Feel No Pain (5th Ed.)

[Yukka]

It has come to my attention that I have not been using the FNP rules in the last 2 fights I have played with my Plague Marines. I plan on correcting this today (got a game planned)..

 

I have a question (thinking aloud here as well).

 

Feel no Pain rules say that it cannot be used after weapons that cause instant death such as weapons with high strength or after receiving hits from weapons "against which no armor save can ever be taken".

 

Against an eldar sniper rifle if the "to hit" roll is high enough then its ap1 and that means no FnP.

 

Also if a shot is rending then it is treated as AP2 and that means no FnP.

 

But if attacked by a Reaper Launcher does the AP3 hit mean no FnP for a Plague Marine with a 3+ armor save? It isnt a weapon against which "no armor save can ever be taken" because for example a terminator could take the hit on its armor but a Plague Marine couldnt make a save against it..

 

Can FnP be used against weapons that are not AP1 or AP2 but still high enough to wound with no armor save?

[Wander]

Only AP 1 and AP 2 weapons meet the criteria "against which no armor save can ever be taken". AP 3 weapons do not disallow *all* armor saves.

 

Note that the answer would be the same even if Artificer, Terminator, etc armor did not exist at all and the best armor save in the game was 3+ Power Armor; this is because the rulebook specifically states that the *best* armor save that is possible is 2+; therefore, AP 3 weapons still wouldn't eliminate all possible armor saves.

 

The armor the model is actually wearing is irrelevant for determining if FnP can be checked.

 

Therefore, the list of attacks that disallow FnP include:

 

Instant-death attacks (Warp Vortex, Force Weapon, hit with S > 2x T weapons, etc).

AP 1, 2 attacks (Melta, Plasma, Rending on a 6, etc).

Power Weapons, including Power Fists.

Perils of the Warp.

..etc

[Yukka]

awesome. i look forward to using it lots :mellow:

 

i also think im going to buy some more plague marines..

[Praeger]

Ill have to re-read this - but im pritty sure its a unit to unit thing.

 

Why?

 

Becouse by your reasoning NO weapons can be rending due to inv saves (this is due to some units having there "armour save" becoming inv)

 

The real point of the rule is simply that if YOUR unit cant take an armour save, then it cant get FNP - but like I said I will have to double check.

[Wander]

Invulnerable saves aren't armor saves.

 

Some armor grants an "armor save"

Some wargear grants an "invulnerable save"

Some abilities grant an "invulnerable save"

Some armor grants an "invulnerable save"

Some wargear or abilities grant a "cover save"

Some armor improves your "cover save"

Some abilities or wargear improve your "armor save"

 

All saves are of only one type, and the types are currently Cover, Armor, and Invulnerable; if a rule references "Armor Saves", the other two types aren't considered, no matter what the source of the save is.

 

For example, Harlequins wear "armor" that grants a "cover save"; this means that the AP of the weapon doesn't matter, but flamers, which ignore "cover saves", ignore the save granted by their armor. Similarly, the "armor" grants no save in CC, unlike normal armor, because cover saves aren't taken in CC.

 

As another example, Terminator armor explictly grants two different kinds of saves: One is a 2+ "armor save" and the other is a 5+ "invulnerable save". Since a model is forbidden from having 2 "armor saves" in the rules, this naturally means that the 5+ "invulnerable save" is not an armor save.

 

The only type of save you can have more than one of is "invulnerable" (think Terminator Chaplain: Rosarius and Termiantor Armor), but you can't have more than one "cover" or "armor" save, and you can only ever take one save per wound, no matter how many you're entitled to.

[Praeger]

Your missing the point :huh:

 

Its a very slippery slope to say that its only weapons that allow no armour saves from any unit that will cause the loss of FNP.

 

like i said, there are ARMOUR saves which ACT like inv saves - they are still by their wording armour saves, but they can be taken against all weapons just LIKE inv saves.

 

Therfore by the original post there is no weapon in the whole game that stops FNP.

 

Obviously this is wrong and so we go back to the start and the simple easy answer.

 

Any weapon that stops THAT unit from getting an armour save will also stop FNP - normally this will be all AP1 and AP2 weapons, but can also include AP3 weapons if the units save is only 3+

[Wander]

Your missing the point :)

 

like i said, there are ARMOUR saves which ACT like inv saves - they are still by their wording armour saves, but they can be taken against all weapons just LIKE inv saves.

 

No, the entire point of my post is that there's no such thing as an armor save that is invulnerable.

 

Armor grants EITHER an armor save, OR an invulnerable save, OR one of each.

 

There's no "invulnerable armor save". "Armor save" means a very specific thing: It is a type of save that can be taken against shooting and CC and is negated by power weapons and ranged weapon AP.

 

"Armor save" isn't "a save that is granted by armor"; it's a specific category of save.

 

In short:

 

"Armor saves" can be granted to a model by armor, wargear, or special rules. When a save is an "armor save", it has certain rules: It can be negated by power weapons or a low enough AP, or by being bypassed by a special rule (Perils of the Warp, Mind War, etc)

 

"Invulnerable saves" can be granted by armor, wargear, or special rules. When a save is "invulnerable", it cannot be negated by any weapon qualities (power or AP), and can only be negated by bypassing it with a special rule (Perils of the Warp, Mind War, etc)

 

"Cover saves" can be granted by armor, wargear, or special rules. When a save is "cover", it cannot be negated by AP in shooting, but cover saves are never taken in CC. It can also be bypassed by template or ordnance barrage weapons, or special rules (Perils of the Warp, Mind War, etc)

 

Those are the three types of saves, and all saves are of only one type. It's unfortunate that "Armor Saves" are called that, because it's a confusing nomenclature, but the basic concept is that armor, wargear and rules grant the model a certain category of save. Just because a save is granted by an Iron Halo (a piece of wargear) doesn't make it a "Wargear Save", and just because Rune Armor grants a save, doesn't make it an "Armor Save".

