Which Greater Daemon?

[Vassakov]

I would personally say the LoC is the best, simply for the versatility it can bring to the Daemons as a fire platform. With a 3++ save and the capacity to shoot 3 weapons and fly around it will quickly become a pain for the enemy, and as a MC it is hardly a liability in CC.

 

Next up the Thirster over the KoS. Why? Bloodthirsters have wings. With the right upgrades it can reach S9 on the charge with enough attacks to slaughter anything nearby, and Iron Hide plus it's toughness will keep it alive longer than the Keeper. As for the Fly-v-Fleet argument, assume there is a squad of Devastators 17.5" away. No problem for a Bloodthirster. Keepers got a 1/6 chance of making it before they blow holes in you. Also, Thirsters can hide behind terrain and jump over. Keepers can't. Finally, I don't know what the maths is but S9+2D6 AP has got to be as good as S6+2D6 + rending, considering armour only goes up to 14.

[Wolf89]

Finally, I don't know what the maths is but S9+2D6 AP has got to be as good as S6+2D6 + rending, considering armour only goes up to 14.

 

Against a monolith ignore the 2D6 for both, so you're looking at a S6+rending vs. a S9 against an AV of 14... I'll take the BT there as well. :D

[Captain Malachi]

Finally, I don't know what the maths is but S9+2D6 AP has got to be as good as S6+2D6 + rending, considering armour only goes up to 14.

 

Against a monolith ignore the 2D6 for both, so you're looking at a S6+rending vs. a S9 against an AV of 14... I'll take the BT there as well. :)

 

Rending doesn't work either, making the 'thirster even better.

[eyescrossed]

One, I've already picked, so you don't need to keep this going until virtual fists are thrown, and also, the keeper of secrets can virtually charge 18", if it has pavane, and it may have fleet, which makes it 24" max, and it can also hit and run - there aren't any other MC in the game that can hit and run.

[Wolf89]

One, I've already picked, so you don't need to keep this going until virtual fists are thrown, and also, the keeper of secrets can virtually charge 18", if it has pavane, and it may have fleet, which makes it 24" max, and it can also hit and run - there aren't any other MC in the game that can hit and run.

 

It's a general topic really that helps other's who may be starting out and wanting to know what Greater Daemon to use, and there's already a lot of work put into this by a lot of people (lots of mathhammers and such) so why not keep it going? ;)

 

If we look at the situation, KoS drops down, likely using pavane, or if feeling the need will run correct? Then at the next turn (if still alive) he'll move 6", then another 3.5" and finally assault 6" (15.5" total) if he got pavane off (BS 4 so 2/3 the time it will go off) then you've got a possible extra 3.5" bringing you to 19". This all assuming there is no terrain features of sorts and whatnot to hinder the KoS movements.

 

A BT dropping down is going to run, no question, only time is a death strike attack but at 12" it's not likely to happen first turn because I'm a pus and hate to risk my GD's just to get off a pitiful S7 shot (which he always seems to miss even with a BS 4 :D ). Now we look at next turn movement (much better chance to live with an armor save) and we see 12" untouched by terrain features of any type, and then a 6" charge, this is 18" always, and is guaranteed movement.

 

Now lets go to combat, first the KoS is a nasty thing at I 10, that's just nasty, also hit and run can help in certain situations and with the chances of failing an I test slim, it's likely to go off without worry. He's somewhat weaker, at a S6 unmodified over the BT but has 6 attacks and a great WS (next the the BT an average WS). On average (we'll use a standard marine for these examples since it's the most likeliest army people face) the KoS will hit with 4 of the 6 attacks and will wound with 2.67 of those hits, killing ~3 marines, now getting hit back on 4's, and wounded on 6's, you can bet the KoS will win combat, but this isn't taking into account power fists which still hitting on 4's is a good chance of suffering at least a wound or two. Now the KoS if he doesn't make the unit flee from likely loosing combat, he has the option to hit and run, something he might want to consider if something like WGBG start heading your way. Otherwise it's a better idea to stay and weather the storm for another turn then leaving during your opponent's turn so you can charge another unit or what have you.

 

A BT in combat is a beast, furious charge (look above at movement, and notice it's likely to happen that both GD's will get the charge off, if facing eachother it's a toss up) puts him at S8, I6, 5 attacks base and a WS of 10, some nasty stuff is going on here for sure. Also the cheap points upgrade for a 2++ against psychic and force weapon attacks is just crazy as well. Now the BT against the marines, of the 5 attacks hitting on 3's he will hit with 3.33 of those attacks and wound with 2.22 so killing ~2 marines, now getting hit back on 5's and wounded on 6's and getting a 3+ 4++ over just a 4++ you can also bet the BT will win combat, but the trick here is not by much, and likely to STAY IN COMBAT for another turn so he won't get shot at being out in the open or what have you (this is what appeals to me the most, not how many you can kill asap, but how many you can kill at the right time, and how durable are you after the combat).

