Drudge Dreadnought Posted July 10, 2008 Share Posted July 10, 2008 With fifth edition it seems like almost all the sm players i know are going mechanized due to the new vehicle survivability and cover saves. I could do the same and try to outmech them, but i'm more interested in looking at other options. I could do an infantry list with havocs and oblits as the heavy support, but what i'm wondering is if its feasible to overrun a mech list with enough close to medium range units. I've run a very effective infantry list vs other infantry armies that is just lots of regular marines, berzerkers, and terminators with plenty of powerfists, meltas and plasma. Zero heavy support or fast attack, the only armor a pair of rhinos for a 12 inch move for the zerks on the first turn, or just to use to block los to heavy weapons. So what i'm wondering is can enough infantry with meltas and powerfists fight a mech force with any competitivness? I'd probably have double the infantry of a mech list and more scoring units, the thing that worries me is being hit and run by faster vehicles and large blast artillery. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/140587-viability-of-non-mech-lists-vs-mech-lists/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
sonsoftaurus Posted July 10, 2008 Share Posted July 10, 2008 Should be able to do it. Area terrain not blocking LOS as easily should allow well-placed Havocs to get good shots at lots of vehicles, even if they do get cover saves. Infiltrating/Flanking Chosen and deepstriking Terminators/Oblits can get at tanks that try to hang back. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/140587-viability-of-non-mech-lists-vs-mech-lists/#findComment-1625101 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drudge Dreadnought Posted July 11, 2008 Author Share Posted July 11, 2008 Should be able to do it. Area terrain not blocking LOS as easily should allow well-placed Havocs to get good shots at lots of vehicles, even if they do get cover saves. Infiltrating/Flanking Chosen and deepstriking Terminators/Oblits can get at tanks that try to hang back. Actually i was wondering if it would work with no heavy support, so no havocs or oblits. Just lots of meltas, powerfists and plasma. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/140587-viability-of-non-mech-lists-vs-mech-lists/#findComment-1625249 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roultox Posted July 11, 2008 Share Posted July 11, 2008 The fewer points put in the back of the line means more points at the front line. Ive done such lists to great effect before, tolling around 40 marines in 4 rhinos packing 8 meltaguns and 4 power fists with combi-flamers on the rhinos using extra armor and smoke launchers back in 3.5 codex. Still do-able these days too, just remember to catch any skimmers trying to flee at the last possible turn to hamper your long range lacking. I highly suggest putting pressure in one spot at a time for tough target killing, and spreading out to take down light targets such as imperial guard. You only need 3 or 4 marines in each squad to take out 100 guardsmen by the end of the game. The trick is to make sure they cant fall towards one table edge and destroy your transports to stop your momentum. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/140587-viability-of-non-mech-lists-vs-mech-lists/#findComment-1625304 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaplain ChonkE Posted July 11, 2008 Share Posted July 11, 2008 Well I know I dont swing through here too often but to answer your question Drudge; yes, the Black Templar chapter, favored Crusaders of the Emperor, blessed be His Name, uses this weapons (PF and Melta) loadout with frequent regularity. It is the meat and potatoes of our large foot-slogging Crusader units, and we have no devastators, although we do use alternatives. You do need some form of heavy weapons on the field. That being said, it is a tactic that many Marshalls of our chapter use to great success against some armies. They can be quite nasty to mech lists if you can cover the distance in time without getting chewed up. I just wouldnt rely on them tackling like... flying clowns or anything like that heh. At the core it is a great setup to bust up heavy armor and infantry, but the range... can feel lacking at times heh. However when they get there... heh! We only get to pack one of each of these weapons in our large foot slogging units. This being a fairly successful tactic in 4th edition for BT, you will have equivalent time more or less in 5th edition with advantageous use of run (equating to our current Righteous Zeal roll) to do similar tactics. Combined with dedicated heavy weapons support, which is a luxury we dont have, and having a bit better selection of weapons (+ frag/krak) and a Sgt/Champion in your standard squad will also be an extra advantage that you have with the 5th ed PF attack nerf compared to BT slogger squads. Yes, we augment our lack of heavy weapons with Las/Plas squads (blech) or Speeders/Attack Bikes (Yum) and dreads/tanks, but without VP considerations I think the havocs/devs of our PA brethren are going to be excellent indeed! However, this is one of the core elements of a competitive BT infantry heavy list in 4th ed, and with 5th ed rules it seems like anyone can use that tactic to a similar effect (and we just got even faster :)). Given the similarity in loadout (*shakes his fists at the Bolter/BP/CCW*) and having greater support flexibility (I would love to have a group of berzerkers trailing behind my slogger screen to play clean up >.<) at both range and CC, I wouldnt see any reason why this wouldnt work for you. And with the 5th edition emphasis on troops this gives you alot of bodies to score points with who can deal with most threats up close and personal, playing to the strengths of a space marine. Looking at the Chaos codex I would prolly use a PF champ/melta/plas gun combo, or PF/melta/flamer, or maybe a double melta... *scratches his chin* Damn Heretics. In any case, those would be very well rounded scoring troops indeed in 5th ed. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/140587-viability-of-non-mech-lists-vs-mech-lists/#findComment-1625341 Share on other sites More sharing options...
