5th Edition Pinning Test Rules

[Childofthewired]

The rules for pinning weapons are quite clear that a single squad may be called upon to take multiple pinning tests in a round of fire. What is less clear is what provokes the subsequent tests. In 4th it was clear that each unit that gets a kill provokes its own test, in 5th the language seems to suggest that each weapon that gets a kill provokes a test.

 

The question came up in yesterday's game, and we had 5 veterans looking through 3 copies of the rule book trying to disprove this interpretation to no avail. Is this in fact how the new rules operate?

[Race Bannon]

"seems to suggest"?

 

Man, unless I'm corrected, keep it simple:

 

Each unit that shoots provokes the test.

 

To "suggest" that a 5-man scout sniper squad will force up to five tests is ... ridiculous. And a slippery slope.

[HiveFleetEzekial]

Right, there is no 'seems to suggests. And rules, precident, FAQs from previous editions do not hold over into the current edition. Just because something worked one way before, does not automatically mean it works the same way now (unless the wording is exactly the same, ofcourse). The description under pinning weapons now says 'by a weapon', not 'by a single enemy unit' as it used to in 4E.

 

For now, until they FAQ it, it's by weapon, not by unit.

 

 

Slippery slope some might say.. but I've brought my climbing gear, just incase :D And I'm not 'suggesting' a 5 man scout squad could possibly cause 5 pinning tests. I'm saying, by the current rules, they could possibly cause 5 pinning tests. Or 10 for a full 10 man squad of them. Besides, they still have to actually hit. And if scouts are now BS3, they're less likely to force pinning checks now than they used to be.

[maniclurker]

Less likely AND more likely at the same time. Rending means there is a chance of really doing some hurt.

[the jeske]

And if scouts are now BS3, they're less likely to force pinning checks now than they used to be.

not the BA/DA ones.

[Race Bannon]

Wow.

 

I hope they come out with a small pocket version of the rulebook :)

 

If it's by weapon, does that mean weapon type or each weapon that can cause pinning from the unit, per unit? I don;t think it's a silly question.

 

I mean, assuming awesome rolls one way and crap rolling another - 5 tests versus 1 test means a lot.

[Childofthewired]

I'm throwing my hat in on this one with Hive Fleet.

 

It is by weapon. This was posted by a friend of mine on 40k online (and Hive Fleet responded there too), and I wanted to judge the responses by forum. So far the argument comes down to "The rules say by weapon" and "That's not how it worked in 4th" and "That isn't in the spirit of the game".

 

The spirit of 5th edition is in the rules. And by my reading, it even specifies that the pinning test is taken immediately after failing the save, not at the end of the phase like other leadership tests caused by casualties, as going to ground changes the save values for other units shooting.

 

Forget 4th edition, and forget what you know. The Emperor hath handed down his rules, now play the edition that is current.

[Reglor]

I'm throwing my hat in on this one with Hive Fleet.

 

It is by weapon. This was posted by a friend of mine on 40k online (and Hive Fleet responded there too), and I wanted to judge the responses by forum. So far the argument comes down to "The rules say by weapon" and "That's not how it worked in 4th" and "That isn't in the spirit of the game".

 

The spirit of 5th edition is in the rules. And by my reading, it even specifies that the pinning test is taken immediately after failing the save, not at the end of the phase like other leadership tests caused by casualties, as going to ground changes the save values for other units shooting.

 

Forget 4th edition, and forget what you know. The Emperor hath handed down his rules, now play the edition that is current.

 

I'm going to have to disagree with that that. Or at least pull up another argument for the other side.

 

The rules state that if a unit suffers any unsaved wounds that pin if must take a pinning test. The fact that they say wounds not wound seem to imply that any number of hits from one unit cause a single test.

 

I thought this new edition would at least be out a week before we started finding unclear rules. Guess that will teach me about being a optimist.

