Legatus Posted September 13, 2008 Share Posted September 13, 2008 Yeah, I am really glad the unit is gone from the army list. But I heared they are still mentioned somewhere, in Cassius' background probably. Also, as a new offense to my fluff sense, now there are veteran assault squads... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/141531-brother-pariahs-review-the-killing-ground/page/2/#findComment-1692071 Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Emperor's Champion Posted September 13, 2008 Share Posted September 13, 2008 TWVs still make perfect sense (but apparently THAT argument just runs in little circles) and Vanguard make EVEN MORE sense! How can you argue against guys who have centuries of Assault Marine experience being allowed to continue with what they are best at when they become Veterans? It'd be ludicrous to waste all that combat experience. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/141531-brother-pariahs-review-the-killing-ground/page/2/#findComment-1692134 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legatus Posted September 13, 2008 Share Posted September 13, 2008 Vanguards are not better fighters than Sternguards or Terminators. They simply have jump packs strapped to their backs, instead of closing in on the enemy via Drop Pod, Teleport or Rhino/Land Raider. Veteran squads (traditional) and Terminators can fulfill several roles and are excelent fighters as well as having some ranged firepower. Assault Terminators are highly specialised close combat troops and are even more deadly than vanguard veterans. I can understand that some players want even stronger jump infantry like Blood Angels have (which till now was one of the few points where they strayed from the Codex Astartes), but there is no real fluff reason why a power armoured veteran squad should be limited to fight in close combat instead of being allrounders that can be sent into the enemies face by different means of transportation instead of giving up all of their ranged capabilities for personal devices of mobility. I read that there is a new fluff for tactical marines that is supposed to apologetically explain why only marines that are troop choices can hold mission objectives. Appearently being a tactical marine is the highest form of Space Marine one can be outside of the 1st company, and assault and devastator marines have not yet developed the all around abilities. A marine has to be promoted and served as a tactical marine before he will be considered for promotion to the 1st company. So on the one hand they explain that tactical squads are the most efficient and capable space marine squads, but on the other hand they are not content with veterans being organised like a tactical squad and instead present the new and more specialised vanguard veterans. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/141531-brother-pariahs-review-the-killing-ground/page/2/#findComment-1692154 Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Emperor's Champion Posted September 13, 2008 Share Posted September 13, 2008 Well Ultramarines prefer to have troops trained to handle any situation but they still recognize the importance of specialists. I do seem to remember Scouts becoming Assault Marines and Devastators first and only later becoming Tactical Marines (tho I have no idea where I remember that from). It also fits with the fact that Command Squad Veterans are pulled from Tactical Squads. The idea of specialized Veterans tho is a silly complaint. There have always been Tactical and Assault Terminators, why WOULDN'T those Veteran Marines use the same concept when they put on their Power Armor? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/141531-brother-pariahs-review-the-killing-ground/page/2/#findComment-1692192 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legatus Posted September 13, 2008 Share Posted September 13, 2008 There have always been Tactical and Assault Terminators Not in 2nd Edition. Which basically means Deathwing squads are actually organised just like Terminator squads used to be back in 2nd Edition, while Codex Marines go with the distinction established in 3rd Edition. That actually makes the Codex Dark Angels even more attractive for me to use for my Ultramarines (which in the end I will probably not do after all). why WOULDN'T those Veteran Marines use the same concept when they put on their Power Armor? Because designating 10 Veterans to do nothing but fight close combat is a greater specialisation and dedication than designating 5 Assault Terminators? Because close combat is allways dangerous and veterans in power armour are not as well protected and suited for close combat as Terminators? Because that has not been done in the past 10 years and instead has been a distinct deviation from Codex organisation employed by the Blood Angels? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/141531-brother-pariahs-review-the-killing-ground/page/2/#findComment-1692211 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Techmarine Data007 Posted September 13, 2008 Share Posted September 13, 2008 I do seem to remember Scouts becoming Assault Marines and Devastators first and only later becoming Tactical Marines (tho I have no idea where I remember that from) Although I can't quote it, the passage you're referring to makes mention that when a Scout is ready to be a Battle Brother, he is placed in the Reserve Company most fitting to his abilities from the Scout Company. Which, to me says that a Sniper Scout is much more likely to be a Devastator than an Assault Marine. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/141531-brother-pariahs-review-the-killing-ground/page/2/#findComment-1692226 Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Emperor's Champion Posted September 13, 2008 Share Posted September 13, 2008 There have always been Tactical and Assault Terminators Not in 2nd Edition. Which basically means Deathwing squads are actually organised just like Terminator squads used to be back in 2nd Edition, while Codex Marines go with the distinction established in 3rd Edition. That actually makes the Codex Dark Angels even more attractive for me to use for my Ultramarines (which in the end I will probably not do after all). why WOULDN'T those Veteran Marines use the same concept when they put on their Power Armor? Because designating 10 Veterans to do nothing but fight close combat is a greater specialisation and dedication than designating 5 Assault Terminators? Because close combat is allways dangerous and veterans in power armour are not as well protected and suited for close combat as Terminators? Because that has not been done in the past 10 years and instead has been a distinct deviation from Codex organisation employed by the Blood Angels? You do love to argue silly things don't you? There have always been Veteran melee squads, they just haven't always had Jump Packs. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/141531-brother-pariahs-review-the-killing-ground/page/2/#findComment-1692240 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Idaho Posted September 13, 2008 Share Posted September 13, 2008 I dunno, I thought that was a 3rd edition thing. 2nd edition had Terminators and Veterans that were equipped and fought as Tacticals. Though in 2nd edition they were still pretty tasty in CC. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/141531-brother-pariahs-review-the-killing-ground/page/2/#findComment-1692244 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legatus Posted September 13, 2008 Share Posted September 13, 2008 There have always been Veteran melee squads Well, not in 2nd Edition. It (verean assault squads) is a change from the previous in detail explained organisation of a space marine chapter, and I am not really keen on that. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/141531-brother-pariahs-review-the-killing-ground/page/2/#findComment-1692248 Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Emperor's Champion Posted September 13, 2008 Share Posted September 13, 2008 Ok, well I find it relatively dumb to argue according to 2nd edition since a lot of that isn't relevant anymore anyways. 3rd Edition is pretty much the point where Marines had fully evolved into their form as used ever since. I can't name anything from the 3rd Edition Codex that hasn't kept existing in one form or another ever since, while 1st and 2nd Edition have a lot of bits overwritten entirely. Black Templars a Codex Chapter, 20 Terminator Squads???? No longer true at all. 2nd Edition was just the foundation for everything else, not the final word. How the heck did we get so far off topic???? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/141531-brother-pariahs-review-the-killing-ground/page/2/#findComment-1692260 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legatus Posted September 13, 2008 Share Posted September 13, 2008 3rd Edition is pretty much the point where Marines had fully evolved into their form as used ever since. 3rd Edition made only minor changes to the army list compared to 2nd Edition. Mainly everything was a lot less strictly organised, units were bought in squads of between 5-10 men instead of full squads of 10. I can't name anything from the 3rd Edition Codex that hasn't kept existing in one form or another ever since Oh, I can. But that is not really much of a statement, considering there has only been one other codex since the one from 3rd Edition. Anyway, here are someof the changes from 3rd to 4th Edition: HQ - Characters can be bought as upgrades for other characters retinues (changes again in 5th) - No more "Leaders" and "Commanders", instead, back to proper "Captains" - Chaplains and Librarians are compareable in their combat abilities to Captains (changes again in 5th) - Command Squad marines are not veterans anymore (changes again in 5th) - Terminator Command squads are newly available (changes again in 5th) ELITE - Terminators can get dedicated Land Raider transports - The Terminator with Cyclone Missile Launcher keeps his powerfist now - Assault Terminators are not allowed to have Stormbolter and Powerfist/Chainfist anymore - Veterans can get special close combat weapons instead of the typical tactical weapon options - (in 5th, the current Veterans are split into dedicated tactical veterans