davethebear Posted July 11, 2008 Share Posted July 11, 2008 mech lists are good but they can get munched without enough troops on foot,i found this is white dwarf,try it: chaos sorcerer:Mark of Slaanesh,daemonic sgeed,melta bombs,personal icon,lash of submission.165 points. daemon prince;mark of Nurgle,wings,nurgles rot.165 points. 10 chaos marines:icon of slaanesh,champion with powerfist,2 melta guns,rhino (extra armour0.280 points. 10 plague marines:personal icon,plague champion with power fist,2 plasma guns.rhino(extra armour).355 points. chaos vinicator:extra armour.140 points. 2 obliterators.150 points. 8 chaos havocs:icon of chaos glory,4 plasma guns.rhino(extra armour).240 points. TOTAL:1495 points. enjoy(if you like it). :) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/140587-viability-of-non-mech-lists-vs-mech-lists/#findComment-1625429 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drudge Dreadnought Posted July 11, 2008 Author Share Posted July 11, 2008 Looking at the Chaos codex I would prolly use a PF champ/melta/plas gun combo Thats exactly what i use. I know this isn't the army lists forum but I guess it would be simplest to just post the list i've been experimenting with. Total: 1999, 60 bodies, 2 vehicles HQ - 205 205 - Tzeentch Sorcerer Lord: Terminator Armor, Wind of Chaos, Warptime, Combi Melta Elites - 475 240 - Terminators x5: Champion with Lightning Claws, Icon of Tzeentch, Combi Weapon x3, Chain Fist, Heavy Flamer 235 - Terminators x5: Champion with Lightning Claws, Icon of Tzeentch, Combi Weapon x3, Power Fist, Heavy Flamer Troops - 1319 225 - Marines x10: Icon of Chaos Glory, Melta Gun, Plasma Gun, Champion: Powerfist 225 - Marines x10: Icon of Chaos Glory, Melta Gun, Plasma Gun, Champion: Powerfist 270 - Berzerkers x10: Champion, Power Fist, Plasma Pistol, Personal Icon 270 - Berzerkers x10: Champion, Power Fist, Plasma Pistol, Personal Icon 259 - Thousand Sons x8, Sorcerer: Doombolt, Melta Bombs 70 - Rhino x2 The goal of the list was to have tons of bodies, tons of scoring units, and each squad able to tear up armor. The combi's on the terminators are a mix of melta and plasma, and the rhinos carry either the csm or berzerkers depending on my mood/opponent. I default them to the berzerkers if i don't know what i'm fighting. Based off the comments on this thread so far i could probably do with some more rhinos. A chosen squad would be nice with the new melta rules but i'm not sure it'd be worth dropping a scoring unit, and the terminators have always seemed to be such a great value for me. Maybe i'll get a cheaper hq (although he always kills his points) and use the points from that for a rhino, or drop the plasma pistols on the berzerkers. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/140587-viability-of-non-mech-lists-vs-mech-lists/#findComment-1625779 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaplain ChonkE Posted July 19, 2008 Share Posted July 19, 2008 Well, with the new screening rules being as they are, the plasma on the zerkers is not a bad thing at all. I use them on my 2 10xAssault Marines (PF, 2xPP's and some Storm shields) squads trailing behind my 2 14-20 man slogger Crusader squads and find they are quite useful to support your units, especially with the saves. I now just zip them up into combat to support my Crusader squads who enter into CC, using them to knock out tough elites or tie up retinues and their IC's. Your troops list is very similar in essence to the footslogger lists, but even in my army I like to have some heavy weapons firepower. I would suggest a pair of Havoc squads, with an autocannon and lascannon or a predator or two, and just trim the fat where necessary. You can substitute the ML for the autocannon. It sounds like you want scoring units with teeth and that is what you'll have. Kind of unconvinced on the Termies, but then again I only use them for AC's or CC out of a LRC or LR and they are highly effective in those roles. With run it isnt so I guess but still..... Anyways, good luck to you and good gaming I hope ^.^ Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/140587-viability-of-non-mech-lists-vs-mech-lists/#findComment-1634663 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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