 

Vehicles and the BT/KoS shouldn't be a problem, both are likely to destroy what they're attacking, just the BT is going to ensure more destruction to the vehicle (more penetrating hits) and if there's a monolith the KoS has no way to destroy it in HtH (no 2d6 and no rending, so the highest is S12 against AV14).

 

If fighting eachother (for these purposes and to be fair we'll say neither charged the other and vice versa, so no extra attacks, and no furious charge for the BT). KoS will go first and swinging with 6 attacks hitting on 4+'s so 3 will hit, then S6 against T6 will yield 1.5 wound, and on a 4++ the BT will save .75 so likely taking one wound. Now the BT will swing for 5 attacks hitting on 3's so 3.33 will hit, and S 7 (no charge and no upgrade) against T6 will yield 2.22 wounds, and also on a 4++ will save 1.11 so taking ~ 1 wound as well. If this continues then likely the BT will die first as the KoS goes first in combat. However, at the end of this assault, if the next turn is the KoS's then he will do a hit and run, guaranteeing him the charge bonus next turn. So I would imagine it would depend on who charged who at this point and if the BT charged he would win combat, causing extra wounds to the KoS, and if the KoS charged into combat he would win combat and the same thing about taking wounds, difference is the BT rolls on a 3+ instead of a 4++ for wounds, so take that into account as well.

 

Overall both have their quirks and stuff but in the end it boils down to what the rest of your army is like, and how many points per effectiveness you want, take into account the KoS is cheaper than the BT by 50 points, the upgrades differ, but if you go off of my above posts about hit and run, and pavane, that puts the KoS equal to the BT (ok 5 points off so that doesn't make a difference.. -_- )

 

Also note the effectiveness for the BT is increased vs. special characters that he'll likely be able to instantly kill he charges into them/has unholy might. This would put him again higher than the KoS putting him at 270.

[Captain Idaho]

Way I see it, a KoS is cheaper and can take off a single attack from an enemy model, which can mean those PFs go from 2 to 1, hitting on a 4+, wounding on 2+ then you get your 4++ save (in most cases) which means you survive longer. Throw Pavane and other upgrades and you can have a really useful GD, for cheaper than a Bloodthirster with +2 attack.

 

Who cares about a KoS being able to destroy a monolith?

 

So that is what I would prefer.

[Wolf89]

Way I see it, a KoS is cheaper and can take off a single attack from an enemy model, which can mean those PFs go from 2 to 1, hitting on a 4+, wounding on 2+ then you get your 4++ save (in most cases) which means you survive longer. Throw Pavane and other upgrades and you can have a really useful GD, for cheaper than a Bloodthirster with +2 attack.

 

Who cares about a KoS being able to destroy a monolith?

 

So that is what I would prefer.

 

It's only 1 more attack, not two. Overall the BT will survive longer, the stats are posted earlier in this post, but again it boils down to how much you want to pay/rest of army/and opponent choice.

[Captain Idaho]

Yeah I noticed I put a 2 instead of 1?! Heinous slip of the keys, how embarassing!

[Wolf89]

Yeah I noticed I put a 2 instead of 1?! Heinous slip of the keys, how embarassing!

 

It's ok, I've done MUCH worse, but when I started cutting back on the fenrisian ale (I know heresy right?), I started having less problems. ;)

 

Something to note, I used Ku'gath against a Nightbringer and won no problem, too bad I never use him... has potential though.

[==Me==]

I'd say they all have their uses, it depends on what you want for your army.

 

The BT hits hard, flies, and is very tough. His biggest drawback is high cost and relatively low number of attacks.

 

The KoS is cheaper, is still plenty fast with fleet, always strikes first, has both kinds of grenades, and dishes out a ridiculous number of attacks. With proper upgrades it can H&R and remove an enemy attack. I wouldn't bother with Pavane or Daemonic Gaze, as it's only BS4 and you're better off fleeting anyway. Only a 4++ and S6 are its biggest disadvantages.

 

The LoC is easily the most expensive and puts out a ton of firepower with respectable combat abilities. 3++ and flight keeps the bird going for a while, but all those upgrades make it stupidly expensive. I take Breath and instrument and call it a day, anything else and he just gets way too expensive (you're better off with Kairos after that).

 

The GUO is super cheap, super tough, and is still the bane of most MCs. S&P is not a big deal as he rolls 3D6 for movement and all he really needs for upgrades is Breath and Cloud of Flies. Aura is always an option if you run into hordes.

 

Normally I'd go for the LoC purely for fluff and the awesome model, but I feel the KoS or GUO is the most efficient choice for their low cost and high utility.

[Captain Idaho]

Well said ==Me==, think I agree with that summary.