with no ccw options and dedicated assault veterans) - Dreadnoughts cannot get twin-linked heavy bolters, twin-linked auto cannons or plasma cannons anymore (changes again in 5th) - Techmarines can now operate as individualy, instead of being part of the commanders retinue TROOPS - Scouts cannot get autocannons anymore - Tactical squads can now get multimeltas and plasma cannons (and will change in 5th) FAST ATTACK - Assault Squads gain access to flamers (gain transport option on 5th) - (Bike squads will go from 3-5 to 3-8 in 5th) - Attack Bikes operate in squadrons of 2-3 now (changes again in 5th) - (Scout Bike squads will go from 3-5 to 3-10 in 5th) - all Land Speeder variants are now fielded in squadrons and can be mixed (will also gain new weapon combinations in 5th) HEAVY SUPPORT - Land Raider Crusader as new variant - (no more strict distinction between predator variants in 5th) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/141531-brother-pariahs-review-the-killing-ground/page/2/#findComment-1692345 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commissar Molotov Posted September 13, 2008 Share Posted September 13, 2008 Vanguards are not better fighters than Sternguards or Terminators. They simply have jump packs strapped to their backs, instead of closing in on the enemy via Drop Pod, Teleport or Rhino/Land Raider. Actually, in the new Codex the Vanguard are allowed to drop the packs and buy a transport. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/141531-brother-pariahs-review-the-killing-ground/page/2/#findComment-1692349 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Idaho Posted September 13, 2008 Share Posted September 13, 2008 Actually in the new Codex they come without jump packs and have to buy them. Personally I will just stick to the humble Assault squad, as they are dead cheap in the new Codex. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/141531-brother-pariahs-review-the-killing-ground/page/2/#findComment-1692389 Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Emperor's Champion Posted September 13, 2008 Share Posted September 13, 2008 3rd Edition is pretty much the point where Marines had fully evolved into their form as used ever since. 3rd Edition made only minor changes to the army list compared to 2nd Edition. Mainly everything was a lot less strictly organised, units were bought in squads of between 5-10 men instead of full squads of 10. I can't name anything from the 3rd Edition Codex that hasn't kept existing in one form or another ever since Oh, I can. But that is not really much of a statement, considering there has only been one other codex since the one from 3rd Edition. Anyway, here are someof the changes from 3rd to 4th Edition: HQ - Characters can be bought as upgrades for other characters retinues (changes again in 5th) - No more "Leaders" and "Commanders", instead, back to proper "Captains" - Chaplains and Librarians are compareable in their combat abilities to Captains (changes again in 5th) - Command Squad marines are not veterans anymore (changes again in 5th) - Terminator Command squads are newly available (changes again in 5th) ELITE - Terminators can get dedicated Land Raider transports - The Terminator with Cyclone Missile Launcher keeps his powerfist now - Assault Terminators are not allowed to have Stormbolter and Powerfist/Chainfist anymore - Veterans can get special close combat weapons instead of the typical tactical weapon options - (in 5th, the current Veterans are split into dedicated tactical veterans with no ccw options and dedicated assault veterans) - Dreadnoughts cannot get twin-linked heavy bolters, twin-linked auto cannons or plasma cannons anymore (changes again in 5th) - Techmarines can now operate as individualy, instead of being part of the commanders retinue TROOPS - Scouts cannot get autocannons anymore - Tactical squads can now get multimeltas and plasma cannons (and will change in 5th) FAST ATTACK - Assault Squads gain access to flamers (gain transport option on 5th) - (Bike squads will go from 3-5 to 3-8 in 5th) - Attack Bikes operate in squadrons of 2-3 now (changes again in 5th) - (Scout Bike squads will go from 3-5 to 3-10 in 5th) - all Land Speeder variants are now fielded in squadrons and can be mixed (will also gain new weapon combinations in 5th) HEAVY SUPPORT - Land Raider Crusader as new variant - (no more strict distinction between predator variants in 5th) Very little if any of that has anything to do with changing what is already established in the fluff. It's all just various interpretations due to finagling stuff into the form of a highly simplified set of rules. If everything was reinterpreted into a more accurate numerical form such as the 3.5 D&D rules it would be, yet again, different and subject to a totally different form of game balance. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/141531-brother-pariahs-review-the-killing-ground/page/2/#findComment-1692391 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legatus Posted September 13, 2008 Share Posted September 13, 2008 Very little if any of that has anything to do with changing what is already established in the fluff. I would say these are th emost substantial, in light of organisational background: - No more "Leaders" and "Commanders", instead, back to proper "Captains" - Command Squad marines are not veterans anymore (changes again in 5th) - Terminator Command squads are newly available (changes again in 5th) - The Terminator with Cyclone Missile Launcher keeps his powerfist now - Veterans can get special close combat weapons instead of the typical tactical weapon options - Assault Squads gain access to flamers (gain transport option on 5th) - Land Raider Crusader as new variant Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/141531-brother-pariahs-review-the-killing-ground/page/2/#findComment-1692468 Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Emperor's Champion Posted September 13, 2008 Share Posted September 13, 2008 Very little if any of that has anything to do with changing what is already established in the fluff. I would say these are th emost substantial, in light of organisational background: - No more "Leaders" and "Commanders", instead, back to proper "Captains" - Command Squad marines are not veterans anymore (changes again in 5th) - Terminator Command squads are newly available (changes again in 5th) - The Terminator with Cyclone Missile Launcher keeps his powerfist now - Veterans can get special close combat weapons instead of the typical tactical weapon options- - Assault Squads gain access to flamers (gain transport option on 5th) - Land Raider Crusader as new variant - This has nothing to do with changing fluff. This is because not all Chapters have a "Captain" or "Chapter Master", e.g. the Kahns and Great Kahn of the White Scars. - This was probably just an error because it's not very well known that Command Squad Marines are Veterans. Most of everyone is under the impression that only the 1st has Veterans. - Well... I can't explain where they went in 5th Edition, but they certainly made a lot of sense. No doubt the orgin of the squad came along side Chapter Traits to help represent Chapter who do make use of Terminators as Command Squads. - One of the many small innovations the Adeptus Mechanicus occasionally makes? - Logical improvement of armaments over a simple Chainsword. Somehow I doubt the Codex ever says "even if you have a pile of extra Power Weapons laying around the Veterans must always use the basic Chainsword". Could also be explained by improved variety for Chapter variance. Could also be explained be revised interpretation of the Codex. - Assault Squads make more sense with Flamers than anyone else. Maybe they just didn't see the point back in the days before the Tyranids? Assault Squads got Rhinos BACK. They were always supposed to have them. - Yea. So? This is noted in the fluff. The Black Templars invented it and the Adeptus Mechanicus approved them for everyone. Something you totally fail to consider, and really need to (especially where the 4th Codex is concerned), is that just because it's in the Codex: Space Marines doesn't mean the Ultramarines make use of it. A lot of it is to allow the variation between Chapters. You also need to understand that you really have no idea what the Codex Astartes says and everything we see from edition to edition could easily be in there. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/141531-brother-pariahs-review-the-killing-ground/page/2/#findComment-1692482 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legatus Posted September 13, 2008 Share Posted September 13, 2008 - This has nothing to do with changing fluff. This is because not all Chapters have a "Captain" or "Chapter Master", e.g. the Kahns and Great Kahn of the White Scars. Perhaps the "commander" was meant to represent the khans and marshals (instead of simply pointing out that some chapter might call their company force commanders "khan" or "marshal"), but the leader clearly was a less experienced marine below the rank of captain who individually commanded a force. - This was probably just an error because it's not very well known that Command Squad Marines are Veterans. Most of everyone is under the impression that only the 1st has Veterans. How could anyone ever get that idear... Well, command squads are an invention of 3rd Edition, and it was never explained in detail where the marines actually came from. Being able to equip them with terminator honours did not help, as squads from a battle company should not really have those. - Logical improvement of armaments over a simple Chainsword. Somehow I doubt the Codex ever says "even if you have a pile of extra Power Weapons laying around the Veterans must always use the basic Chainsword". Could also be explained by improved variety for Chapter variance. Could also be explained be revised interpretation of the Codex.