Wound Allocation and Saving throws

[Catheras]

Hope some of you can clarify this one for me

 

Had a incident yesterday where i jumped out of My rhino with my sisters and used faith to invoke AP1 on 6 when wounding.

I fired at a squad of Marines, with heavy flamer, combi flamer and bolters causing 9 AP1 wounds and 8 normal wounds.

Not sure how many that was from the flamers, but i think it was 5 from flamers and 4 from bolters.

He elected to use GO to Ground.

 

This is where i had trouble......

1. How can he choose to assigne the wounds?

Is it possible for him to assign like this?

 

M=Marine A=AP1 F=Flamer AP1 N=Normal

 

M M M M M M M M M M

F N F N F N A N A N

F N F N A N A

 

or does he has to assign all the AP1 wounds first, filling up AP1 wounds on all the models?

 

2. Can he choose to take armor save for the bolter shots and cover save for the bolter AP1 shots, from what i read a model can only ever choose to take 1 type of save, but can individual models in a squad take different type of saves or does he have to take the 6+ cover save for alle the shots on all the models?

Obviously the AP1 Flamer wounds are impossible to get a cover save or any other save against (except Inv save wich he did'nt have).

 

3. Using the example in the book about wound allocation it seems it is possible to fail 2 Armor saves on a model that have 1 AP wound and 2 normal wounds and that those wounds has to be transferred to other models that are configured same as that model, is this right?

 

 

Hope there are someone out there that can sort out this mess

[Brother Drakk]

This is a really sticky situation. Unfortunately, i'm not too familiar with the wound allocation rules myself, so i can't help you too much on it. This is one of the reasons why i prefer sticking with 4th edition rules.

 

But i'm sure, since flamer wounds are automatic, that you can't give 2 guaranteed wounds on a 1 wound model. I think of it as, say you have 4 models, and 6 wounds. You roll 4 wounds first, then then the remaining 2 on the survivors

[njm3]

If his unit was not a complex unit, he should have rolled all the saves as a batch and removed a model for each failed save.

 

Assuming his unit was complex, say a vet sgt, a special weapon guy, and a heavy weapon (assume a 10 man tac squad:)

 

See complex units, p 25 and the diagram on that page

 

Assuming the squad was 10 models and you had 9Ap1 and 8 bolter wounds, a unit of 7 marines, a sgt. a special weapon, and a heavy weapon.

 

Thats 10 models with 17 wounds that need to be assigned. Each model will get 1 wound and 7 of them will get two.

 

Give the AP1 dice, two each, to four models (8 total ap1 wounds assigned)

Give the remaining AP1 die and one normal die to another marine

Two marines get 2 normal wounds

(everything assigned so far gets rolled as a single batch, and wounds failed carry over within that batch but not to the differently equipped guys) As you already have 8 AP1 dice assigned to this group of 7, just pick them up off the table. No saves, squish, just like grape.

The last three marines get 3 single bolter wounds (probably the sgt., special, and heavy). They roll individually, no carry over (but hey, they have one die on them anyway).

 

2. "Always use the best available save", p24. You only get one save per wounding die, but you use the best save for that specific wound.

 

3. Yes, all identical models roll as a batch and any wounds remove models, even if there were 2 wound dice assigned to a single model.

 

The easiest and simplest way to think of wound allocation is using differently colored dice. Each type of wound gets a different color. You place dice near each model, and can mix and match in any pattern or way you want as long as no model gets "too many" or "too few" dice. Once the dice are assigned, you roll in batches per type and remove a model for each failed save in that batch from the models in that batch. (note: this would involve your icky opponent touching your precious precious dice, since you should use the same dice to roll to hit as you do to wound as you do to save, to be the most efficient and quickest gamer possible. but yeah, that involves the unwashed stinkyman touching the precious precious dice).

 

Moral of the story? Put as much cheap specialty gear as you can on your squads, so you can mix and match wounds to save the guys you really want to.

[Catheras]

Thanks a lot njm3 <_< That was the easiest explanation i have seen on the matter, i got the answer earlier at 40konline but this was so much better explained.

 

I quoted you there to help out the ones that still managed to not understand it :P

[njm3]

Now this can lead to some gamey behavior and odd results. Consider this:

 

Two model complex unit (say a vet sgt and a marine).

 

You hit and wound twice with melta guns.

 

Zap. Dead. Remove. No chance of anyone walking away.

 

Ok, so instead, you hit/wound the same two guys with two melta and a boltpistol. Yes, that's more damage, the same weapons that would wipe out the squad PLUS another wound.

 

Put both melta on the trooper, the sgt. takes a save. Non-zero chance the sgt. walks away.

 

So yes, doing more damage/wounds can lead to a squad NOT being automatically removed. But AFAICT, you aren't forced to assign "high" (AP1 type) wounds one each across the unit, you can "double up" on some batches. Go figure.

[Cyber_Wulf]

yes you can double up on the really hurtful wounds from AP1 weapons etc but unless its a complex unit, its all in vain pretty much, as you take all same equipped troopers save's together all in one roll (or no roll and just die in the case of AP1 hits)

 

the only use for doubling up is when your in a devestator squad or such where there are expendable guys. ie. the expendable guys take the really hard hits as you wrap around all the normal; shots on the guys you want to survive.

[Yukka]

it seems to be very worthwhile adding the odd item here and there. i wonder if being able to put the ap1 shots on the same guy will be changed at any point.

[InquisitorPhred]

it seems to be very worthwhile adding the odd item here and there. i wonder if being able to put the ap1 shots on the same guy will be changed at any point.

It was perfectly legal in a 4th Ed Mixed Armor situation, I'd hope he carried it forward on purpose =)

 

What I have found extremely helpful in games, as a reduction of njm3's very good post, is the simple mantra, wounds are assigned to groups, not models, wounds are assigned to groups, not models, wounds are assigned to groups, not models.

