flintlocklaser Posted July 21, 2008 Share Posted July 21, 2008 I've been in here before to try and get advice about putting together a Purge list, and now that my Black Templars are almost all assembled I need to start thinking about making someone for them to play with! So I've been doing some Listhammer, and I've re-realized a problem that was pointed out to me when I was in here looking for biker advice - the Icon of Nurgle. As a Purge list, it seems obvious that my units should either have the IoCG or the IoN if possible - but the problem is that the IoN is so expensive for what it does! I can't see spending the points on it for a 10 man CSM squad when I could just field Plague Marines instead and gain FNP for not much more. On my FA slot (bikers) the good advice I got in here earlier pretty much pointed out the silliness of spending an extra 5 (for a 10-bike squad, which I can't see myself fielding) to 17 (for a 3-bike squad which is more likely) points for a bump from T4(5) to T4(6). But are there any good places to spend the points on an IoN? For backstory purposes I will be fielding a lot of Terminators and possibly a squad of Chosen; fluff-wise it would make sense to give these guys the IoN, as they're probably more devout/infected than the rank-and-file. But will the points be worth it? If I fill all 3 elite slots and give them all the IoN that's 150 points - enough for a big downpayment on another whole unit of regular troops. I still don't have many games under my belt, and none of them more complex than some 400-500 point CP type stuff, so I don't have any experience to draw on. Will the added wound saves from the toughness bump pay off? Or should I shelve fluffiness in favor of economy, and just give everyone normal ol' IoCGs to Deep Strike termies onto, confining the Nurgly goodness to my HQs and Plague Marine units? Hope you guys can give me some useful feedback, thanks in advance. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/141617-purge-problems/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
chillin Posted July 21, 2008 Share Posted July 21, 2008 Well like you've said IoN is expensive so the only way it makes sense to use is on unit w/ alot of models, that way the price of +1T per model is cheaper. I wouldn't worry about bikes as they are T5 anyway and you can model them as nurgled up as you want. As for termi's would I buy IoN for 3 or even 5 termi's ? No way. 8-10 maybe, other then that I would use IoCG or no icon. Again w/ the 2+/5+ termi's are plenty tough, so it would not seem outta place to paint/model them up like "the Purge" even though they didn't have IoN Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/141617-purge-problems/#findComment-1637231 Share on other sites More sharing options...
flintlocklaser Posted July 22, 2008 Author Share Posted July 22, 2008 Thanks for the feedback chillin. I think I'm on the same page as you with regards to the numbers needed to make IoN worth it. I'd even considered fielding some oversized infantry units (near or max size) to make the pro-rated cost of the Icon more reasonable; but I want this army to be mechanized, not footsloggy, so that was out too. But still, if I field my termies and chosen in big groups I will probably spring for the IoN, otherwise I'll stick with the IoCG. 150 points is a lot to spend on satisfying fluff... Thanks again! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/141617-purge-problems/#findComment-1637924 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smurfalypse Posted July 22, 2008 Share Posted July 22, 2008 There is another way to look at this, and it is from the "fluff" standpoint and not the exact written up rules angle. You could just throw an IoN in every unit because well, its what you think the purge do. It is a very expensive icon and i understand the need to have bigger units, but to be honest i would try to fit it in about everything possible if able. Just my two cents :P Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/141617-purge-problems/#findComment-1637930 Share on other sites More sharing options...
flintlocklaser Posted July 22, 2008 Author Share Posted July 22, 2008 There is another way to look at this, and it is from the "fluff" standpoint and not the exact written up rules angle. You could just throw an IoN in every unit because well, its what you think the purge do. It is a very expensive icon and i understand the need to have bigger units, but to be honest i would try to fit it in about everything possible if able. Just my two cents :P Normally I would be right there with you, but the IoN is just way, way too expensive for the way I want to set up my list. 10-man CSM units, even tricked out with AspChamp/PF and 2 specials, plus a havocback - the IoN is a fifth of their overall price - one fourth if I leave the AspChamps at home. I can't justify that points expenditure for a fragile Icon bearer. If it was an old-school mark, that stayed with the whole unit regardless of casualties, I'd really consider it. I need to sit down and write up some real lists to get an idea of what my points will look like, but even if I keep the IoNs limited to one Chosen squad and two Termie squads, that's 130 points. Add in 3 troop blocks and I'm dropping 280pts on it - this is enough for an allied Plague Marine unit, or another CSM unit and more candy for everyone. It just doesn't feel like it's worth that huge amount of points. If there's someone out there that has game experience that could convince me that 4 ten-man CSM squads with +1T are better than 5 ten-man squads without it, I'd love to hear it, because I want to make it a fluffy Purge list (or at least my idea of what a fluffy Purge list is, heh). But my mathhammer just can't justify it as an army-wide choice. And fluff-wise, I have no problem with the more elite troops (termies, Chosen) being more devoted to Nurgle than the rank-and-file are. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/141617-purge-problems/#findComment-1637938 Share on other sites More sharing options...