- Assault Squads make more sense with Flamers than anyone else. Maybe they just didn't see the point back in the days before the Tyranids? Assault Squads got Rhinos BACK. They were always supposed to have them. In 2nd Edition, every single member of an assault squad could be equipped with special close combat weapons. I am still wondering where they are now. But instead of giving assault squads the weapons, GW puts in awhole new type of assault unit. - Yea. So? This is noted in the fluff. It is still a change in the list, no? Something you totally fail to consider, and really need to (especially where the 4th Codex is concerned), is that just because it's in the Codex: Space Marines doesn't mean the Ultramarines make use of it. It is hard to tell myself that if the new models are presented by GW as Ultramarines first. You also need to understand that you really have no idea what the Codex Astartes says and everything we see from edition to edition could easily be in there. The organisation of a chapter is one of the more well documented bit of background of 40K. "A battle company hat 10 squads of 10 marines, 6 of which are tactical squads, 2 are assault squads and 2 are devastator squads" is pretty straight forward and does not leave much to interpretation. If there were no assault veterans mentioned anywhere in the last 3 codices that is very much confirmation that there was no such unit formation outlined in the codex astartes. Sure, GW can change what the codex astartes supposedly says, but that does not feel right. Just like with the TWVs. If the Ultramarines can just decide that they want something changed in the codex astartes, that makes any form of dedication very much pointless. "But sir, that is not how it is teached in the codex astartes." "Well..." *scribblescribble* "now it is." Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/141531-brother-pariahs-review-the-killing-ground/page/2/#findComment-1692507 Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Emperor's Champion Posted September 13, 2008 Share Posted September 13, 2008 Perhaps the "commander" was meant to represent the khans and marshals (instead of simply pointing out that some chapter might call their company force commanders "khan" or "marshal"), but the leader clearly was a less experienced marine below the rank of captain who individually commanded a force. How could anyone ever get that idear... Well, command squads are an invention of 3rd Edition, and it was never explained in detail where the marines actually came from. Being able to equip them with terminator honours did not help, as squads from a battle company should not really have those. In 2nd Edition, every single member of an assault squad could be equipped with special close combat weapons. I am still wondering where they are now. But instead of giving assault squads the weapons, GW puts in awhole new type of assault unit. It is still a change in the list, no? It is hard to tell myself that if the new models are presented by GW as Ultramarines first. The organisation of a chapter is one of the more well documented bit of background of 40K. "A battle company hat 10 squads of 10 marines, 6 of which are tactical squads, 2 are assault squads and 2 are devastator squads" is pretty straight forward and does not leave much to interpretation. If there were no assault veterans mentioned anywhere in the last 3 codices that is very much confirmation that there was no such unit formation outlined in the codex astartes. Sure, GW can change what the codex astartes supposedly says, but that does not feel right. Just like with the TWVs. If the Ultramarines can just decide that they want something changed in the codex astartes, that makes any form of dedication very much pointless. - "Leader" needs to be put back in the Codex since it was the most fluffy commander option most of the time. You'd almost NEVER see a Captain leading such a small skirmish force. The Leader was simply the Sergeant in charge of the mission. - Terminator Honors was an odd mishmash of fluff and rules that really shouldn't have existed. Terminator Honors basically meant "Veteran Attack" because the Terminator training actually has no impact on a Marine outside of Terminator armor. Basically all the Command Squad Veterans had the ability to take a "Veteran Attack" but the WYSIWYG way of showing it was the same as Terminator Honors. Or we could be wrong and Command Squad Veterans might actually be able to get Terminator training while waiting for entry into the 1st Company. *shrug* - The "whole new type of assault unit" which was previously just lumped under "Veterans" took all their special gear. :ph34r: - So in your mind no one in the 40k universe should ever discover or innovate a new tank? - I meant stuff like Flamers in Assault Squads (which seems aimed at Salamander armies), and Terminator Command Squads (which GW has never shown for the Ultramarines). - That's true, but most well documented doesn't mean jack if it means we only have a handful of paragraphs out of a vast encyclopedia vs a couple of sentences from any other source. Like I said before, Assault Veterans weren't explicitly mentioned because they were just lumped under Veteran Space Marines together with the Sternguard. That may not have been the original intent, but it is clear now. The TWVs aren't an arbitrary break with the Codex. When you are the master of over a thousand of the greatest warriors in the galaxy and you nearly get wiped out of existence by an unforeseen threat against which nothing you know of works... and you spend months meditating on this problem and consulting all 1500ish of your warriors...and the majority of those equally dedicated warriors are in agreement that something needs to change to fix the problem with the alternative of being wiped out and no longer serving The Emperor and his Imperium, you WOULD find room for change. Or maybe that's just me because I feel it would be well beyond moronic not to. Anyhow it seems apparent that the lessons learned by the TWVs has been mostly assimilated into core Sternguard doctrine. EDIT: Behold! my new and improved signature! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/141531-brother-pariahs-review-the-killing-ground/page/2/#findComment-1692539 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legatus Posted September 13, 2008 Share Posted September 13, 2008 - "Leader" needs to be put back in the Codex since it was the most fluffy commander option most of the time. You'd almost NEVER see a Captain leading such a small skirmish force. The Leader was simply the Sergeant in charge of the mission. In the (now obsolete) patrol games (400 points) there was no HQ unit required. Voila, one of the sergeants is in charge of the 10-20 marines. In 1000+ point games with 40+ marines, the presence of a Captain is well justified. If the company is scattered and operates in different areas, the Captain is bound to be with one of those forces. But they might be lead by a Chaplain or Librarian as well. - So in your mind no one in the 40k universe should ever discover or innovate a new tank? I though we were talking about changes in the army list and its fluff. But admittedly, utilising a newly developed vehicle is much more easy to justify than to form a new unit type that has not been necessary in the last 10,000 years. - I meant stuff like Flamers in Assault Squads (which seems aimed at Salamander armies), and Terminator Command Squads (which GW has never shown for the Ultramarines). Well, the exemplary illustration next to the army list entry for terminator command squads shows an ultramarine terminator. The terminators accompanying the chaplain on page 55 are supposed to be a terminator command squad as well (it is in the HQ section, the elite section starts at teh next page, where regular terminator squads and terminator assault squads are displayed). The book does not show an ultramarines assault squad wit hflamers, but since assault squads could get special weapons in 2nd edition I would actually not mind. - That's true, but most well documented doesn't mean jack if it means we only have a handful of paragraphs out of a vast encyclopedia vs a couple of sentences from any other source. Like I said before, Assault Veterans weren't explicitly mentioned because they were just lumped under Veteran Space Marines together with the Sternguard. The 2nd Edition Codex Ultramarines was quite specific in saying that Veteran squads are organised like tactical squads. The Codex Angels of Death was liekwise specific in saying that contrary to other chapters that organise their veterans like tactical squads, they prefer to equip them like assault squads. When you are the master of over a thousand of the greatest warriors in the galaxy and you nearly get wiped out of existence by an unforeseen threat against which nothing you know of works... It seemed to work at macragge. It was of unexpected magnitude, mostly. and you spend months meditating on this problem and consulting all 1500ish of your warriors...and the majority of those equally dedicated warriors are in agreement that something needs to change to fix the problem with the alternative of being wiped out and no longer serving The Emperor and his Imperium But that was not the case at all. Like any chapter without specialised anti tyranid units is completely obilterated by them? If Space Wolves ever bump into some Tyranids they are screwed? Do Ultramarines need to specialise where other chapters can do without? There is no justification to change to the 10,000 year tested doctrines at all. Or maybe that's just me because I feel it would be well beyond moronic not to. Well, you and someone working for GW. The other chapters seem to be doing allright. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/141531-brother-pariahs-review-the-killing-ground/page/2/#findComment-1692592 Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Emperor's Champion Posted September 13, 2008 Share Posted September 13, 2008 "But that was not the case at all. Like any chapter without specialised anti tyranid units is completely obilterated by them? If Space Wolves ever bump into some Tyranids they are screwed? Do Ultramarines need to specialise where other chapters can do without? There is no justification to change to the 10,000 year tested doctrines at all." That's exactly how it went down, and yes, the Scythes Of The Emperor have been effectively wiped out by the Tyranids and ever their testimony was heard while debating the creation of the Tyrannic War Veterans. Space Wolves have a totally different doctrine and theirs apparently works well enough against the Tyranids, plus no other Chapter has ever faced a full Hive Fleet at once so there's no fair