 

Still a few players here it hasn't sunk in on =)

[SeattleDV8]

[

What I have found extremely helpful in games, as a reduction of njm3's very good post, is the simple mantra, wounds are assigned to groups, not models, wounds are assigned to groups, not models, wounds are assigned to groups, not models.

 

Still a few players here it hasn't sunk in on =)

Two excellent posts very clear and spot on. Phred i'm stealing your mantra...heh....and spreading the wisdom.

[Martellus]

Now this can lead to some gamey behavior and odd results. Consider this:

 

Two model complex unit (say a vet sgt and a marine).

 

You hit and wound twice with melta guns.

 

Zap. Dead. Remove. No chance of anyone walking away.

 

Ok, so instead, you hit/wound the same two guys with two melta and a boltpistol. Yes, that's more damage, the same weapons that would wipe out the squad PLUS another wound.

 

Put both melta on the trooper, the sgt. takes a save. Non-zero chance the sgt. walks away.

 

So yes, doing more damage/wounds can lead to a squad NOT being automatically removed. But AFAICT, you aren't forced to assign "high" (AP1 type) wounds one each across the unit, you can "double up" on some batches. Go figure.

 

+++njm,

 

Page 25 of the BBB contradicts this process in that "The player must allocate one wound to each [emphasis mine]model in the target unit before he can allocate a second wound to the same [emphasis mine] model" In your example of a two-marine complex unit in the open suffering 2 melta and a bolt pistol wounds would remove both models without a chance to make any armor saves. In this case, the sequencing of wound allocation is important. It should read as follows:

 

'The sergeant takes the bolt pistol wound, then allocate both melta wounds on the trooper. As both models were allocated a wound prior to the second melta wound being allocated to the trooper, the sergeant has a chance to survive.'

 

If the complex unit consisted of two bolter marines and a veteran sergeant, then the two melta wounds could be allocated to the bolter marines while the bolt pistol wound could be allocated to the veteran sergeant.

 

+++Inquisitor Phred and Seattle DV8,

 

In this case the manta should go 'wounds are allocated to models, saving throws are taken by groups.' Check the rules on page 25 under the topic of Complex Units and subtopic Taking Saving Throws, respectively. While I like Inquisitor Phred's catchy mantra, I think that it is ill-considered in light of the current rules set.

 

Martellus+++

[njm3]

The section you are quoting, those wounds are pre-save, the step before saving throws. You don't "look forward" and allocate based on impossible saves, you just assign wounding hits regardless of the weapon that fired them (while still keeping track of the type of wound for the armor save step which comes after).

 

I don't quite get your rephrasing or example. The unit received 3 wounds. Allocate them one wound each and then another to the first model. Assign the type of wounds in any order from any type of fire. You seem to be contradicting me, but I'm not quite sure how.

 

Could you clarify a bit, please?

[Martellus]

+++Perhaps it's a technique to allocate non-saveable wounds in any matter allowed as long as you ensure every model has a wound prior to allocating a second wound to each model. As I understand it now, wound allocation by weapon is not important and only important when determining armor saves. Thanks for clearing this up for me. ;)

 

This makes a good case for using different colored dice to avoid confusion and wasted time.

 

Martellus+++

[maniclurker]

The only thing I can say for everyone here, is to read the part about wound allocation very carefully. Slowley. Word for word. And compare with the picture. You will find that you can double up those instant kill type wounds on one generic bolter guy, even if there are multiple generic bolter guys.

 

Before you try to argue this, actually go and read it again.

[GTang]

If there are enough wounds allocated on a unit, you can double up two low AP value wounds on (say) a single model in a group of three of the same kind of models. But even if you save the other wounds on that group of three, you still have to remove two models from it. Because you assigned those two low AP value wounds on that model type.

 

Wounds are taken as a whole by models of the same type. Putting the dice out like this is a helpful way of keeping track.

[InquisitorPhred]

The only thing I can say for everyone here, is to read the part about wound allocation very carefully. Slowley. Word for word. And compare with the picture. You will find that you can double up those instant kill type wounds on one generic bolter guy, even if there are multiple generic bolter guys.

 

Before you try to argue this, actually go and read it again.

 

Sure you can, but it still kills two bolter guys. Note the example on p25, the two failed saves and the melta gun wound apply to all models with bolters, not just the guy the dice are on! The editorial remark by the author of the example is a little bit confusing, as if you really wanted to minimize risk in terms of # of models lost, you'd probably put the melta gun & two bolter wounds on the sart. Either way, editorial remarks about tactics don't change what the rule says!

[King_Pash]

Ok, ok, ok. This is getting confusing. So lets do an example and see if we all agree.

 

A 5-man tactical squad (1xsarge, 4xplebs) has been shot with 2xmelta 5xbolter shots. I allocate one (bolter) wound on the sarge, and the rest on the marines. That means two marines die straight away and the rest take the 4 bolter shots, agreed?

 

The only sneaky thing I can see is putting the melta shots on the sarge and takin the normal saves on the plebs. That would also be legal but if you wish to lose a valuable unit, go for it... :P

[njm3]

5 models, two groups, 7 wounds to assign.

 

Group one (Sgt.): assign 1 bolter shot

Group two: Assign 4 bolter shots and 2 melta.

 

The group two saves are taken as a batch. So yes, two marines die straight away and one is removed for every one of the 4 bolter shot saves failed, just like you said.

 

Sneaky option:

 

Two melta shots on the Sgt.

5 bolter shots on the marines.

 

Pick up the sgt. Four marines make 5 saves. Again, a valid option.

 

Not sure where the confusion is.

[King_Pash]

Me neither. It was just awfully over-worded by some other posters. Meh, all good now.