[HiveFleetEzekial]

Yes it says 'wounds' (plural)... "from a weapon" not from a unit, or from a squad. "from a weapon". This is to take into account possible guns that may cause pinning and have more than one shot.

 

 

And 5E has been 'out' for right at a month now. Soon as stores started getting their sneak peek copies people started tearing into the rules. The picking had already started before the official release. The moderators just kept a fairly (though not 100%) tight lid on it around all the different forums.

[DevianID]

So basicly, if an ordance barrage weapon with a single shot causes 5 casualties, then the squad takes 1 pinning check (albet at a negative due to the ord barrage rule).

 

If a squad of 10 space marine scouts cause 5 casualties with 5 different sniper weapons, then the squad takes 5 pinning checks.

 

If 5 different squads of space marine scouts with sniper rifles each cause a single casualty on a squad, then the squad takes 5 pinning checks.

 

Seems pretty reasonable, as a sniper rifle kill from two squads versus two sniper rifle kills from one squad logically is the same.

[njm3]

If a squad of 10 space marine scouts cause 5 casualties with 5 different sniper weapons, then the squad takes 5 pinning checks.

 

um...

 

The rules state that if a unit suffers any unsaved wounds that pin if must take a pinning test. The fact that they say wounds not wound seem to imply that any number of hits from one unit cause a single test.

 

What he said. Pinning (p31) refers to unsaved wounds by a unit. Not models, the unit. And the test is immediate, but not after each individual wound. Remember, you roll saves as a batch, so all unsaved wounds happen at once, when you are removing models. p24/25.

 

The other two examples appear correct.

[HiveFleetEzekial]

No.. pinning doesn't 'refer' to anything. I've alread provided the quote for it above (though breif). I'll repeat it again, in a fuller version for you.

 

"If a unit other than a vehicle suffers any unsaved wounds from a pinning weapon, it must immediately take a Pinning test." P31.

 

It's per (pinning) weapon fired. Not per squad with pinning weapons that fires/wounds. The only bit of 'unit' it's refering to is the target squad, not the firing squad.

[njm3]

Explain to me how a unit could take multiple pinning tests from fire from a single unit.

 

One unit of snipers shooting at one unit of whatever.

 

1. Roll to shoot for all the pinning weapons

2. Roll to wound for all the pinning weapons

3. Take saving throws from all the pinning weapons (not dealing with a complex unit but that wouldn't make any difference.

4. Remove models from unsaved wounds.

 

Did the unit suffer any unsaved wounds from a pinning weapon? Did you remove models from unsaved wounds from pinning weapons? Yep... take a pinning test.

 

"Wounds" is plural. If any weapon was a pinning weapon, take the test. If half the wounds were from pinning weapons, take _a_ test. If all the wounds were from pinning weapons, take _a_ test.

 

"If a unit other than a vehicle suffers unsaved wounds from a pinning weapon, it must take a pinning test for each wound until it fails a test and then goes to ground (and takes no more tests)" is not how the rule is written, nor what it says.

 

edit: clarification and fixed wordzing.

[Reglor]

"If a unit other than a vehicle suffers any unsaved wounds from a pinning weapon, it must immediately take a Pinning test." P31.

 

All that means is the weapon must be a pinning weapon, as opposed to a non-pinning weapons, not that you take a test for each pinning wound.

 

If you are wounded by 5 diffrent models with pinning weapons, yov've taken 5 wounds that were caused by a pinning weapon.

[HiveFleetEzekial]

It says wounds' plural' in for in the case of any multi-shot pinning weapons. They do exist. And the wording, nomatter how much you may choose to refute it, says '..by a weapon'. Not by a squad/unit with pinning weapons.

 

Yes, they took wounds... from several (pinning) weapons. Not just 1. And each weapon, by the current rules (with 4E being history now and no FAQ to say otherwise), forces 1 pinning test each.

