Ambro Posted July 22, 2008 Share Posted July 22, 2008 I just noticed in the DH codex that chimeras count as opened topped if you use the top hatch as a firing point and none of the transported models have a armour save better than 4+. In the 5th edition this now means that all transported models may fire out the vehicle and that models may disembark anywhere within 2" of the vehicle, it also means that the vehicle has to get +1 on the damage result table but that seems a small price to pay. Im not sure if this is how the rule was intended to work but now with the new rules and by following RAW this now seems to be the case. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/141663-chimera-transports/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gaz1858 Posted July 22, 2008 Share Posted July 22, 2008 Yes thats true. Also applicable to Rhinos. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/141663-chimera-transports/#findComment-1637843 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aidoneus Posted July 22, 2008 Share Posted July 22, 2008 Hahahahaha... I foresee many Chimera+10PAGKs+2 Psycannons+Inquisitor+Psycannon combos. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/141663-chimera-transports/#findComment-1638095 Share on other sites More sharing options...
nighthawks Posted July 22, 2008 Share Posted July 22, 2008 Just wondering - given the wording in C:DH, how is this different than in 4th ed? there's a disagreement between the codex (takes precedence) which is the same as now and the 4thBBB regarding open-topped status and duration of that status. as the Codex statement is defaulted to, and the rules regarding shooting from and disembarkion from open topped vehicles hasn't changed much, if at all, then I don't see how this is any different than it was. It seems obvious enough what the intent was supposed to be (or be changed to in 4th: open topped when shot at in following player's turn if any model's best Sv is 4+ or worse - as stated for the firing points in 4th) but I can't find anything (yet) in the RAW that disagrees with the reading of the OP. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/141663-chimera-transports/#findComment-1638354 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Borys Posted July 22, 2008 Share Posted July 22, 2008 I just noticed in the DH codex that chimeras count as opened topped if you use the top hatch as a firing point and none of the transported models have a armour save better than 4+. Keep on reading .... 3+, not 4+. And check in exactly what Phase you disembark ... Borys Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/141663-chimera-transports/#findComment-1638366 Share on other sites More sharing options...
SeattleDV8 Posted July 22, 2008 Share Posted July 22, 2008 Nighthawks is correct but the wording is reversed . save of 3 or better not open topped.... or save of 4 or worse open topped (for the +1 on the damage table) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/141663-chimera-transports/#findComment-1638392 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ambro Posted July 22, 2008 Author Share Posted July 22, 2008 I just noticed in the DH codex that chimeras count as opened topped if you use the top hatch as a firing point and none of the transported models have a armour save better than 4+. Keep on reading .... 3+, not 4+. And check in exactly what Phase you disembark ... Borys Actually it is 4+. If you read the sentence I wrote more carefully I think that will clear up your misunderstanding. Also there is no mention of phases in the rule so I dont see what relevance your second question has. Try reading before you post next time. :mellow: Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/141663-chimera-transports/#findComment-1638410 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ambro Posted July 22, 2008 Author Share Posted July 22, 2008 Just wondering - given the wording in C:DH, how is this different than in 4th ed? there's a disagreement between the codex (takes precedence) which is the same as now and the 4thBBB regarding open-topped status and duration of that status. as the Codex statement is defaulted to, and the rules regarding shooting from and disembarkion from open topped vehicles hasn't changed much, if at all, then I don't see how this is any different than it was. It seems obvious enough what the intent was supposed to be (or be changed to in 4th: open topped when shot at in following player's turn if any model's best Sv is 4+ or worse - as stated for the firing points in 4th) but I can't find anything (yet) in the RAW that disagrees with the reading of the OP. I just checked and the open topped rule in the fourth edition does not state that models may disembark within 2" of any point and that all models may fire out. So it seems obvious that the original statement was intended for the 4th edition rules and so playing the 5th edition versions is not within the spirit of the rules. I imagine they will release a FAQ correcting this but even so in the meantime we should all play the rule as written enless of course you and your opponent agree otherwise, although I wouldnt get used to it as I imagine it will eventually get FAQ'd. Also just out of curiosity are DH the only army to benefit from this or are there any other armies which will also benefit ? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/141663-chimera-transports/#findComment-1638422 Share on other sites More sharing options...
nighthawks Posted July 23, 2008 Share Posted July 23, 2008 Just wondering - given the wording in C:DH, how is this different than in 4th ed? my post... I just checked and the open topped rule in the fourth edition does not state that models may disembark within 2" of any point and that all models may fire out. So it seems obvious that the original statement was intended for the 4th edition rules and so playing the 5th edition versions is not within the spirit of the rules. I imagine they will release a FAQ correcting this but even so in the meantime we should all play the rule as written enless of course you and your opponent agree otherwise, although I wouldnt get used to it as I imagine it will eventually get FAQ'd. Also just out of curiosity are DH the only army to benefit from this or are there any other armies which will also benefit ? yes, the 4th ed does, not that it currently matters (PM me if you want to debate that) - and the rule in the DH codex was written for 3/"3.5" ed. either way, the RAW is pretty clear - the vehicle "will count as open topped" - so you get the dismbark, all passengers shooting in any direction, etc... as explained in the (5th)BBB on Pg 70 Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/141663-chimera-transports/#findComment-1638569 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commander Gitsnik Posted July 23, 2008 Share Posted July 23, 2008 I just noticed in the DH codex that chimeras count as opened topped if you use the top hatch as a firing point and none of the transported models have a armour save better than 4+. Keep on reading .... 3+, not 4+. And check in exactly what Phase you disembark ... Borys Actually it is 4+. If you read the sentence I wrote more carefully I think that will clear up your misunderstanding. Also there is no mention of phases in the rule so I dont see what relevance your second question has. Try reading before you post next time. ;) Borys has it right. We could discuss the semantics of "better than 4+" all day long but let's just settle for misinterpretation on both sides and let it die. I'm guessing Ambro that you're suggesting that the chimera is then counted as open topped for the duration of the game turn (i.e. all players turns till it is yours again)? If so then I would be inclined to agree with you, if later on you are shot up you can disembark anywhere around the vehicle rather than just the access hatches. My $0.02 AU (disjointed no doubt because of my lack of caffeine intake). Cheers CG Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/141663-chimera-transports/#findComment-1638580 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyber_Wulf Posted July 23, 2008 Share Posted July 23, 2008 hmmm as far as i was aware you only counted as open topped for your opponents player turn at which point the plucky guys riding the chimera jump back down the hatch after getting shot at. they then have the option to open the hatch again if they werent stunned by damage or vaporised. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/141663-chimera-transports/#findComment-1638985 Share on other sites More sharing options...
