Defiler tactics

[mstrfshdws]

I was playing a friendly game the other day, and one of my compatriots was walking and fleeting his defiler along, when suddenly, the surrounding cover got a lot lower.

 

Now, a defiler is normally 6-7" tall, this guy made it about 4" tall (it has no head) in low cover by squashing it down on its legs which spread its legs out, but also made it impossible for our opponents to shoot it. While I thought this was cool in theory, especially when it fleeted over said cover to assault some loyalist scum so tactically inept, they didn't possess so much as a power fist, is this even remotely legal?

 

When I started playing this game, the models weren't that flexible.

 

Some other ideas I came up with to exploit this:

 

Moving the front of the model down so it blocks true line of sight.

 

Spreading the legs out to give max cover saves to advancing units behind

 

Standing up REALLY tall so units behind who have been getting the 4" can rush forward between its legs (very slaaneshi)

 

I think the ultimate jerk tactic would be to creep low, pop up, shoot and drop back down (I think this is realistic of the defiler, but utter cheese)

 

Any thoughts?

[Tfcdogbert]

I think its quite a cool idea, popping up and down, it makes for very fluid battlefields, and much more cinematic gaming stuff and makes it seem a lot more real as a game, but a rule would have to be, if you pop it up it has to stay up until your next turn, as people can shoot when it pops up and fires at them.

 

In principle its an awesome idea!

[sexiest_hero]

It's an idea that can work, but it's also a slippery slope, make sure the oppone is ok with you changing, the high of a unit during the game, i've seen people aready remove raptors from thier flying bases and put them on regular feet, a tzzench disk not on a flying base and a 20 unit of crawling berzerkers, if it's ok with your friends then go for it, but if somebody says they won't play them respect their opinion and move on.

[DuskRaider]

It just sounds so cheesy. You pick a large unit, you deal with the consequences. And to people who model their troops crouching or belly crawling: I'd still make them use the standard height. This is just getting ridiculous, what happened to playing for the fun, not the win???

[Seahawk]

Erm...defilers always stand only about 4" tall. Mine is 4" tall, and it's made completely normal:

 

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v232/veritas117/100_3694.jpg

 

And I agree with Duskraider, when shooting at models I use the typical size of the normal model, not how it's "kunnin'ly konverted." Those people are just dumb, unless it's for aesthetic purposes, such as the crouching sniping wraithlord. That's fine because it looks cool. Not the predator that has two rhino sides stacked vertically so it can shoot over anything, or the IG army of heads glued to bases (lurking through swamps my a--). There's no sense to modelling for advantages because it doesn't work.

[the jeske]

w40k was not made for models that can change shapes durning a battle . I will not go in to the idea of pop up head marines that shot from behind walls and go down for the opponents turn or the tanks with moving armor plates [well it does say you have to exit through the door , so if i make my rhino twice as long and one said is going to be able to flip in front I will get extra range equal to the rhinos lenght etc ]. I say no to ideas such as this because knowing the people playing here and how strickt they are with RAW , if someone would try to do this ,the game would degenerate too fast . also notice that GW doesnt like the "converted" models too in the 5th even the skimers have to use the supplied bases . all in all the defiler was a cool idea , but shouldnt have been made or at least they should sell him with a base and give the ruling that only his body gives cover /can be targeted etc.

[maniclurker]

Oh. Wow. Did someone really just start this topic?

 

You should just rename it. Something like "How to be an a-hole." Or, "I'm not good, so I have to cheat."

 

Models cannot very their height. Period.

 

Also, I'd roll to hit using a standard for what ever model I'm shooting at. Belly crawling marines... I don't think so.

[Freakiq]

You can not repose a model during a battle with the exception of aiming gun turrets.

 

Of course even if it was legal you can not move after shooting so your defiler would have to keep his head up.

[the jeske]

You can not repose a model during a battle with the exception of aiming gun turrets.

funny 99% defilers i saw in my gaming life had movable arms/legs . while its generally true that you cant repose a model , I dare you to try that when playing an army that uses defilers .

[mstrfshdws]

Not that I would ever actually pull this tactic, BUT, just for the sake of keeping people honest, I ran it past an ex-redshirt where I play and he said that even though there are no rules, if he were in charge, he would rule that the position your defiler was in when he deployed is the same position he must stay in for the length of the game. Between games, you can reposition him no problem, but not during games.

[maniclurker]

If it's legal, then that sucks. I would simply refuse to play someone who uses these tactics.

 

The thought that someone would try to do stuff like this makes my stomach squeamish.