comparisons. "The 2nd Edition Codex Ultramarines was quite specific in saying that Veteran squads are organised like tactical squads." Sure, 9 Marines and a Sergeant, Power Armor, Bolter, Bolt Pistols, grenades..... Vanguard only have an additional Chainsword and Jump Pack. Close enough that one could say they're organized and equipped like Tactical Squads if one felt like it. "Well, the exemplary illustration next to the army list entry for terminator command squads shows an ultramarine terminator. The terminators accompanying the chaplain on page 55 are supposed to be a terminator command squad as well (it is in the HQ section, the elite section starts at teh next page, where regular terminator squads and terminator assault squads are displayed)." And yet they are a normal Terminator Squad rather than one with mixed weapons. Clearly they're just a squad who the Chaplain joined and is only a Command Squad by association rather than the official type Dark Angels use. In the (now obsolete) patrol games (400 points) there was no HQ unit required. Voila, one of the sergeants is in charge of the 10-20 marines. In 1000+ point games with 40+ marines, the presence of a Captain is well justified. If the company is scattered and operates in different areas, the Captain is bound to be with one of those forces. But they might be lead by a Chaplain or Librarian as well. Companies commonly fight in more than 2 places at once and Librarians aren't actually part of a Company and are infrequently on hand to lead troops. More often than not forces are deployed lead by Sergeants, and an average 40k game sized Marine army is just about the size force they would be in command of. This is also the reason I find it silly that Command Squads are assumed to be unbuyable independent of a Captain or Chapter Master (tho they ARE officially in 5th now) when they seem clearly marked as just another HQ choice with the option of being an upgrade for an Independent Character, and would explain where the commanding Sergeants disappeared to. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/141531-brother-pariahs-review-the-killing-ground/page/2/#findComment-1692603 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legatus Posted September 13, 2008 Share Posted September 13, 2008 That's exactly how it went down, and yes, the Scythes Of The Emperor have been effectively wiped out by the Tyranids Has there never before been a chapter decimated or wiped out by other threats? Have other marine forces successfully faced Tyranids? No, yes and period. Sure, 9 Marines and a Sergeant, Power Armor, Bolter, Bolt Pistols, grenades..... Vanguard only have an additional Chainsword and Jump Pack. Close enough that one could say they're organized and equipped like Tactical Squads if one felt like it. And assault squads are very much identical to tactical squads. And yet they are a normal Terminator Squad rather than one with mixed weapons. Clearly they're just a squad who the Chaplain joined and is only a Command Squad by association rather than the official type Dark Angels use. I was more thinking of the unit utilisation but you are of cource right in that the squad presented there is not equipped differently than a regular terminator squad. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/141531-brother-pariahs-review-the-killing-ground/page/2/#findComment-1692614 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Pariah Posted September 14, 2008 Author Share Posted September 14, 2008 Imperial jetbikes, Dark Angel Ravenwing. Ork's having bolters, Just because they're not CALLED bolters... Eldar having lasguns, A lasblaster by another name. Marines having shuriken catapults Well, you're right about THAT one. and the Squats! Mentioned in the latest Ravenor novel, most recently. So now we can be at ease knowing that we never broke from the Codex and inducted a specialist squad into our first company at all! Even before they were revised out of the timeline (or WHATEVER you call it) we never BROKE with the Codex, we just AMENDED it. Like we have many times over the last 10,000 years. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/141531-brother-pariahs-review-the-killing-ground/page/2/#findComment-1692699 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legatus Posted September 14, 2008 Share Posted September 14, 2008 We also amended history with a few extra hive fleets just so it would be at least a little bit justified (and the extra expertise could actually have been gotten somewhere). Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/141531-brother-pariahs-review-the-killing-ground/page/2/#findComment-1692751 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kurgan the Lurker Posted September 14, 2008 Share Posted September 14, 2008 Hmmm...seems a mutant has climbed into the Navigators pod at the last stop cause this topic is waaaaaaaaay off course. Time to grant this one the Emperor's Absolution. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/141531-brother-pariahs-review-the-killing-ground/page/2/#findComment-1692781 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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