in my oppinion if your forces include besekers don't bother with daemons =P{edit browser crash mid-type}
  
• Power fists are going to be very rare in my list. In fact only my Berserker champ will have one now (3 A base). -- Absolutely, I completely agree here, I've not even been tempted to put a single powerfist in my list, not even on my one squad of beskeries! this will make armies different, heck I've stopped using ASP champs in most squads~!
  
• New vehicle rules make me like the idea of taking Dreads again as I can put that sucker in cover now and it can run! A good bulwark to back up my foot slogging marine squads -- I'm still not good on them killing my own troops and deciding that I cant controll them especially now that there is only a gaurentee of 5 turns now, with a high likelyhood of 6
  
• Deep Striking terminators with heavy flamer/combi-flamers wil be a (chaos)god-send for burning things out of cover. I expect to see far less reaper autocannons now (too many points anyway). -- Cannot argue here, I have been wary of Terminators since the new codex hit, but I think 5 of them with combi weapons is tolerable.
  
• Is anything going to be able to get rid of a squad of Deathguard sitting on an objective? -- I'm gonna go with, not easily... maybe aforementioned vindicator or plasma shots, or an absurdly awesome killy unit in CC... but yeah Plauge marines are just nasty in 5th...
  

 

Thats's just a few quick thoughts.

 

 

Dosadi

[Dosadi]

One thing to note is that the lesser daemons don't have the fleet of foot rule and won't be able to assault after running because of it. Only units that have fleet of foot can assault after running.

 

I do agree with you about the providing cover for them though. Being able to summon a living shield in front of you when you were open to enemy fire is a good thing.

 

 

Doh...my dumb mistake. In all my typity-type I totally neglected to check my random thoughts for sense making... :eek

I'll amend my statement so that daemons could run to get in the way of vulnerable marine units providing a cover save or an alternative CC target. Or dive for cover themselves if summoned in too early.

 

Now if my summoned daemons only had fleet...

 

@ Kalrik:

Icon of Chaos Glory will help marines with the leadership. Asp champs make the squads Ld10. I've almost never had a chaos marine squad run away. with 20 you have to kill five of them(not easy) to make 'em take that first Ld check and I get a re-roll. Granted, this build is untested in 5th CC. But with the counter charge I'm going to get my whole squad to fight and that's upwards of 40 attacks (3 of them power weapons). Unless I'm getting cought by something really mean (power weapons), they are not going to lose combat by too much and I still get that re-roll. Fearless can be a big liability with those extra wounds taken when losing. Also, big cult squads are very, very expensive. 20 regular C.marines can be as little as 300 points. Still, 20 berserkers would be insane...and I'm just insane enough to do it!

 

I'm not too put off by "Crazed". Most of the time it's not an issue. I've played entire games where the Dred has always been "Sane". Blood Rage will only serve us better in 5th with the added fleet. Yes sometimes I really want to shoot and dashing out of a good fire postion (and cover) might be crappy, but that's the unpredictable nature of chaos. I don't care about fire frenzy as I run my dred with a pair of CC weapons, a TLB and HF. So the worst he's going to do is pump some bolter shots into the backs of his buddies. My marines can deal with that. I'm not saying it's the best use of an elites slot, but It's better than before...even if just a little; and I really like dreads.

 

 

Dosadi

[Joah from Alberta]

I love the new dread in 5th. Running/cover is da bomb, greatness for anyone who loves to play with these models.

 

Concerning morale checks, I read in a battle report somewhere that morale checks as low as 2 or 3 had to be made ... now my question is just how many modifiers are there to morale now??? And if there a bunch of new modifier for morale checks how is that going to affect our chosen?

 

Well, keep it up gentlemen, I like reading this collaborative.

 

Cheers,

[Kalrik]

@ Kalrik:

Icon of Chaos Glory will help marines with the leadership. Asp champs make the squads Ld10. I've almost never had a chaos marine squad run away. with 20 you have to kill five of them(not easy) to make 'em take that first Ld check and I get a re-roll. Granted, this build is untested in 5th CC. But with the counter charge I'm going to get my whole squad to fight and that's upwards of 40 attacks (3 of them power weapons). Unless I'm getting cought by something really mean (power weapons), they are not going to lose combat by too much and I still get that re-roll. Fearless can be a big liability with those extra wounds taken when losing. Also, big cult squads are very, very expensive. 20 regular C.marines can be as little as 300 points. Still, 20 berserkers would be insane...and I'm just insane enough to do it!

 

The alternative to fearless in CC is worse,

 

you take a -1 ld for every wound you lose by, if you're charged by say bloodletters who cause 7 wounds and you only give back 2, however unlikely your ld10 is now ld5 your icon may not save you, your remaining 13 CSM's can be run off the board at that point, thats why fearless is better. The "added" wounds from losing an assault, as fearless they aren't special, so you take your normal armor save against them, in my oppinion the best unit would be:

 

Best offensive unit:

 

A troop

With 3+ base attacks(including 2 weapon)

Fearless

High armor (3+ or better)

A great Weaponskill (5+ is awesome)

Maybe some Badass vet skill like say, Furious charge...

 

Sound like any unit you know?

 

Best Defensive unit:

A Troop -holding objectives!

High toughness

Fearless

High armor

Fear no Pain

Decent main gun, something in the STR4 range with Rapid fire

 

Sound like any unit you know?

 

Now if only there was an army that could take both these types of units at the same time.

 

Now this is not to discount the basic CSM

Right now, as of this post, the CSM is the best most cost-effective troop choice in the game, it has rapid fire bolters, 2 attacks in melee, and is cheap enough, its also able to be flexed out with icons for cheap enough... overall its a fantastic unit.

 

Even without ATSKNF after just getting my hands on the new 5th ed rulebook today, I'd take CSMs over loyalists every time.

[TheDarkOne]

Is there anything particulalry wrong with fielding say a legion with berzerkers, a lash prince and some plague marines?

 

Chaos undivided workign together under a warband of your own creation... problems?

[Gman]

With the lesser demon summoning, you can still assault after deep striking, as long as you don't run, correct? So at least you have the option of assaulting something, if you're close enough, or doing a run move to spread out, get closer to the enemy, or "shield" the marines that summoned them. Still seem like a pretty nice unit to have in a game. I'm looking forward to seeing how mine do.

[TheDarkOne]

I know LD's can assault on the same turn as a deepstrike, but can they run instead?

 

thats awesome, no more plasma-canon-kils-my-whole-unit-the-same-turn-they-appear.

[the jeske]

big units dont work even more now [now all blasts hit them not just barrage] . lets say you have a unit of 20 on an objective and someone has 2 x1 guy from different squads . objectiv is his . he wins .

 

also with the low sv the demons have they really need big squads to do something against a non pure shoty lists [and I dont think there are going to be a lot of good gunline lists in the 5th ;/]

[Librarian]

Is anything going to be able to get rid of a squad of Deathguard sitting on an objective? -- I'm gonna go with, not easily... maybe aforementioned vindicator or plasma shots, or an absurdly awesome killy unit in CC... but yeah Plauge marines are just nasty in 5th...

 

What can get rid of them? Lots of things. A shot from a battlecannon for example.

I can't see why Plague Marines get better while FnP becomes weaker and template weapons become stronger in 5th.

[TheDarkOne]

how has fnp become weaker?