nighthawks Posted July 23, 2008 Share Posted July 23, 2008 hmmm as far as i was aware you only counted as open topped for your opponents player turn at which point the plucky guys riding the chimera jump back down the hatch after getting shot at. they then have the option to open the hatch again if they werent stunned by damage or vaporised. yeah, all of that info is described in the 4th ed rule book in various paragraphs - the entry in C:DH is much moor loosely worded, and given the rules change, the only thing we have to go on. of course, there is NO time limit/duration given so, in theory, the tank could be considered open topped from the time transported models use the top hatch FP until the game ends or the vehicle is destroyed.... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/141663-chimera-transports/#findComment-1639002 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ambro Posted July 23, 2008 Author Share Posted July 23, 2008 I just noticed in the DH codex that chimeras count as opened topped if you use the top hatch as a firing point and none of the transported models have a armour save better than 4+. Keep on reading .... 3+, not 4+. And check in exactly what Phase you disembark ... Borys Actually it is 4+. If you read the sentence I wrote more carefully I think that will clear up your misunderstanding. Also there is no mention of phases in the rule so I dont see what relevance your second question has. Try reading before you post next time. ;) Borys has it right. We could discuss the semantics of "better than 4+" all day long but let's just settle for misinterpretation on both sides and let it die. I'm guessing Ambro that you're suggesting that the chimera is then counted as open topped for the duration of the game turn (i.e. all players turns till it is yours again)? If so then I would be inclined to agree with you, if later on you are shot up you can disembark anywhere around the vehicle rather than just the access hatches. My $0.02 AU (disjointed no doubt because of my lack of caffeine intake). Cheers CG The ruling in the DH codex states the vehicle will count as open topped if the Rhino or Chimera are using the top hatch as a fire point and that if any of the saving throws of the passengers are worse than 3+. The statement I used in the first post was better than 4+ which means the same thing as worse than 3+. Also there is no mention in the ruling about phases, personally I would play it that if you decide you are going to use the top hatch as a firing point then you would tell your opponent before the game begins and then the vehicle would remain as open topped for the duration of the battle. It would seem unfair if you decide the vehicle has suddently become open topped when you want to disembark or shoot, but then as soon as your opponent starts shooting at you decide your little dudes go back into the hatch and the vehicle becomes normal again. The only exception to this would be that if your troops disembark from the tranport then the chimera would become normal as they would obviously close that hatch when they get out. That is just how I would play it but obvioulsy the rule is badly written so is open to many different interpretations. Like I said originally though personally I am not even going to bother playing this rule as I reckon it will be FAQ'd very soon as it quite clearly is not within the spirit of how the rules were intended. Although if your opponent decides they want to play it then I guess there is not much you can do about it at the moment as they are just following the rules. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/141663-chimera-transports/#findComment-1639159 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Imriel Posted July 23, 2008 Share Posted July 23, 2008 "A Rhino or Chimara using its top hatch as a firing point count as open-topped if the saving throw of any of its passangers is worse then 3+ (30, C:DH)." Technicly speaking, that means they only count as open-topped while actively using the firing point, i.e. while firing. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/141663-chimera-transports/#findComment-1639190 Share on other sites More sharing options...
nighthawks Posted July 23, 2008 Share Posted July 23, 2008 Imriel: I understand what you are saying, and I tend to agree, the rule seems abusrd re: armour pen and disembarkation, particularly since there are access points on the vehicles (and both are well known to NOT be open topped in all other references). but the wording is "...will count as open..." which makes it a bit more vague (though grmatically speaking it can still meet your interpretation). HOWEVER, I believe the intention is to make 4+ and lesser models more suseptible to vehicle damage as a result of using the hatch (4th ed reasoning, yes), not to allow all lightly armoured troops to shoot in any direction and restrict more heavily armoured troops to firing of one weapon through a single, non-disclosed firing point (hatch?) as would be the singluar effect using your interpretation. this would mean the open topped effect has to last throguh the following player turn shooting phase. As a time limit is not specified, and as my belief of the intention of a rule is not a valid argument, anyhow - I would agree to either the all-out open topped (once or if the hatch is used) reading OR the 4+ and less crowd may shoot as if the vehicle were open topped (and that is the only effect) reading. both seem equally well supported in the wording. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/141663-chimera-transports/#findComment-1639402 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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