[Tfcdogbert]

Armour isnt synonimous with armour saves, an armour save is just a type of save, not a save granted by armour and theres a key difference that needs to be explored, there are 3 classes of saves, armour saves, invulnerable saves and cover saves, not all are granted by what their namesake says they are, armour isnt allways granted by physical armour, cover not allways by a physical rock.

 

Only a weapon that ignores all kinds of "Armour saves" which doesnt mean all types of armour (the key thing here) it just means all types of saves that are classified as armour saves will dissalow Feel No Pain.

 

Edit: Curses wander, you got there while i was typing it out :).

[werewolf_nr]

Praeger, the only senario that I can think of that comes anything close to your statement would be that Act of Faith that grants the sisters an invlun save "equal to" their armor save.

 

IIRC.

[Tfcdogbert]

Praeger, the only senario that I can think of that comes anything close to your statement would be that Act of Faith that grants the sisters an invlun save "equal to" their armor save.

 

IIRC.

 

That isnt an armour save that acts like an invulnerable, thats an invulnerable save granted by a special rule that is dependant on factor X, like faith in the Emperor trait for the SM dex grants a 6+, its an entirely seperate save.

[Imriel]

Your missing the point :huh:

Its a very slippery slope to say that its only weapons that allow no armour saves from any unit that will cause the loss of FNP.

 

like i said, there are ARMOUR saves which ACT like inv saves - they are still by their wording armour saves, but they can be taken against all weapons just LIKE inv saves.

 

Therfore by the original post there is no weapon in the whole game that stops FNP.

 

Obviously this is wrong and so we go back to the start and the simple easy answer.

 

Any weapon that stops THAT unit from getting an armour save will also stop FNP - normally this will be all AP1 and AP2 weapons, but can also include AP3 weapons if the units save is only 3+

 

"Niether can it be used against wounds from AP1 and AP2 weapons, power weapons and any other weapon against which no amour can ever be taken (like wounds from power fists, Dreadknought close combat weapons, rending weapons that roll a 6, Perils of the Warp, failed dangerous terrain test, etc) (75, BBB)." Seems Clear enough to me that its only attacks that allow no Armour saves, not just attacks that beat the Armour save of the model.

 

Praeger, the only senario that I can think of that comes anything close to your statement would be that Act of Faith that grants the sisters an invlun save "equal to" their armor save.

 

IIRC.

 

That isnt an armour save that acts like an invulnerable, thats an invulnerable save granted by a special rule that is dependant on factor X, like faith in the Emperor trait for the SM dex grants a 6+, its an entirely seperate save.

 

The only time I can think of that had an Armour save treated as an Invulnerable save would be 4th's Turbo Boost rule, but that doidn't carry over to 5th.

[HotSoup]

Armour isnt synonimous with armour saves, an armour save is just a type of save, not a save granted by armour and theres a key difference that needs to be explored, there are 3 classes of saves, armour saves, invulnerable saves and cover saves, not all are granted by what their namesake says they are, armour isnt allways granted by physical armour, cover not allways by a physical rock.

 

Only a weapon that ignores all kinds of "Armour saves" which doesnt mean all types of armour (the key thing here) it just means all types of saves that are classified as armour saves will dissalow Feel No Pain.

 

Edit: Curses wander, you got there while i was typing it out :huh:.

I may be being thick, but you didn't come out and say it, so I just want to be sure. From what I gain from your post, AP3 does not prevent FnP, but I want to be sure.

[Praeger]

The only time I can think of that had an Armour save treated as an Invulnerable save would be 4th's Turbo Boost rule, but that doidn't carry over to 5th.

 

That was actualy the one i was thinking of - since i dont play with bikes I had assumed it had come through the same (havnt bothered to read it as i dont use them)

 

If that is not the case any more, then you would be right and i withdraw my argument :)

[Tfcdogbert]

Armour isnt synonimous with armour saves, an armour save is just a type of save, not a save granted by armour and theres a key difference that needs to be explored, there are 3 classes of saves, armour saves, invulnerable saves and cover saves, not all are granted by what their namesake says they are, armour isnt allways granted by physical armour, cover not allways by a physical rock.

 

Only a weapon that ignores all kinds of "Armour saves" which doesnt mean all types of armour (the key thing here) it just means all types of saves that are classified as armour saves will dissalow Feel No Pain.

 

Edit: Curses wander, you got there while i was typing it out :D.

I may be being thick, but you didn't come out and say it, so I just want to be sure. From what I gain from your post, AP3 does not prevent FnP, but I want to be sure.

 

Thats pretty much it yeah.

[Imriel]

The only time I can think of that had an Armour save treated as an Invulnerable save would be 4th's Turbo Boost rule, but that doidn't carry over to 5th.

 

That was actualy the one i was thinking of - since i dont play with bikes I had assumed it had come through the same (havnt bothered to read it as i dont use them)

 

If that is not the case any more, then you would be right and i withdraw my argument ;)

 

turbo boosting now provides a 3+ cover save instead of treating the models armor save as invulnerable.

[Dourine]

Woke up at about 4 last night and realized that plaguebearers are never allowed an armor save, because they don't have one. lol

 

Obvious oversight, but just a funny thought.

[SeattleDV8]

the apothecary also uses the same rules...no saving wounds from AP1-2