mannstein Posted July 22, 2008 Share Posted July 22, 2008 Unless you regularly play against snipers (assassins, farseers and anything else that targets a single model in a unit) the chances are your icon bearers will actually survive until the unit is almost gone anyway, by which time the effect of losing him will be minimal. Even the new wound allocation rules don't really have that much effect unless your opponent is in the habit of causing more than 10 wounds on a unit every time they attack you..... In general, the crappy "balancing" job they did on the new codex appears based around 10-man units and nothing else, meaning taking less than or more than ten each have penalties attached to them. Even the template rules don't mean you have to remove the stick-holder if he is under the template. The icon rules still suck, though.... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/141617-purge-problems/#findComment-1638473 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Nihm Posted July 23, 2008 Share Posted July 23, 2008 I'd say it's worth it on any unit numbering 7+ models, that at the same time isn't loaded with other upgrades&weapons. My 2 Kraks. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/141617-purge-problems/#findComment-1638817 Share on other sites More sharing options...
the jeske Posted July 23, 2008 Share Posted July 23, 2008 . Even the new wound allocation rules don't really have that much effect unless your opponent is in the habit of causing more than 10 wounds on a unit every time they attack you thats only true if your opponent has 0 hvy special weapons . his squads are not joined by power weapon armed IC/HQ . his army is not a hth one . Also from what i noticed is that most armies are build around doing those 8/10 saves per turn . thats why its better to take PM . same cost better options . Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/141617-purge-problems/#findComment-1639465 Share on other sites More sharing options...
flintlocklaser Posted July 23, 2008 Author Share Posted July 23, 2008 thats why its better to take PM . same cost better options . And this is the problem. I want to field troops from this chapter, not PMs/DGs. But unless I field them cheap, I'm not sure there's a good reason to. So I guess it'll be 3 or 4 units of 10, IoCG, 2 specials - or maybe even something like 1 special and a HB or AC for some stand-off power once they hit their objectives. Not sure if it's worth fielding AspChamps in these units or not. My gut instinct is to skip it, but we'll see. Thanks for all the feedback everyone, if nothing else I think I can start working on preliminary lists now. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/141617-purge-problems/#findComment-1639481 Share on other sites More sharing options...
chillin Posted July 23, 2008 Share Posted July 23, 2008 Not all PM's are DG. IMO, you could use units of PM (and unit's w IoN) and have a perfectly legit Purged army (and I'm a bit of a fluff Nazi). In fact I'm pretty sure Purged would have units of PM's in them, so using PM's is no problem. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/141617-purge-problems/#findComment-1639496 Share on other sites More sharing options...
flintlocklaser Posted July 23, 2008 Author Share Posted July 23, 2008 Not all PM's are DG. IMO, you could use units of PM (and unit's w IoN) and have a perfectly legit Purged army (and I'm a bit of a fluff Nazi). In fact I'm pretty sure Purged would have units of PM's in them, so using PM's is no problem. Now that's an interesting option. Use my plague marine minis, painted in a Purge (or modified Purge) color scheme, backed up by 'regular' Purge CSM units using IoCG. Might have to throw together a few test lists with this concept too! Thanks chillin! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/141617-purge-problems/#findComment-1639505 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smurfalypse Posted July 24, 2008 Share Posted July 24, 2008 Its never an issue to build an army based on fluff, no matter how hurtful the "point costs" are. I admit, i have bashed a huge amount of posts on this site dealing with word bearers and icons/cult units ect ect...If you want to run purge, do it right or run something else is kinda my point of view. You can run a death guard army if you want, but as soon as you take an icon of tzeentch on your terms its not longer a death guard list. That same logic applies to any chapter/legion specific list anyone writes up. Chillin has it right, you can take some plague marine units within the list and use bigger units to make the icon count for more in everything else. Hell to be honest, plague marines being probably the best troop choice for holding objectives in the game (even with the ap1/2 getting passed feel no pain). Nurgle raptors, terms, POSSESSED (OMG str 5, T 5, Feel no pain on a lucky roll, 5+ invuln....fairly uncool ;)) All these things you could do and be very very unique, this will also provide very memorable times for you and your opponents. Just my two cents bro. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/141617-purge-problems/#findComment-1640280 Share on other sites More sharing options...
flintlocklaser Posted July 24, 2008 Author Share Posted July 24, 2008 If you want to run purge, do it right or run something else is kinda my point of view. You can run a death guard army if you want, but as soon as you take an icon of tzeentch on your terms its not longer a death guard list. Well, I never mentioned adding an IoT. For me, what I consider "right" for a Purge list is IoN, IoCG, or no Icons at all. The main problem I have is that the type of list I want (mechanized with heavy termie support) seems to be pressing me towards IoN for termies and Chosen only, while the rank and file get IoCG. I don't consider that unfluffy - no other god-specific Icons, no 'drafted' Berzerkers, just IoCGs and IoNs on every unit. Chillin has it right, you can take some plague marine units within the list and use bigger units to make the icon count for more in everything else. Hell to be honest, plague marines being probably the best troop choice for holding objectives in the game (even with the ap1/2 getting passed feel no pain). Nurgle raptors, terms, POSSESSED (OMG str 5, T 5, Feel no pain on a lucky roll, 5+ invuln....fairly uncool :)) All these things you could do and be very very unique, this will also provide very memorable times for you and your opponents. Just my two cents bro. The problem with this otherwise good idea is that I always used to feel that the cult units should be kept in their 'parent' legions. I know this isn't the way 5th ed is heading, but that's the way I always read things. Besides, isn't it going to be unfluffy for my PM units to all be 10 men strong and mounted in Rhinos? The more I think about it, the more I think I'll just stick with 10 man Rhinos full of CSMs with IoCG, and then all the 'impressive' guys can have the IoNs. If I was going to do a big, footslogging list I'd buy IoN for everyone, but I wanted this list to be mechanized. Over the weekend I will throw together some sample lists and post them in the Army List subforum for help/advice. Thanks again everyone. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/141617-purge-problems/#findComment-1640647 Share on other sites More sharing options...