 

 

 

All that means is the weapon must be a pinning weapon, as opposed to a non-pinning weapons, not that you take a test for each pinning wound.

 

I'm so glad you brought that to my attnetion, really I am. That wasn't already so painfully obvious that they were talking about pinning weapons...

 

 

... in the description for pinning weapons.

 

That is not 'all' that the rule means.

[njm3]

You're saying that this is the mechanic:

 

10 shots, half hit, all rolled at once.

Roll for 5 wounds, all rolled at once.

Fail 5 saves, all rolled at once.

Remove five models. Five unsaved wounds caused by five unsaved pinning weapon hits.

 

Take 5 pinning tests one after another?

[HiveFleetEzekial]

So long as they manage to successively(sp?) pass them. Yes, they would be subject to 5 successive pinning checks, by the current wording of the rule.

 

As little sense as it may actually make (and I'd agree on that). But that's how it's currently worded. Like it or not, love it or not. And lets face it. SM scouts will need it that way once they get 'updated'. The odds will be even less in their favor of actually being effective once their 5E codex hits. BS3? And they have to roll to hit now, too. It aint lookin pretty for them. I already didn't feild them all that much because of the (at the time) unreliable-ness of their pinning something.

[Praeger]

As little sense as it may actually make (and I'd agree on that).

 

Actually it makes full sense.

 

being hit by one large explosive blast will scare you, but then its over.

 

Now imagine your walking along and all of a sudden the guy to your left drops dead. Your shaken but ok. The guy to your rights now gone. Your a lil more freaked out but keep moving. Now bobby's dead. Everyone loved bobby. now your freaking out. No sound, just the "woosh" as the rounds fly past your head and the slight grunt of shock as your buddies drop to the ground. One. Then another. Then another.

 

Personaly id find the sniper rounds MUCH more scary then the artilery.

[njm3]

Now that it is clear exactly what each of us means, yeah, I just disagree. We are reading the same thing two different ways. Happens all the time. No amount of quoting, logic, diagramming, analogies, RAW, or OED definitions will change the others mind. Telling me "That's how it's currently worded" doesn't help, we both have copies of the rules. I'd suggest talking it over with your gaming group or waiting for some other folks to chime in in the thread. :)

 

edit: Ok, i'll try logic, just to be complete. If [condition] then [immediate result]. I can't "immediately" take multiple pinning tests if each test can affect the having to take another test.

[HiveFleetEzekial]

Atleast you're a more agreeable, disagreable, chap than someone on another forum.. dealing with this same issue. lol :)

[Morticon]

Ezekiel- you can try argue that for your local gaming groups and/or home games- but its highly likely to fly at any major tourney.

 

The reason its written as " a weapon" and not the plural of weapon is because with the plural it can just as easily be implied that you need multiple wounds from multiple weapons in order to force a pinning check. Additionally it could also imply multiple types of pinning weapons. ie: You would be required to wound with two different types of pinning weapons.

 

Additionally - since all shooting is simultaneous ..you get the situation njm mentioned above.

 

I dont know mate, your interpretation seems more like you're forgetting your own sig. quote >_<

[HiveFleetEzekial]

Not forfgetting, just arguing for how the rule presents itself to me. And remember I've said.. either in this thread or over on 40k online( in which case, this'll be the first here). I hadn't used scouts as it was. Pinning with them was too unreliable for me. And honetly, I've gotten used to my current army lists, to the point that I wouldn't be able to fit them in, or justify the exchange (as elites), for them to be worth it. So the side I'm arguing, does me no good.

 

(and I already said I agreed that it doesn't make sense, lol. It's just how it reads to me, and enough others to argue it, so GW FAQs it to where there's no question about it. So I guess I'm really playin just devil's advocate again...)

[Cale]

The rules neither call nor allow for multiple pinning tests to be provoked by a single unit. Why? Because all fire from a single unit is presumed to have resolved simultaneously.