[Joah from Alberta]

Man oh man, people do really need cheese with your whine. I say it's *about time that the defiler can actually use an edge. For too long has it been popped and for too long has it been the useless freak on the battlefield. I say good if you can use your models dynamically during play.

[Freakiq]

Man oh man, people do really need cheese with your whine. I say it's *about time that the defiler can actually use an edge. For too long has it been popped and for too long has it been the useless freak on the battlefield. I say good if you can use your models dynamically during play.

 

As long as you don't reose it other than in your movement phase or when fleeting or assaulting.

 

I'd probably just walk away if someone reposed it in my turn just to avoid being shot.

[benno_wallace]

I made this defiler almost 2 years ago, for all that time every time I bring it out people comment on a great conversion. I seriosuly fear that people will now say what a cheesy conversion, ruining all my hard work. I've never been a cheesy player, I loose and draw more games than I win by a long shot. Last thing I need want is to be called cheesy for this

 

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v394/benno_wallace/temppictures021.jpg

[the jeske]

well its smaller then the normal defiler . it also has weapon slots in different places .also how do you work out which one of the reapers is the real one . 5th change the way you draw LoS and check distance . same with the flamers changed placement gives it more range and with the no partial rule it equals more hits . when on top of this you can gaine 1" of range byt only moving the body [legs stay in the same place ] you know one of the reasones , why I dont like defilers .

[Playa]

Hey,

 

people will now say what a cheesy conversion, ruining all my hard work

 

A couple things that I consider truisms:

 

Nothing you can legally do will keep people from complaining. There are plenty of illegal options, but that's another thread . . .

At best, you can conduct yourself in a manner that gives you the peace of mind that springs from the knowledge that fools are safely ignored.

 

to be called cheesy for this

 

Modeling an Autocannon/ Ordnance Dread *lower* is okay by me:

 

Modelling Shooty Units *taller* to exploit the TLoS rule will occur to many.

As an exploit though, it's self-regulatory - if you can see me, I can see you.

However, avoiding this downside with "popup" nonsense is straight-up cheating.

 

In this light, lowered Shooty Dreads are a non-issue. :- )

 

Conversely, *lowering* Fighty Units will be no less obvious to certain types.

Granted, one or two belly-crawling Berzerkers look cool. But 10? 20? No.

Not *every model* in an Infantry Unit that wants to avoid Shooting!

 

"I done it like that cuz it's cool, or fluffy ... or somethin." won't cut it under 5th.

I've heard the dickhammer excuses already, and none were very convincing.

Listen to the hard-working little "artist" squeal when you call their bluff -

 

"Really? If you liked converting them that much, you'll just *love* redoing them!"

"If the sight of heads glued to bases fills your heart with joy, then be happy. At home."

"No, I'm afraid I don't agree that those ... things ... 'count-as' 28mm Infantry. Guess why."

 

Statistically, there'll be just as many weenies in 5th as there were in 4th. [shrug] We'll just have to deal.

Knowing what *not* to care about will be a part of that. Shooty Units and tall Fighty Units are on that list in my book.

 

YMMV.

 

 

Playa

[Maddog176]

I think the biggest thing to remember with if its been done for modeling or a exploit is simply looking at it. If it looks nice, awesome and they have spent lots of time in it then you know its for a modeling or artistic purpose. The ones trying to exploit will generally look like <DELETED BY THE INQUISITION> and be very half arsed. At least thats how i see it will happen most of the time. And i think the only place this will be a problem is in Tornies because in friendly games you can just walk away but in a tornie you have paid to enter and want to try to win a prize or have a fair game.

[L0NEW0LF]

well i regularly use my brass scorpion as a defiler (very rarely play apoc) never had a problem

allthough the main body is way lower the tail sticking up sort of evens things out.

and the fact the flamers+battlecannon are lower down only hinders me not my opponent

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v230/lonewolf_dcc/0033.jpg

[the jeske]

The ones trying to exploit will generally look like <DELETED BY THE INQUISITION> and be very half arsed.

well you havent seen a lot of tournament armies then . those are alway studio painted to get max paint score .

[DuskRaider]

Yeah, if anything my Defiler is actually TALLER then the norm. It's a Vindicator on Defiler legs, looks awesome and I don't care if it causes me problems with LoS.

[Spacefrisian]

My defiler has also been lowered but that was before 5th ed was anounced. If i play it now i just say that its height is that of the original one (6" i think). Also because of the following "don't be stupid". The guy who put its defiler down to get the cover obvious forgot about this.