"Relentless" Chaos units

[Wolfbiter]

Hi all,

 

I just got my 5th Edition book. So far, I like it, but I'm trying to find a specific reference about the USR "Relentless" and so far I've had no luck.

 

Prior to its release, a number of people and the Bell of Lost Souls site said that the USR "Relentless" applies to bikes and Terminators. I was initially thrilled, as the frustratingly unclear wording in the new Chaos Codex confused me whether Chaos Terminators can move and shoot rapid-fire weapons at max range.

 

However, after scouring the new rulebook, I could find no reference to Terminators-loyalist or traitor-having Relentless. Didn't find it in the FAQ either.

 

If such a reference exists, can anyone point me to a page number or official FAQ link for the new rulebook regarding Relentless and whether it applies to Termies, please? (I don't even need a yea or nay if that would cause problems...just a page or link is fine) This is driving me nuts. Thanks.

[Seahawk]

No need to go insane; there is no wording anywhere that says terminators have Relentless, which is downright stupid considering that 5th was on its way and they included 5th edition USR's in C:CD a few months before 5th's release.

[TheDarkApostle]

Well, relentless is the rule of beign able to move and fire and thereafter charge no matter what sort of weapon you have. Basicly.

 

There should be some kind of wording in the terminator armor entry saying basicly the same, same wording should be found in the Bike type entry in the new rulebook IIRC.

 

TDA

[teh_perfesser]

You have to use the rules for Terminator Armor in the Codex. It's always been obvious to me what was meant by that rule--but I'm no rules lawyer.

 

I can see how that rule as it's written could mean that you don't get to move and fire rapid-fire at max range; it seems to almost specifically exclude that. Doesn't make a heck of a lot of sense to me that would be intended, but I'm not convinced any more.

[maniclurker]

Just take it our word... you can move and fire bolters full distants for chaos termies. Even if you can't find the specific rule, noone is going to argue that. I know they can, I just can't remember where it is that says they can.

[Onisuzume]

On page 53 it lists that all bikes have the relentless USR.

Dito for monstrous creatures(p51) and jet packs(p52).

 

No reference for terminators though.

[TheDarkApostle]

On page 53 it lists that all bikes have the relentless USR.

Dito for monstrous creatures(p51) and jet packs(p52).

 

No reference for terminators though.

My bet is that it's because bikes / jet packs / MC are something every army can take in one form or another while Terminators are a specific unit for some 3 armies and not a universal unit type after all.

 

TDA

[Brother Glacius]

***** Bikes, jet packs and monstrous are all different unit types. Terminators are just infantry, thus no rule book entry.

 

Page 86 of the CSM book clearly states termies can move and fire rapid & heavy weapons as if not moving, and can even assault after firing such weapons.

 

***** Brother G.

[teh_perfesser]

Page 86 of the CSM book clearly states termies can move and fire rapid & heavy weapons as if not moving, and can even assault after firing such weapons.

It doesn't state that, page 86 of the Codex states this (quote should be fine by 'fair usage' copyright laws):

"Models in terminator armour are capable of moving and firing with heavy weapons and may assault after firing rapid fire and heavy weapons."

 

As written, that means they may move, fire heavy weapons and assault. And they may fire rapid fire weapons and assault. It does not mean they may move, fire rapid fire weapons and assault.

 

In fact, it's so specific that the intent, as crazy as it seems, appears to be to disallow moving, firing rapid fire weapons and assaulting.

[TheDarkApostle]

Page 86 of the CSM book clearly states termies can move and fire rapid & heavy weapons as if not moving, and can even assault after firing such weapons.

It doesn't state that, page 86 of the Codex states this (quote should be fine by 'fair usage' copyright laws):

"Models in terminator armour are capable of moving and firing with heavy weapons and may assault after firing rapid fire and heavy weapons."

 

As written, that means they may move, fire heavy weapons and assault. And they may fire rapid fire weapons and assault. It does not mean they may move, fire rapid fire weapons and assault.

 

In fact, it's so specific that the intent, as crazy as it seems, appears to be to disallow moving, firing rapid fire weapons and assaulting.

Well, the ruleing DOES state that you can assault after fireing rapid fire weapons. And since you can fire rapid fire weapons after moving normally (albeit not at full range)...

 

"... and may assault after firing rapid fire ..."

 

To quote your own quote. :D

 

TDA

[Wazir]

But, can you rapid fire at FULL range?

[blamb]

You just count as not moving for shooting and not shooting for assaulting. So regular distances for rapid firing.

[teh_perfesser]

Well, the ruleing DOES state that you can assault after fireing rapid fire weapons. And since you can fire rapid fire weapons after moving normally (albeit not at full range)...

Ahhh yes, I often forget that there are other rules beyond the paragraph I am reading at any given moment. Maybe I would make a good rules lawyer when I grow up. :)

 

But, can you rapid fire at FULL range?

That was the original question, wasn't it? Thanks for reminding us.

 

To quote your own quote. :)

No using my own weapons against me! How dare you use my pompousness to demonstrate my ignorance! :)

[Verte]

Terminators can move and fire heavy weapons.

Terminators can move and fire rapid fire weapons at 12".

Terminators can assault after both the above scenarios.

Terminators CAN NOT move and fire rapid fire weapons once at maximum range, as there is no exception to the default rapid fire behaviour in their special rules in that regard and as a result the default rules governing rapid fire weapons apply. RAW in this case is counter intuitive, and most people play RAI in this case.

[maniclurker]

Somewhere in there it states that they don't count as moving for the purpose of firing. As such, you can shoot full distance.

[TheDarkApostle]

Somewhere in there it states that they don't count as moving for the purpose of firing. As such, you can shoot full distance.

Those with the Relentless rule yes, but Termiantors don't have it ;)

 

Also, in regard to the orignal question;

 

All Bikes and MCs are noted in the rulebook as having the "Relentless" rule. Another type to have it is the "Jet Pack" troops but we don't have any of those, we only have "Jump Pack" troops. Slight difference in the spelling but a huge difference in rules ;)

 

Terminators are not noted as having the "Relentless" rule in the Rlebook since they arn't a specific unit type but instead normal infantry with a special wargear upgrade. The shooting/assaulting rule changes are noted in the Terminator Armor entry as noted earlier in the thread.

 

That should answer everything there is :D

 

TDA

[Wolfbiter]

Thanks for the info and responses, all. I've been playing on the assumption that Chaos Termies don't move and shoot up to max range in this edition, and it looks like I will continue to do so. ;)

 

It actually doesn't bother me too much...now that I can attach Termie Chaos Lords and Termie Sorcerors to Deep striking termie units in 5th, range is much less of an issue, especially with homing icons (I like Deep Strike without scatter)! It's just so confusing, given that the Rapid Fire rules on Chaos Termies have been vaguely worded and re-erratta'd constantly since Third Edition!

 

What confused me were all the pre-release rumor threads saying that Relentless "applied to bikes and Terminators" but it looks like those were in error (as rumors sometimes are).

 

I just hope they don't make the Loyalist Termies Relentless in the upcoming codex, or I'm going to be an annoyed camper. (They hardly need it, as they have Storm Bolters). If said upcoming codex includes this change, I hope they will update the FAQs to allow DA, BA and Chaos Termies the same rule. But we'll see.

 

But again, thanks for the info and reassuring me that I wasn't crazy when I couldn't find the alleged reference in the new book. :)