chillin Posted July 24, 2008 Share Posted July 24, 2008 The problem with this otherwise good idea is that I always used to feel that the cult units should be kept in their 'parent' legions. Besides, isn't it going to be unfluffy for my PM units to all be 10 men strong and mounted in Rhinos? - But the purged ARE a cult army, the cult of nurgle. It's not like nurgle turned the DG and then stopped trying to corrupt s/m. Nurgle (and the rest of the chaos gods) are constantly corrupting s/m. The s/m that become the most correpted and catch his plagues are called PM's, get fnp, T5 etc. DG were the first but hardly the last. Run it by the guys down in the nurgle forum, I'm sure you'll get the same response Really you have to decide what feels right for your army (hell I'm a BL player who used no mark or cult troops in 3.5 dex, only MoCU). But I can't imagine anyone saying that PM's were unfluffy for a nurgle army, be it DG, Purged, or the Cleaved (except for you maybe ;) ). Whether you use 7 or 10 man squads would be up to you, PM's are fine at 7. The fluff sz (or used to anyway) that DG made limited use of rinos, the Purged might be all mech as far as anyone knows as the fluff is limited. Which ever way you go, good luck w/ you project. :wub: Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/141617-purge-problems/#findComment-1640859 Share on other sites More sharing options...
flintlocklaser Posted July 25, 2008 Author Share Posted July 25, 2008 The problem with this otherwise good idea is that I always used to feel that the cult units should be kept in their 'parent' legions. Besides, isn't it going to be unfluffy for my PM units to all be 10 men strong and mounted in Rhinos? But I can't imagine anyone saying that PM's were unfluffy for a nurgle army, be it DG, Purged, or the Cleaved (except for you maybe :lol: ). Hehe, I'm not saying some PMs would be unfluffy, I just think it wouldn't feel right for my main foot troops to all be PMs. I still want to make a unit or two of them as sort of 'semi-elites,' and then I can make the decision as to whether they're Purge PMs or a detachment of actual DGs sent to bolster these 'new kids.' Whether you use 7 or 10 man squads would be up to you, PM's are fine at 7. The fluff sz (or used to anyway) that DG made limited use of rinos, the Purged might be all mech as far as anyone knows as the fluff is limited. I've decided that if/when I do field PMs the least I could do is use the fluffy 7 count. I will probably give them Rhinos regardless, I know the traditional DG only used them in a limited role, but these guys will either be Purge PMs, who will follow the mech theme of the rest of my warband; or specialist DGs who'd have been those old-school 'Fast Attack' Rhino-riders. Which ever way you go, good luck w/ you project. :P Thanks! I will be out of town over the weekend, but the wheels are turning; expect a ton more annoying questions/army list issues when I return, heh. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/141617-purge-problems/#findComment-1640898 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drudge Dreadnought Posted July 25, 2008 Share Posted July 25, 2008 I agree with you flintlock that it does not seem so fluffy to have purged with lots of/only plague marines. This is because only the most elite nurgle marines are plague marines, and only Mortarian and some black legion sorcerers know the secrets of creating plague marines. I don't remember where i read that, i think it was the codex or somewhere on the old GW site? But yeah, so the Purge and Cleaved are renegade chapter, i doubt they'd have many plague marines yet. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/141617-purge-problems/#findComment-1641021 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cmndr Sarpedon Posted July 25, 2008 Share Posted July 25, 2008 I agree with you flintlock that it does not seem so fluffy to have purged with lots of/only plague marines. This is because only the most elite nurgle marines are plague marines, and only Mortarian and some black legion sorcerers know the secrets of creating plague marines. I don't remember where i read that, i think it was the codex or somewhere on the old GW site? But yeah, so the Purge and Cleaved are renegade chapter, i doubt they'd have many plague marines yet. You are correct in saying that only Mortarian and the odd sorcerer (most in the service of the black legion) know how to make plague marines. But in this army shouldnt have IoCG IMO, nurgle only. And more than 1/2 units of plague marines does seem unfluffy to me. I'd have used mark of nurgle with bikes though, nothing like 6 T6 bikes charging into a guard squad..... I agree with Nihm IoN is worth putting in a squad of 10, give them that and they should be able to deal with most forces they can meet. Even if you don't give them a mark you can still paint them all snotted up. Fluff = Fun Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/141617-purge-problems/#findComment-1641308 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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