 

Consider:

 

A unit of snipers fires on another unit. Ten shots, eight hits, four wounds, two unsaved wounds.

 

To resolve that fire, then, two models are removed and we check to see whether any wounds were done by pinning weapons. The key, here, is that this is a binary check: either wounds were done by pinning weapons or they weren't. Yes or not--but never how many.

 

In this case, two wounds were done by two pinning weapons, so the answer to the question is yes. The unit takes a pinning test.

 

Nothing about the wording of this rule, when taken in conjuction for the actual mechanisms for resolving fire against a unit, provides for multiple checks coming from the same unit. Rather, since the rules are specific in stating that that the all the effects of all fire from a single unit be resolved simultaneously, there is no room for multiple checks to occur. Taken in the correct context, the pinning rule is clearly asking a simple yes/no question, with no room for a quantity in its answer.

[Schrodinger]

Greetings, the OP suggested I check out this thread even though I don't usually visit these forums. I was a participant in the game that brought this question up (and it was my opponent, not I, who had the squad of snipers). This is my interpretation of the rules, please point out any flaws in the logic.

 

The rules for pinning hold only a few bits of information as relevant: Was a (singular) weapon able to cause any number of unsaved wounds? Was that weapon pinning? If the answer to both of these questions is yes, than a pinning check is called for. The unit described by these rules is the one under fire, the weapons causing the damage are never required to be in one or many enemy (or friendly) units.

 

This leads me to the conclusion that for each weapon that causes an unsaved wound, a separate pinning check is required.

 

The fact that all fire from a single unit is resolved simultaneously does not necessarily preclude multiple shots from provoking pinning. If you consider a vehicle taking multiple unsaved hits, you have a parallel situation where a result is rolled for (on the vehicle damage table) multiple times. Here (as in the pinning rules) the shooting is simultaneous and you do not wait until the end of the round (as in the pinning rules) yet, the results of each check will alter the later checks (specifically Weapon Destroyed and Immobilized altering later checks). Therefore, the simultaneous nature of pinning checks does not prevent multiple checks.

 

The pinning check is a binary check, this is true, a check is either demanded or not. I shall give two contrasting examples, in each case, three separate pinning weapons have hit and wounded a squad.

 

Option A (persistent check):

First wound tests for armor save, wound prevented by armor. No Pinning test is called for.

Second wound tests for armor save, not prevented by armor. A Pinning test is now called for.

Third wound tests for armor save, not prevented by armor. This result is ignored for the purposes of pinning.

Now test once for pinning.

 

Option B (immediate check):

First wound, as before. No Pinning test is called for.

Second wound, as before. A Pinning test is called for.

Immediately take this pinning test.

Third wound, as before. A Pinning test is called for.

Immediately take this pinning test.

 

I have three primary problems with Option A, the first is that 'overflow' results discarded and ignored for the purposes of pinning. This is not allowed by the rules, which demand that a pinning test be performed for the third wound. My second problem with option A is that one waits until the end of a units shooting to make the test. This conflicts with the rules which demand pinning test to be made immediately. The third problem I have with Option A is that, since there is no reference to the pinning weapons being in one or several units, the decision to wait until the end of one units shooting to resolve the pinning test is arbitrary. If the question "Do I need to take a pinning test" is answered 'Yes' once and then remains 'Yes' until you reset (persistent binary state), where in the rules do you know when to reset the flag? The previous edition told you to reset the flag after each unit's shooting, but that edition is no longer relevant here. Why not after each shot? each shooting round? each player turn? each game turn? each game? each 42 seconds? As the rules do not define how often to reset a persistent result, any of these answers are equally valid and arbitrary.

 

Therefore, I believe the correct method is immediate checks provoked by each weapon's firing.

 

Thank you for your time.

[SeattleDV8]

another problem with a test for each pinning shot is that after all shots and wounds are rolled you can go to ground before any saving throw. all shots from a unit happen as a group.